Is criminal behavior determined by genetics

[iamwhatiseem]

Blacks are what they are because of the racist/short-sided social engineering of liberal social policies of the 1950's - 80's. PERIOD.
You collect up ANY group of people, pack them like sardines in housing projects away from the rest of society, give them just enough free stuff to sustain themselves without having to get a job..... and you would see the exact same behavior.
I don't care who person is, if they have nothing to do all day, surrounded by people with nothing to do all day - trouble is the only result.

They exhibit the same behavior no matter where they are in the world.
Blacks in England commit crimes at nearly three times the rate of their population rate.

Now I have no doubt the liberal policies you describe are a disaster.

Nicholas Wade Takes on the Regime - American Renaissance

That is not true.
Numerous studies have shown that when whites are in equal social upbringing, fatherless, poor, in inner city areas - they commit the same high % of crime. As well as when blacks are raised like most white people - has a father in their lives, middle class in more suburban neighborhoods - their crime rates/graduation rates/income is equal to whites.
It is not their skin color. It is a self-defeating culture of 70% born w/o a meaningful relationship with a father, mothers with addictions and supported by social programs that enable that life style.

Point us to one of these studies....got a link?

BTW no one said it was because of their skin color.

Here ...a start...

Study: Crime rates linked to out-of-wedlock births

A study in the latest issue of The Journal of Law and Economics finds a link between out-of-wedlock births and rates of murder and other crimes.
-------

According to the study, in the years from 1965 to 2002, higher rates of out-of-wedlock births in a given year correlate with higher crime rates roughly 20 years later, when members of that birth cohort had become adults. The findings suggest that children born out of wedlock may receive lower educational and other resource investments from their parents, and may therefore be more likely to commit crimes as adults, say the study’s authors, economists Todd D. Kendall, of the consulting firm Compass Lexecon, and Robert Tamura of Clemson University.

What you are essentially claiming is that poverty produces crime....that has been debunked long ago....Poverty Doesn’t Cause Crime | National Review

No.
Poverty together with fatherlessness, social programs that enable joblessness and a self defeating culture produce crime.

 

[MacTheKnife]

They exhibit the same behavior no matter where they are in the world.
Blacks in England commit crimes at nearly three times the rate of their population rate.

Now I have no doubt the liberal policies you describe are a disaster.

Nicholas Wade Takes on the Regime - American Renaissance

That is not true.
Numerous studies have shown that when whites are in equal social upbringing, fatherless, poor, in inner city areas - they commit the same high % of crime. As well as when blacks are raised like most white people - has a father in their lives, middle class in more suburban neighborhoods - their crime rates/graduation rates/income is equal to whites.
It is not their skin color. It is a self-defeating culture of 70% born w/o a meaningful relationship with a father, mothers with addictions and supported by social programs that enable that life style.

Point us to one of these studies....got a link?

BTW no one said it was because of their skin color.

Here ...a start...

Study: Crime rates linked to out-of-wedlock births

A study in the latest issue of The Journal of Law and Economics finds a link between out-of-wedlock births and rates of murder and other crimes.
-------

According to the study, in the years from 1965 to 2002, higher rates of out-of-wedlock births in a given year correlate with higher crime rates roughly 20 years later, when members of that birth cohort had become adults. The findings suggest that children born out of wedlock may receive lower educational and other resource investments from their parents, and may therefore be more likely to commit crimes as adults, say the study’s authors, economists Todd D. Kendall, of the consulting firm Compass Lexecon, and Robert Tamura of Clemson University.

What you are essentially claiming is that poverty produces crime....that has been debunked long ago....Poverty Doesn’t Cause Crime | National Review

No.
Poverty together with fatherlessness, social programs that enable joblessness and a self defeating culture produce crime.

I know full well liberal policies have not helped blacks but to blame all their problems on liberal policies I think is a bit of a stretch.

 

[2aguy]

For as long as official statistics have been kept, blacks in white societies have been overrepresented in all indices of social pathology: crime, illegitimacy, poverty, school failure, and long-term unemployment. The conventional liberal explanation for this is white “racism,” past and present, which has forced blacks into self-destructive choices. More clear-headed observers, however, have sought a partial explanation in the low average IQ of blacks.

And of course we know....intelligence is determined by genes.

Intelligence genes discovered by scientists

Blacks are what they are because of the racist/short-sided social engineering of liberal social policies of the 1950's - 80's. PERIOD.
You collect up ANY group of people, pack them like sardines in housing projects away from the rest of society, give them just enough free stuff to sustain themselves without having to get a job..... and you would see the exact same behavior.
I don't care who person is, if they have nothing to do all day, surrounded by people with nothing to do all day - trouble is the only result.

They exhibit the same behavior no matter where they are in the world.
Blacks in England commit crimes at nearly three times the rate of their population rate.

Now I have no doubt the liberal policies you describe are a disaster.

Yet you are in error to assert that all races would react the same way blacks do if they were in the same situation that blacks have been due to governmental policies.


Nicholas Wade on race and genetics

'Different races behave differently because they are genetically different and genetic differences give rise to differences in social institutions. Wade says that the genetic differences are small—so small that they are almost undetectable at the individual level—but that once a group has been nudged even slightly in a particular genetic direction it may be receptive to institutions that completely change the nature of society.'



Nicholas Wade Takes on the Regime - American Renaissance

Check out of wedlock birth rates by race.......Black out of wedlock birthrates are over 75% now.......White out of wedlock birthrates are nearing 50%........when you have 75% of your children raised without fathers...in homes controlled by single teenage girls trying to raise children from different males........that is how crime is created...

The racist crap is dumb..........and a distraction that the left wing wants to use to keep people from fixing the problem...

Are you claiming that genetics is dumb?

Anyhow what you and all those articles are essentially saying is that poverty causes crime....which was debunked long ago.

Actually it is vice versa....crime causes poverty.

Huntley Haverstock, "Poverty Does Not Cause Crime" | Counter-Currents Publishing

Wrong....there was a lot of poverty during Roosevelt's Great Depression, but not a lot of crime. Why? Intact families, where grown men, raised young males to be men. You miss the point that intact homes are the best way to keep children from becoming criminals no matter what the economic situation.

 

[MacTheKnife]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

How a Young Black Man Became a Race Realist - American Renaissance

 

[2aguy]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

You have no idea what you are talking about.........and your focus on race is sad......

 

[MacTheKnife]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

You have no idea what you are talking about.........and your focus on race is sad......

Perhaps sad to you because you want to make excuses for Negroes....the only thing different about you is that you are willing to point out fallacious liberal social policies.

Biological differences between the races

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

How a Young Black Man Became a Race Realist - American Renaissance

Nope.
Take any child, regardless of race, plant them in a home with no father, a mother addicted to drugs, 3-4 siblings all by different men, raise that child in a lousy neighborhood surrounded by children all with the same conditions - and that child MIGHT - MAY have a 5% chance of a successful life.
PERIOD.

 

[2aguy]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

How a Young Black Man Became a Race Realist - American Renaissance

Nope.
Take any child, regardless of race, plant them in a home with no father, a mother addicted to drugs, 3-4 siblings all by different men, raise that child in a lousy neighborhood surrounded by children all with the same conditions - and that child MIGHT - MAY have a 5% chance of a successful life.
PERIOD.

Ben Shapiro discussed this on one of his shows. He pointed out that research showed that if you had a single mother raising children in a community of intact families, as we had in the past....the children had a good chance of making it out of the bad situation. The change happened when you had communities of single mothers raising children without fathers.......that made all the difference.....

Fatherless homes create crime and poverty......but if you focus on that, you wouldn't have a reason to take guns away from law abiding people .......

 

[MacTheKnife]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

How a Young Black Man Became a Race Realist - American Renaissance

Nope.
Take any child, regardless of race, plant them in a home with no father, a mother addicted to drugs, 3-4 siblings all by different men, raise that child in a lousy neighborhood surrounded by children all with the same conditions - and that child MIGHT - MAY have a 5% chance of a successful life.
PERIOD.

Someone else that is confusing cause and effect.

How did these people get into such miserable conditions in the first place? You and the other guy simply fail to understand the effects of genes on behavior.

Crime Causes Poverty........................Crime Causes Poverty

Is Crime Genetic? Scientists Don’t Know Because They’re Afraid to Ask

Is Crime Genetic? Scientists Don't Know Because They're Afraid to Ask - American Renaissance

The Biological Reality of Race - American Renaissance

 

[MacTheKnife]

You are confusing cause and effect.

Confusing Cause and Effect is a type of fallacy. Fallacy is when someone makes an argument but the argument is based on false or illogical reasoning

In your case instead of placing the blame where it really should be placed regarding pathological tendances in the Negroid Race...you want to claim the cause for the blacks behavior on government programs....however....you could place chinese, korean, german, russian people in the exact same situation as the blacks in America are in and have been in and their behavor would not be that of what the blacks demonstrate.

Historical examples....Jews were in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years.

Russians under Stalin had even more miserable ....much more miserable conditions than blacks have ever had in America.

Look at the N. Koreans....the worst living conditions in the world.

None of these groups react to such harsh conditons the way negroes do in America to much,much less harsh living conditions.

How a Young Black Man Became a Race Realist - American Renaissance

Nope.
Take any child, regardless of race, plant them in a home with no father, a mother addicted to drugs, 3-4 siblings all by different men, raise that child in a lousy neighborhood surrounded by children all with the same conditions - and that child MIGHT - MAY have a 5% chance of a successful life.
PERIOD.

Well, thanx for your opinion.

 

[MacTheKnife]

History proves the arguments of my 2 antagonists above to be wrong.

Here is just one example



'Starting with the California Alien Land Law of 1913, fourteen states passed laws preventing Japanese-American peasant farmers from owning land and property. These laws existed until 1952, when the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional. Add to this the internment of 120,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II, and it’s fair to say that the Japanese were given no bootstraps in America. Nevertheless, by 1970 census data showed Japanese-Americans out-earning Anglo-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Polish-Americans.14 For Asian-Americans on the whole, an analysis of wealth data from 1989 to 2013 predicted that their “median wealth soon will surpass the white median level.” If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites.

Nor can historical racism explain wealth disparities between groups of the same race. A 2015 survey of wealth in Boston found that the median black household had only 8 dollars of wealth. Newsweek reported this fact under the heading “Racism in Boston.” But the 8 dollar figure only pertained to black Bostonians of American ancestry; black Bostonians of Caribbean ancestry had 12,000 dollars of wealth, despite having identical rates of college graduation, only slightly higher incomes, and being equally black in the same city.

{snip}

It’s not looking good for the progressive narrative about the racial wealth gap. Still, there is a kernel of truth to it. Researchers at Brandeis followed a nationally representative set of 1,700 families from 1984 to 2009 and measured their wealth gains over that period. They concluded that inherited wealth and length of homeownership accounted for 5 percent and 27 percent, respectively, of the racial disparity in wealth gains. But even if that combined 32 percent could be automatically ascribed to historical racism (which it cannot), that would still leave 68 percent of the gap to be explained by other factors. In short, many commentators have zoomed in on the fraction of the story that can be told without discomfort but have ignored the rest.

* * *

Conspicuous by its absence in the progressive account of the racial wealth gap is any active role for blacks themselves. Reading Baradaran, Rothstein, and Coates, one gets the impression that there is nothing blacks could do to improve their lot—outside of asking the government for radical policy solutions. But there are things that blacks can do. Indeed, there are certain elements of black American culture that, if changed, would allow blacks to amass wealth to a degree that no government policy would be likely to match.

No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.

To what extent do poor spending habits explain the persistence of the wealth gap? Economists at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania asked this question after analyzing 16 years of nationally representative data from the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Consistent with the Nielsen data, they found that blacks with comparable incomes to whites spent 17 percent less on education, and 32 percent more (an extra $2300 per year in 2005 dollars) on ‘visible goods’—defined as cars, jewelry, and clothes. What’s more, “after controlling for visible spending,” they concluded that the “wealth gap between Blacks and Whites, conditional on permanent income, declines by 50 percent.” To be clear, that 50 percent figure doesn’t pertain to the total wealth gap, but to the proportion of the gap that remains after income is taken into account—which was 40 percent. The upshot: the fact that blacks spent more on cars, jewelry, and clothes explained fully 20 percent of the total racial wealth gap.

To make matters worse, spending patterns are just one part of a larger set of financial skills on which blacks lag behind. Researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis followed over 40,000 families from 1989 to 2013, tracking their wealth accumulation and financial decisions. They developed a financial health scale, ranging from 0 to 5, that measured the degree to which families made “routine financial health choices that contribute to wealth accumulation”—e.g., saving any amount of money, paying credit card bills on time, having a low debt-to-income ratio, etc. At 3.12, Asian families scored the highest, followed by whites at 3.11, Hispanics at 2.71, and blacks at 2.63.

{snip}

{snip} Talking honestly about harmful behavioral patterns is the only way to reliably correct them. {snip}

* * *

{snip}

{snip} It is no longer primarily racism that holds blacks back, but a set of cultural elements—some acquired from white southerners,18 some a consequence of historical racism,19 others a consequence of the political upheavals of the 1960s,20 and some which are mysterious in origin—that are ill-suited for success in a modern information economy. Thus, unfair as it may seem, blacks can now do more for themselves than either whites or the government can do for them.

{snip}

The salient question should never have been who to blame for blacks’ predicament, but who is able to fix it. If the problem were simply a lack of cash, then the government would be the ideal candidate. But if we learned anything from the explosion of violent crime and single motherhood following welfare expansion in the late 1960s, it was that cash transfers cannot solve a problem that the absence of cash didn’t cause. Herein lies one of the many issues with reparations: it would not address the root causes of black underachievement. {snip}

Those who agree that top-down cultural reform is naïve might still object that bottom-up reform is equally quixotic. How, exactly, does one go about changing something as complex and distributed as culture? On this point, the history of formerly lagging ethnic groups is instructive. Whether measured by rates of alcoholism, high school graduation, or income, Irish-Americans used to lag far behind other American ethnic groups.23 As one point of reference, the incarceration rate for Irish-Americans was five times higher than for German-Americans in 1904. The response? While some Irish leaders blamed society, others, notably those in the Catholic Church, launched an inward-looking campaign to change behavioral patterns within the Irish community.24 Similar efforts were made by acculturated German-American Jews, whose stern programs of assimilation for their less-cultured Eastern European co-religionists included giving them “pointed lessons on the use of soap and water,” according to Sowell.25

That’s not to say that the details of these particular self-help campaigns are either replicable or wise. It’s only to say that historical examples of successful self-help campaigns exist. By contrast, I do not know of a single instance in which an underachieving ethnic minority rose to economic prominence by asking the government for cash transfers, preferential policies in education and employment, or apologies for past injustices.' {snip}

by coleman hughes

{snip}

Coleman Hughes is an undergraduate philosophy major at Columbia University. His writing has been featured on Heterodox Academy’s blog as well as in the Columbia Spectator. You can follow him on Twitter @coldxman

{snip}

 

[iamwhatiseem]

History proves the arguments of my 2 antagonists above to be wrong.

Here is just one example



'Starting with the California Alien Land Law of 1913, fourteen states passed laws preventing Japanese-American peasant farmers from owning land and property. These laws existed until 1952, when the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional. Add to this the internment of 120,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II, and it’s fair to say that the Japanese were given no bootstraps in America. Nevertheless, by 1970 census data showed Japanese-Americans out-earning Anglo-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Polish-Americans.14 For Asian-Americans on the whole, an analysis of wealth data from 1989 to 2013 predicted that their “median wealth soon will surpass the white median level.” If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites.

Nor can historical racism explain wealth disparities between groups of the same race. A 2015 survey of wealth in Boston found that the median black household had only 8 dollars of wealth. Newsweek reported this fact under the heading “Racism in Boston.” But the 8 dollar figure only pertained to black Bostonians of American ancestry; black Bostonians of Caribbean ancestry had 12,000 dollars of wealth, despite having identical rates of college graduation, only slightly higher incomes, and being equally black in the same city.

{snip}

It’s not looking good for the progressive narrative about the racial wealth gap. Still, there is a kernel of truth to it. Researchers at Brandeis followed a nationally representative set of 1,700 families from 1984 to 2009 and measured their wealth gains over that period. They concluded that inherited wealth and length of homeownership accounted for 5 percent and 27 percent, respectively, of the racial disparity in wealth gains. But even if that combined 32 percent could be automatically ascribed to historical racism (which it cannot), that would still leave 68 percent of the gap to be explained by other factors. In short, many commentators have zoomed in on the fraction of the story that can be told without discomfort but have ignored the rest.

* * *

Conspicuous by its absence in the progressive account of the racial wealth gap is any active role for blacks themselves. Reading Baradaran, Rothstein, and Coates, one gets the impression that there is nothing blacks could do to improve their lot—outside of asking the government for radical policy solutions. But there are things that blacks can do. Indeed, there are certain elements of black American culture that, if changed, would allow blacks to amass wealth to a degree that no government policy would be likely to match.

No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.

To what extent do poor spending habits explain the persistence of the wealth gap? Economists at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania asked this question after analyzing 16 years of nationally representative data from the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Consistent with the Nielsen data, they found that blacks with comparable incomes to whites spent 17 percent less on education, and 32 percent more (an extra $2300 per year in 2005 dollars) on ‘visible goods’—defined as cars, jewelry, and clothes. What’s more, “after controlling for visible spending,” they concluded that the “wealth gap between Blacks and Whites, conditional on permanent income, declines by 50 percent.” To be clear, that 50 percent figure doesn’t pertain to the total wealth gap, but to the proportion of the gap that remains after income is taken into account—which was 40 percent. The upshot: the fact that blacks spent more on cars, jewelry, and clothes explained fully 20 percent of the total racial wealth gap.

To make matters worse, spending patterns are just one part of a larger set of financial skills on which blacks lag behind. Researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis followed over 40,000 families from 1989 to 2013, tracking their wealth accumulation and financial decisions. They developed a financial health scale, ranging from 0 to 5, that measured the degree to which families made “routine financial health choices that contribute to wealth accumulation”—e.g., saving any amount of money, paying credit card bills on time, having a low debt-to-income ratio, etc. At 3.12, Asian families scored the highest, followed by whites at 3.11, Hispanics at 2.71, and blacks at 2.63.

{snip}

{snip} Talking honestly about harmful behavioral patterns is the only way to reliably correct them. {snip}

* * *

{snip}

{snip} It is no longer primarily racism that holds blacks back, but a set of cultural elements—some acquired from white southerners,18 some a consequence of historical racism,19 others a consequence of the political upheavals of the 1960s,20 and some which are mysterious in origin—that are ill-suited for success in a modern information economy. Thus, unfair as it may seem, blacks can now do more for themselves than either whites or the government can do for them.

{snip}

The salient question should never have been who to blame for blacks’ predicament, but who is able to fix it. If the problem were simply a lack of cash, then the government would be the ideal candidate. But if we learned anything from the explosion of violent crime and single motherhood following welfare expansion in the late 1960s, it was that cash transfers cannot solve a problem that the absence of cash didn’t cause. Herein lies one of the many issues with reparations: it would not address the root causes of black underachievement. {snip}

Those who agree that top-down cultural reform is naïve might still object that bottom-up reform is equally quixotic. How, exactly, does one go about changing something as complex and distributed as culture? On this point, the history of formerly lagging ethnic groups is instructive. Whether measured by rates of alcoholism, high school graduation, or income, Irish-Americans used to lag far behind other American ethnic groups.23 As one point of reference, the incarceration rate for Irish-Americans was five times higher than for German-Americans in 1904. The response? While some Irish leaders blamed society, others, notably those in the Catholic Church, launched an inward-looking campaign to change behavioral patterns within the Irish community.24 Similar efforts were made by acculturated German-American Jews, whose stern programs of assimilation for their less-cultured Eastern European co-religionists included giving them “pointed lessons on the use of soap and water,” according to Sowell.25

That’s not to say that the details of these particular self-help campaigns are either replicable or wise. It’s only to say that historical examples of successful self-help campaigns exist. By contrast, I do not know of a single instance in which an underachieving ethnic minority rose to economic prominence by asking the government for cash transfers, preferential policies in education and employment, or apologies for past injustices.' {snip}

by coleman hughes

{snip}

Coleman Hughes is an undergraduate philosophy major at Columbia University. His writing has been featured on Heterodox Academy’s blog as well as in the Columbia Spectator. You can follow him on Twitter @coldxman

{snip}

In danger of participating in binary thinking, we can come to common ground instead of talking as if there are only two choices.
Does genealogy have a determinant effect on behavior? - of course it does. There are way-way too many anecdotal examples as well as concrete studies showing, for instance, adoptive children basically becoming their parents they never met. Even when they didn't know they were adopted growing up.
IMO, based soley on observation, black people are less economically ambitious. Going back in history, white races are a highly industrious people rarely satisfied with their surroundings..always seeking to improve/expand themselves. Blacks, historically, are not built that way.
However, it is my opinion, that socioeconomic and cultural surroundings play a larger role in black behavior than their genes. A much larger role.

 

[MacTheKnife]

History proves the arguments of my 2 antagonists above to be wrong.

Here is just one example



'Starting with the California Alien Land Law of 1913, fourteen states passed laws preventing Japanese-American peasant farmers from owning land and property. These laws existed until 1952, when the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional. Add to this the internment of 120,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II, and it’s fair to say that the Japanese were given no bootstraps in America. Nevertheless, by 1970 census data showed Japanese-Americans out-earning Anglo-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Polish-Americans.14 For Asian-Americans on the whole, an analysis of wealth data from 1989 to 2013 predicted that their “median wealth soon will surpass the white median level.” If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites.

Nor can historical racism explain wealth disparities between groups of the same race. A 2015 survey of wealth in Boston found that the median black household had only 8 dollars of wealth. Newsweek reported this fact under the heading “Racism in Boston.” But the 8 dollar figure only pertained to black Bostonians of American ancestry; black Bostonians of Caribbean ancestry had 12,000 dollars of wealth, despite having identical rates of college graduation, only slightly higher incomes, and being equally black in the same city.

{snip}

It’s not looking good for the progressive narrative about the racial wealth gap. Still, there is a kernel of truth to it. Researchers at Brandeis followed a nationally representative set of 1,700 families from 1984 to 2009 and measured their wealth gains over that period. They concluded that inherited wealth and length of homeownership accounted for 5 percent and 27 percent, respectively, of the racial disparity in wealth gains. But even if that combined 32 percent could be automatically ascribed to historical racism (which it cannot), that would still leave 68 percent of the gap to be explained by other factors. In short, many commentators have zoomed in on the fraction of the story that can be told without discomfort but have ignored the rest.

* * *

Conspicuous by its absence in the progressive account of the racial wealth gap is any active role for blacks themselves. Reading Baradaran, Rothstein, and Coates, one gets the impression that there is nothing blacks could do to improve their lot—outside of asking the government for radical policy solutions. But there are things that blacks can do. Indeed, there are certain elements of black American culture that, if changed, would allow blacks to amass wealth to a degree that no government policy would be likely to match.

No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.

To what extent do poor spending habits explain the persistence of the wealth gap? Economists at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania asked this question after analyzing 16 years of nationally representative data from the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Consistent with the Nielsen data, they found that blacks with comparable incomes to whites spent 17 percent less on education, and 32 percent more (an extra $2300 per year in 2005 dollars) on ‘visible goods’—defined as cars, jewelry, and clothes. What’s more, “after controlling for visible spending,” they concluded that the “wealth gap between Blacks and Whites, conditional on permanent income, declines by 50 percent.” To be clear, that 50 percent figure doesn’t pertain to the total wealth gap, but to the proportion of the gap that remains after income is taken into account—which was 40 percent. The upshot: the fact that blacks spent more on cars, jewelry, and clothes explained fully 20 percent of the total racial wealth gap.

To make matters worse, spending patterns are just one part of a larger set of financial skills on which blacks lag behind. Researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis followed over 40,000 families from 1989 to 2013, tracking their wealth accumulation and financial decisions. They developed a financial health scale, ranging from 0 to 5, that measured the degree to which families made “routine financial health choices that contribute to wealth accumulation”—e.g., saving any amount of money, paying credit card bills on time, having a low debt-to-income ratio, etc. At 3.12, Asian families scored the highest, followed by whites at 3.11, Hispanics at 2.71, and blacks at 2.63.

{snip}

{snip} Talking honestly about harmful behavioral patterns is the only way to reliably correct them. {snip}

* * *

{snip}

{snip} It is no longer primarily racism that holds blacks back, but a set of cultural elements—some acquired from white southerners,18 some a consequence of historical racism,19 others a consequence of the political upheavals of the 1960s,20 and some which are mysterious in origin—that are ill-suited for success in a modern information economy. Thus, unfair as it may seem, blacks can now do more for themselves than either whites or the government can do for them.

{snip}

The salient question should never have been who to blame for blacks’ predicament, but who is able to fix it. If the problem were simply a lack of cash, then the government would be the ideal candidate. But if we learned anything from the explosion of violent crime and single motherhood following welfare expansion in the late 1960s, it was that cash transfers cannot solve a problem that the absence of cash didn’t cause. Herein lies one of the many issues with reparations: it would not address the root causes of black underachievement. {snip}

Those who agree that top-down cultural reform is naïve might still object that bottom-up reform is equally quixotic. How, exactly, does one go about changing something as complex and distributed as culture? On this point, the history of formerly lagging ethnic groups is instructive. Whether measured by rates of alcoholism, high school graduation, or income, Irish-Americans used to lag far behind other American ethnic groups.23 As one point of reference, the incarceration rate for Irish-Americans was five times higher than for German-Americans in 1904. The response? While some Irish leaders blamed society, others, notably those in the Catholic Church, launched an inward-looking campaign to change behavioral patterns within the Irish community.24 Similar efforts were made by acculturated German-American Jews, whose stern programs of assimilation for their less-cultured Eastern European co-religionists included giving them “pointed lessons on the use of soap and water,” according to Sowell.25

That’s not to say that the details of these particular self-help campaigns are either replicable or wise. It’s only to say that historical examples of successful self-help campaigns exist. By contrast, I do not know of a single instance in which an underachieving ethnic minority rose to economic prominence by asking the government for cash transfers, preferential policies in education and employment, or apologies for past injustices.' {snip}

by coleman hughes

{snip}

Coleman Hughes is an undergraduate philosophy major at Columbia University. His writing has been featured on Heterodox Academy’s blog as well as in the Columbia Spectator. You can follow him on Twitter @coldxman

{snip}

In danger of participating in binary thinking, we can come to common ground instead of talking as if there are only two choices.
Does genealogy have a determinant effect on behavior? - of course it does. There are way-way too many anecdotal examples as well as concrete studies showing, for instance, adoptive children basically becoming their parents they never met. Even when they didn't know they were adopted growing up.
IMO, based soley on observation, black people are less economically ambitious. Going back in history, white races are a highly industrious people rarely satisfied with their surroundings..always seeking to improve/expand themselves. Blacks, historically, are not built that way.
However, it is my opinion, that socioeconomic and cultural surroundings play a larger role in black behavior than their genes. A much larger role.

Well you are entitled to your OPINION but you need to dig a little deeper....

As in shown before...you could place any other race in the socio-economic situation the blacks have been in ever since they were brought to America including slavery and their reaction would have been totally different.

We do not have to look too far to see it....as in White Folks were also enslaved in colonial america....very strict class system in our early days...and even up until the fifties there were poor white sharecroppers all over the South...very little if any difference between their economic status than of their black neighbors down the road who were also share croppers...both worked from can to can't just for the basic living necessities.

Also a very good case has been made that whites who worked up north in factories were actually worse off than black slaves on the plantation

White Slavery Denial - American Renaissance

 

[Indeependent]

They waz kangs!

 

[MacTheKnife]

Also regarding the numbers of black children with no father.....did liberal social polices cause that as claimed?

Perhaps to a certain degree...but the sexual mores began to undergo drastic changes at that time also....look at the hippie movement, and all the other white couples that may have not been hippies but chose to live together without getting married...and of course a very common thing now....so I would conclude many factors went into fractured black families.

 

[Moonglow]

For as long as official statistics have been kept, blacks in white societies have been overrepresented in all indices of social pathology: crime, illegitimacy, poverty, school failure, and long-term unemployment. The conventional liberal explanation for this is white “racism,” past and present, which has forced blacks into self-destructive choices. More clear-headed observers, however, have sought a partial explanation in the low average IQ of blacks.

And of course we know....intelligence is determined by genes.

Intelligence genes discovered by scientists

Dear MacTheKnife
the article posted mostly focused on "intelligence" and
correlating that with coordination between genes in the brain:
============
Dr Johnson added: “Traits such intelligence are governed by large groups of genes working together – like a football team made up of players in different positions.

“We used computer analysis to identify the genes in the human brain that work together to influence our cognitive ability to make new memories or sensible decisions when faced with lots of complex information.

“We found that some of these genes overlap with those that cause severe childhood onset epilepsy or intellectual disability.

“This study shows how we can use large genomic datasets to uncover new pathways for human brain function in both health and disease. Eventually, we hope that this sort of analysis will provide new insights into better treatments for neurodevelopmental diseases such as epilepsy, and ameliorate or treat the cognitive impairments associated with these devastating diseases.”
============

For studies on criminal behavior, I heard a speaker at Rice discuss the statistical connection between the
XYY genetic marking and increase risk or rate of "criminal behavior". Here is Wikipedia's summary on that approach:

XYY syndrome - Wikipedia

In August 1976, Science published a retrospective cohort study by Educational Testing Service psychologist Herman Witkin and colleagues that screened the tallest 16% of men (over 184 cm (6'0") in height) born in Copenhagen from 1944–1947 for XXY and XYY karyotypes, and found an increased rate of minor criminal convictions for property crimes among sixteen XXY and twelve XYY men may be related to the lower intelligence of those with criminal convictions, but found no evidence that XXY or XYY men were inclined to be aggressive or violent.[63]

In July 1999, Psychological Medicine published a case-control study by Royal Edinburgh Hospital psychiatrist Michael Götz and colleagues that found an increased rate of criminal convictions among seventeen XYY men identified in the Edinburgh newborn screening study compared to an above-average-IQ control group of sixty XY men, which multiple logistic regression analysis indicated was mediated mainly through lowered intelligence.[67]
================

What I thought was important:
When I asked this researcher - what about the Rates of REHABILITATING criminal behavior,
was that ALSO found to correlate with this XYY genetic marking? His answer was that there were no studies on adults.
But with juveniles, the success rate in rehabilitation correlated with "higher intelligence."

I believe that is only fair: If you are going to promote the idea that "criminality" is linked to genetic factors or markings,
then also look at the response rate in rehab and recovery.​

What if that also correlates as well?

I also found out after that the biggest factor in resolving issues with criminal attitudes, abuse and even addictions and disorders
is FORGIVENESS and therapy based on that approach to healing the mind, body and spirit. Not just of traumas and causal
factors in THIS lifetime, but possibly addressing unconscious patterns carried from PREVIOUS GENERATIONS.

GENETICS alone cannot explain how people's inborn traits and tendencies can be healed, cured and changed.
SPIRITUALLY there is a greater holistic process going on that needs to be taken into account.

For more resources on researching spiritual healing of the mind, including mental, criminal and even physical diseases and disorders,
I recommend these sites:
www.christianhealingmin.org
HEALING (edition 1999 or later) Dr. Francis MacNutt
www.healingisyours.com Dr. Phillip Goldfedder, Neurosurgeon

For personal testimonies of people who have observed or experienced the process
of spiritual healing and its effectiveness on schizophrenia or other dangerous criminal disorders:
Son of Hope: Testimony of David Berkowitz
The Official Website of David Berkowitz - Welcome
"Glimpses of the Devil" by Dr. Scott Peck, Psychiatrist (deceased)

When locked up and no other choices are left what else does one expect?

 

[Moonglow]

The single most significant factor in criminal behavior is intelligence. Ask any cop, criminals are the dumbest creatures on the planet.

What about the ones that were never caught?

 

[MacTheKnife]

The single most significant factor in criminal behavior is intelligence. Ask any cop, criminals are the dumbest creatures on the planet.

What about the ones that were never caught?

How do you know there were any? If they were not caught no proof they existed.

It is documented though that some very smart criminals have been caught.

Anyhow....I would guess a lot of criminals are never caught even dumb ones.

 

[MacTheKnife]

anyhow...............one thing i forgot to talk about....as in...........if a hungry person steals a loaf of bread....who would place a lot of blame on him?

Yet time and again we see a certain minority engage in horrific and violent crimes not even to mention all the rapes they committ ...more than any other group...in fact their violence ....excessive violence and sexual crimes cause many to think they are not quite fully human.....and in fact many people say they are animalistic brutes.

None of which can be attributed just to their poverty....a lot of good poor people who never hurt anyone in their lives and I am talking about amongst the minority as well....in fact most of the horrific crimes this certain minority is blamed for are comitted by a segment of this population...as in the young males ...who only compose about 2.5 percent of the total pop. but commit over 50 percent of all violent crime in America.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

History proves the arguments of my 2 antagonists above to be wrong.

Here is just one example



'Starting with the California Alien Land Law of 1913, fourteen states passed laws preventing Japanese-American peasant farmers from owning land and property. These laws existed until 1952, when the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional. Add to this the internment of 120,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II, and it’s fair to say that the Japanese were given no bootstraps in America. Nevertheless, by 1970 census data showed Japanese-Americans out-earning Anglo-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Polish-Americans.14 For Asian-Americans on the whole, an analysis of wealth data from 1989 to 2013 predicted that their “median wealth soon will surpass the white median level.” If wealth differences were largely explained by America’s history of favoring certain groups over others, then it would be hard to explain why Asian-Americans, who were never favored, are on track to become wealthier than whites.

Nor can historical racism explain wealth disparities between groups of the same race. A 2015 survey of wealth in Boston found that the median black household had only 8 dollars of wealth. Newsweek reported this fact under the heading “Racism in Boston.” But the 8 dollar figure only pertained to black Bostonians of American ancestry; black Bostonians of Caribbean ancestry had 12,000 dollars of wealth, despite having identical rates of college graduation, only slightly higher incomes, and being equally black in the same city.

{snip}

It’s not looking good for the progressive narrative about the racial wealth gap. Still, there is a kernel of truth to it. Researchers at Brandeis followed a nationally representative set of 1,700 families from 1984 to 2009 and measured their wealth gains over that period. They concluded that inherited wealth and length of homeownership accounted for 5 percent and 27 percent, respectively, of the racial disparity in wealth gains. But even if that combined 32 percent could be automatically ascribed to historical racism (which it cannot), that would still leave 68 percent of the gap to be explained by other factors. In short, many commentators have zoomed in on the fraction of the story that can be told without discomfort but have ignored the rest.

* * *

Conspicuous by its absence in the progressive account of the racial wealth gap is any active role for blacks themselves. Reading Baradaran, Rothstein, and Coates, one gets the impression that there is nothing blacks could do to improve their lot—outside of asking the government for radical policy solutions. But there are things that blacks can do. Indeed, there are certain elements of black American culture that, if changed, would allow blacks to amass wealth to a degree that no government policy would be likely to match.

No element of culture harms black wealth accrual more directly than spending patterns. Nielsen, one of the world’s leading market research firms, keeps extensive data on American consumer behavior, broken down demographically. A 2017 Nielsen report found that, compared to white women, black women were 14 percent more likely to own a luxury vehicle, 16 percent more likely to purchase costume jewelry, and 9 percent more likely to purchase fine jewelry. A similar Nielsen report from 2013 found that, while only 62 percent of all Americans owned a smartphone, 71 percent of blacks owned one. Moreover, all of these spending differences were unconditional on wealth and income.

To what extent do poor spending habits explain the persistence of the wealth gap? Economists at the University of Chicago and the University of Pennsylvania asked this question after analyzing 16 years of nationally representative data from the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Consistent with the Nielsen data, they found that blacks with comparable incomes to whites spent 17 percent less on education, and 32 percent more (an extra $2300 per year in 2005 dollars) on ‘visible goods’—defined as cars, jewelry, and clothes. What’s more, “after controlling for visible spending,” they concluded that the “wealth gap between Blacks and Whites, conditional on permanent income, declines by 50 percent.” To be clear, that 50 percent figure doesn’t pertain to the total wealth gap, but to the proportion of the gap that remains after income is taken into account—which was 40 percent. The upshot: the fact that blacks spent more on cars, jewelry, and clothes explained fully 20 percent of the total racial wealth gap.

To make matters worse, spending patterns are just one part of a larger set of financial skills on which blacks lag behind. Researchers at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis followed over 40,000 families from 1989 to 2013, tracking their wealth accumulation and financial decisions. They developed a financial health scale, ranging from 0 to 5, that measured the degree to which families made “routine financial health choices that contribute to wealth accumulation”—e.g., saving any amount of money, paying credit card bills on time, having a low debt-to-income ratio, etc. At 3.12, Asian families scored the highest, followed by whites at 3.11, Hispanics at 2.71, and blacks at 2.63.

{snip}

{snip} Talking honestly about harmful behavioral patterns is the only way to reliably correct them. {snip}

* * *

{snip}

{snip} It is no longer primarily racism that holds blacks back, but a set of cultural elements—some acquired from white southerners,18 some a consequence of historical racism,19 others a consequence of the political upheavals of the 1960s,20 and some which are mysterious in origin—that are ill-suited for success in a modern information economy. Thus, unfair as it may seem, blacks can now do more for themselves than either whites or the government can do for them.

{snip}

The salient question should never have been who to blame for blacks’ predicament, but who is able to fix it. If the problem were simply a lack of cash, then the government would be the ideal candidate. But if we learned anything from the explosion of violent crime and single motherhood following welfare expansion in the late 1960s, it was that cash transfers cannot solve a problem that the absence of cash didn’t cause. Herein lies one of the many issues with reparations: it would not address the root causes of black underachievement. {snip}

Those who agree that top-down cultural reform is naïve might still object that bottom-up reform is equally quixotic. How, exactly, does one go about changing something as complex and distributed as culture? On this point, the history of formerly lagging ethnic groups is instructive. Whether measured by rates of alcoholism, high school graduation, or income, Irish-Americans used to lag far behind other American ethnic groups.23 As one point of reference, the incarceration rate for Irish-Americans was five times higher than for German-Americans in 1904. The response? While some Irish leaders blamed society, others, notably those in the Catholic Church, launched an inward-looking campaign to change behavioral patterns within the Irish community.24 Similar efforts were made by acculturated German-American Jews, whose stern programs of assimilation for their less-cultured Eastern European co-religionists included giving them “pointed lessons on the use of soap and water,” according to Sowell.25

That’s not to say that the details of these particular self-help campaigns are either replicable or wise. It’s only to say that historical examples of successful self-help campaigns exist. By contrast, I do not know of a single instance in which an underachieving ethnic minority rose to economic prominence by asking the government for cash transfers, preferential policies in education and employment, or apologies for past injustices.' {snip}

by coleman hughes

{snip}

Coleman Hughes is an undergraduate philosophy major at Columbia University. His writing has been featured on Heterodox Academy’s blog as well as in the Columbia Spectator. You can follow him on Twitter @coldxman

{snip}

In danger of participating in binary thinking, we can come to common ground instead of talking as if there are only two choices.
Does genealogy have a determinant effect on behavior? - of course it does. There are way-way too many anecdotal examples as well as concrete studies showing, for instance, adoptive children basically becoming their parents they never met. Even when they didn't know they were adopted growing up.
IMO, based soley on observation, black people are less economically ambitious. Going back in history, white races are a highly industrious people rarely satisfied with their surroundings..always seeking to improve/expand themselves. Blacks, historically, are not built that way.
However, it is my opinion, that socioeconomic and cultural surroundings play a larger role in black behavior than their genes. A much larger role.

Well you are entitled to your OPINION but you need to dig a little deeper....

As in shown before...you could place any other race in the socio-economic situation the blacks have been in ever since they were brought to America including slavery and their reaction would have been totally different.

We do not have to look too far to see it....as in White Folks were also enslaved in colonial america....very strict class system in our early days...and even up until the fifties there were poor white sharecroppers all over the South...very little if any difference between their economic status than of their black neighbors down the road who were also share croppers...both worked from can to can't just for the basic living necessities.

Also a very good case has been made that whites who worked up north in factories were actually worse off than black slaves on the plantation

White Slavery Denial - American Renaissance

My stance is this, there are a number of factors that have made black Americans disproportionately behind economically than whites, as well as disproportionately high negative behaviors. It isn't just genetics. That is ignoring other factors to the degree of willful ignorance.
Liberal social policies of the late 1940's - 80's whereby 1,000,000's of blacks were relocated and packed in like sardines and given just enough welfare/food stamps to get by was a guaranteed pathway to disaster.
In Chicago, Democrat officials were found guilty of racial bias and breaking federal segregation laws in the Cabrini Green projects, and HUD took over. Who did no better.
Blacks, by the Democrat Party, in cities across the country systematically segregated blacks away from whites. It happened. And to this day, why in Gods name to blacks vote for the same party that did this to them, and continued to do so all the way to the early 1980's is mind boggling.