Zone1 Is Atheism Depressing?

[Thunderbird]

That they claim that math working out in the universe is "coincidental." They don't, as is shown by the hypothesis I linked. It's a strawman. Just like it's a strawman that a religious mathematician will say the reason is God. Most, simply won't make those kinds of judgements.


This is the problem with something on YouTube. Since it's NOT a scientific journal and almost all of them is just content creators giving their opinion.

People who don't really care or know how to distinguish between a well thought out scientific argument and some guy spouting his opinion into the void of the internet using selective quotes, and language and some slick video-editing will be fooled.

Just a tip. As a rule, someone who frames an argument generalizing entire groups of people should be approached with extreme skepticism.

I linked to well-regarded philosophers, not “some guy spouting”.

So you think that only science offers truth?

Can you prove that statement scientifically?

Positivism has run into many problems.

https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/07/fallacies-physicists-fall-for.html

 

[ding]

Atheism and agnosticism, or agnostic-atheism, can also be liberating and empowering.

Only if you believe socialism and communism are liberating and empowering.

 

[TruthNotBS]

So you acknowledge that atheism made you miserable and terrified, at least for a while.

Why would a universe without design or meaning, a chaotic and dreary mess of a universe, be “amazing” or “rich”?

Wow you must be so informed and educated now!

Loving your neighbor in this life is a central aspect of Christianity. Many Christians are active in charity work.

Some atheists are so disgusted and terrified by the world they avoid it at all costs. Not you of course. You are too wonderful.

So you acknowledge that atheism made you miserable and terrified, at least for a while.el 'Meritless'

Yes, it was frightening, not having my religious security blanket or crutch. But like I said, I got over it and now I'm in a much better place psychologically and emotionally.

Why would a universe without design or meaning, a chaotic and dreary mess of a universe, be “amazing” or “rich”?

I don't assume it's without design and as far as meaning, I create that for myself based upon what I experience and know. This so-called "chaotic and dreary mess", also contains the order of life, which swims against the current of that chaos. Life is amazing and beautiful, I love it. This universe is mysterious, full of wonder, adventure, and unfathomably expansive. What an extraordinary place to explore and try to actualize as much of our potential as possible. There's a lot to learn and experience, hence life is precious and worth living. This is how I feel.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Here’s Nietzsche, the most profound atheist:

King Midas hunted in the forest a long time for the wise Silenus.... When Silenus at last fell into his hands, the king asked what was the best and most desirable of all things for man. Fixed and immovable, the demigod said not a word, till at last, urged by the king, he gave a shrill laugh and broke out into these words: "Oh, wretched ephemeral race, children of chance and misery, why do you compel me to tell you what it would be most expedient for you not to hear? What is best of all is utterly beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. But the second best for you is—to die soon."

i guess you're the type of person who always sees the glass half empty. I choose to see it half full. I love life.

 

[Thunderbird]

Yes, it was frightening, not having my religious security blanket or crutch. But like I said, I got over it and now I'm in a much better place psychologically and emotionally.


I don't assume it's without design and as far as meaning, I create that for myself based upon what I experience and know. This so-called "chaotic and dreary mess", also contains the order of life, which swims against the current of that chaos. Life is amazing and beautiful, I love it. This universe is mysterious, full of wonder, adventure, and unfathomably expansive. What an extraordinary place to explore and try to actualize as much of our potential as possible. There's a lot to learn and experience, hence life is precious and worth living. This is how I feel.

I am sure you are quite special and in a marvelous place psychologically and emotionally, but how do you create a meaningful universe, a rich and amazing universe, in your own mind?

Evolution can’t proceed without many precise conditions being met.

The more you go on about how wonderful the universe is the more you persuade there is a God.

 

[Thunderbird]

i guess you're the type of person who always sees the glass half empty. I choose to see it half full. I love life.

I quoted Nietzsche. I didn’t say I shared his belief.

 

[Thunderbird]

Only if you believe socialism and communism are liberating and empowering.

I don’t know that the many victims of Mao felt liberated and empowered,

Mao's Great Famine

 

[Meriweather]

I am sure you are quite special and in a marvelous place psychologically and emotionally, but how do you create a meaningful universe, a rich and amazing universe, in your own mind?

Listen to what he has to say. Religion should not have a choke hold on us, or be a place that prevents exploration. It is why people like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross mean a lot to me. St. Teresa of Avila described our faith journey as beginning in a mansion of seven levels, each level having enumerable rooms, places of learning, places of expansion. St. John of the Cross, while difficult to fathom, had this philosophy that to get to where you are going/want to be, go by opposites. For example, to get to the way of light, go through the way of darkness. I once began a religious ed class for teens with, "The first thing we need to do is kill God...or at least God as we have imagined him to be, so God can show us anew who he is." Kind of a John of the Cross perspective of opposites...to reach God, go by the way of no God.

We can all imagine ourselves--and others--in that infinite mansion of infinite rooms, exploring all there is explore. No one has the time to explore all rooms, which is why all should be fascinated by descriptions of the rooms others are exploring, and what there is to learn in those rooms.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Atheism might be depressing depending on your personality, how one interprets the meaning and implications of it. But Atheism is definitely a vacuous position, an "unposition" so to speak. It isn't really a position at all.

It is the emperor's new clothes, a fake position, seemingly erudite but ultimately lacking in substance.

I've never seen a sound line of reasoning that leads to the conclusions therefore I am an atheist.

 

[Meriweather]

Atheism might be depressing depending on your personality, how one interprets the meaning and implications of it. But Atheism is definitely a vacuous position, an "unposition" so to speak. It isn't really a position at all.

It is the emperor's new clothes, a fake position, seemingly erudite but ultimately lacking in substance.

I've never seen a sound line of reasoning that leads to the conclusions therefore I am an atheist.

Approaching atheism from another angle, here: I may tend to go overboard with etymology, the original meaning of the everyday words that we use. Today, I am considering the word 'church'. An assembly of God is definitely one root, but one that strikes me harder is, "Belonging to the Lord." Those of us who belong to a church are announcing--proclaiming, even--that we belong to the Lord.

Belonging. Probably every person of faith has known that feeling of belonging, belonging to a church, but over and above that, belonging to God. We know where we belong. Consider the possibility that atheists may be a class who do not feel they belong in a church or to God. A fish out of water, perhaps--but a very real sense of, "I don't belong here." When it comes to life, I suspect every one of us have had that feeling of, "I don't belong here." For me, that feeling is strongest where there is a lot of noise--rock concerts, for example. It's a very real feeling. But consider having that feeling in a church, or about the Lord. Imagine the feeling of not belonging to the Lord.

My grandfather had that feeling, that feeling of not belonging. I don't know how if evolved within him, but he never stood in the way--if fact was encouraging--of his children following God, practicing a religion. My grandfather was about doing the right thing--especially doing what is right by the poor.

 

[BreezeWood]

Only if you believe socialism and communism are liberating and empowering.

no more than the desert religions of servitude and denial as depressing as any belief generated by humanity ...

not so the true religions of liberation theology, self determination - goals for the individual to accomplish for themselves with the hope to free ones spirit for life in the everlasting.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Approaching atheism from another angle, here: I may tend to go overboard with etymology, the original meaning of the everyday words that we use. Today, I am considering the word 'church'. An assembly of God is definitely one root, but one that strikes me harder is, "Belonging to the Lord." Those of us who belong to a church are announcing--proclaiming, even--that we belong to the Lord.

Belonging. Probably every person of faith has known that feeling of belonging, belonging to a church, but over and above that, belonging to God. We know where we belong. Consider the possibility that atheists may be a class who do not feel they belong in a church or to God. A fish out of water, perhaps--but a very real sense of, "I don't belong here." When it comes to life, I suspect every one of us have had that feeling of, "I don't belong here." For me, that feeling is strongest where there is a lot of noise--rock concerts, for example. It's a very real feeling. But consider having that feeling in a church, or about the Lord. Imagine the feeling of not belonging to the Lord.

My grandfather had that feeling, that feeling of not belonging. I don't know how if evolved within him, but he never stood in the way--if fact was encouraging--of his children following God, practicing a religion. My grandfather was about doing the right thing--especially doing what is right by the poor.

Well only the atheists can respond to that, "Church" if I'm not mistaken is the English for Greek "Ecclesia" which (again, if I recall) means "called out ones" so yes, that does refer to belonging to a group.

The problem I see with atheism is that it is ultimately not rational, I do not think one can rationally reach the conclusions that atheists reach (and this is true for the original meaning of the term and the new "pop" atheism (I do not hold a belief...)).

God however is a rational position, a rational belief many Christians have sound rational reasons for believing "in God" and I just don't see that with atheism, I mean what does an atheist actually believe? they've never been able to tell me.

 

[ding]

no more than the desert religions of servitude and denial as depressing as any belief generated by humanity ...

not so the true religions of liberation theology, self determination - goals for the individual to accomplish for themselves with the hope to free ones spirit for life in the everlasting.

Says who?

 

[Meriweather]

The problem I see with atheism is that it is ultimately not rational, I do not think one can rationally reach the conclusions that atheists reach (and this is true for the original meaning of the term and the new "pop" atheism (I do not hold a belief...)).

I find atheists often have two points in common. One, they toss aside that God is spirit when they call for physical evidence for God. Second, they have unrealistic expectations of God, stemming from the idea God can do anything, taking no note that God may have something else in mind. The mindset is that anyone should be able to be in command of God, and look upon God as a kind of personal Genie. It is better if God is approached from the perspective we are the Genie and are there for God to command, not vice-versa.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I find atheists often have two points in common. One, they toss aside that God is spirit when they call for physical evidence for God.

Yes, I agree, there is an inherent belief in naturalism, materialism, these are assumed beliefs.

Second, they have unrealistic expectations of God, stemming from the idea God can do anything, taking no note that God may have something else in mind. The mindset is that anyone should be able to be in command of God, and look upon God as a kind of personal Genie. It is better if God is approached from the perspective we are the Genie and are there for God to command, not vice-versa.

I agree, many often carry over preconceptions and in my experience a lot of atheists actually have a disdain for religion rather than the concept of a deity, a creator. These atheists will attack the theist not on philosophical points but on ideological points, conflating religion and theism.

Many atheists that I've debated online over the years often make sarcastic remarks about ideology, religion, doctrine and ceremony.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Correct. The part that is missing is that people are not just made up of heads (physical bodies). Christians believe that humans are made up of both body and spirit/soul. Ronan Keating wrote the song When You Say Nothing at All. Its opening verse:

… It's amazing how you can speak right to my heart
… Without saying a word, you can light up the dark
… Try as I may, I can never explain
What I hear when you don't say a thing

Just as love can work as Keating describes in the above verse, God communicates with us heart-to-heart, spirit to spirit.

You didn't really answer the point made. Just walked around it.

How did God build the universe if he's only spiritual?

 

[BreezeWood]

God however is a rational position, a rational belief many Christians have sound rational reasons for believing "in God" and I just don't see that with atheism,

really, what are they their rational reasons for believing in - god ... any different than mythology - surly not a desert, self serving religion their monotheism is more rational than atheism.

 

[BreezeWood]

we are the Genie and are there for God to command ....

their phony commandments they worship distort the very reason life begins as a gift.

 

[Meriweather]

You didn't really answer the point made. Just walked around it.

How did God build the universe if he's only spiritual?

You want my guess?! For what it is worth, I am guessing one atom particle at a time.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You want my guess?! For what it is worth, I am guessing one atom particle at a time.

That doesn't answer the question.

A spirit does not move things physically, does not create things physically.

You're saying there are two separate worlds that come together. The physical and the spiritual. That you can't measure God in the physical because he's not.

Atoms are PHYSICAL, they're there, they exist. How does God create physical things if he's only spiritual.

If he can do physical, then we can measure him using physical measurements.