Irreducible complexity

[ABikerSailor]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Irrelevant. I have proven that something can be irreducibly complex.

Apples and light bulbs ... you haven't proven anything.

Nevertheless a car requires a minimum number of parts in order to function. You can't refute that. Why would it be any different for life?

Life does require a minimum number of parts to function. It must have the ability to metabolize and the ability to pass on encoded material to its progeny.

Literally everything else an organism might possess is a factory option.

Once life begins, evolution is inevitable.

Even if this is true, you must have life before it can evolve. However, centuries of observation have proven that life comes only from life. It cannot evolve from lifeless chemicals.

You've been misinformed. The famous Miller-Urey experiment (which as been repeated countless times) has proven without a doubt that organic molecules, including dozens of different amino acids, can spontaneously assemble in conditions similar to those of the early earth.

Some of these crude organic molecules are even capable of making copies of themselves.

As it turns out, the jump from inorganic to organic chemistry is easier than anyone could have imagined.

The reason the first experiments failed was that they never introduced electricity to the solutions. When electricity was introduced to the solutions, various amino acids formed.

And yes people, electricity is a naturally occurring thing. Ever heard of lightning? (That was for everyone else, not you Fncceo.)

 

[Magnificat]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

You would still require a way to start the car. Whether it's spark plugs or something else.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

You would still require a way to start the car. Whether it's spark plugs or something else.

Diesel engines don't use spark plugs, they use compression of the fuel and air to achieve ignition.

 

[Magnificat]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

You would still require a way to start the car. Whether it's spark plugs or something else.

Diesel engines don't use spark plugs, they use compression of the fuel and air to achieve ignition.

You just confirmed what I said. It requires a source of ignition.

 

[WinterBorn]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

You would still require a way to start the car. Whether it's spark plugs or something else.

Like the previously mentioned handcrank?

 

[WinterBorn]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

Simple..................replace the gas engine with a diesel and you can get rid of the spark plugs.

You would still require a way to start the car. Whether it's spark plugs or something else.

Diesel engines don't use spark plugs, they use compression of the fuel and air to achieve ignition.

You just confirmed what I said. It requires a source of ignition.

Electric cars do not.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

 

[WinterBorn]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

Of course not. But then, automobiles are not living and do not compete for food/energy, space and reproduction.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Idiot. You just shot yourself in the foot. Cars do not evolve. They are designed and built by intelligent people. Lolol

I didn't say the car evolved; I said the technology evolves. One endpoint of current technology is the car.

.

Does the technology evolve by Intelligent Design or by car parts randomly throwing themselves against each other?

I'd be willing to say that the technology evolves by Intelligent Design of a Creator. Namely, tech evolves because of humans and their desire to develop newer and better things.

But then again, it says in the Bible that God wanted to create mankind in His own image. That would mean that we also have the ability to create and "evolve" things.

 

[Wuwei]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

 

[Magnificat]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

Apples and oranges. Gas powered cars and electric cars are two different things. Try again.

 

[Wuwei]

I'd be willing to say that the technology evolves by Intelligent Design of a Creator. Namely, tech evolves because of humans and their desire to develop newer and better things.

But then again, it says in the Bible that God wanted to create mankind in His own image. That would mean that we also have the ability to create and "evolve" things.

I would say that understanding the nature of the universe comes first out of intense curiosity of scientists. Think of the Large Hadron Collider which has no other practical purpose right now. Technology comes after that.

We understood atoms first, then developed transistors, lasers, GPS systems second. In my mind the study of science is a higher form of "liturgy" than can be provided by any church.

.

 

[rightwinger]

Apples and light bulbs ... you haven't proven anything.

Nevertheless a car requires a minimum number of parts in order to function. You can't refute that. Why would it be any different for life?

Life does require a minimum number of parts to function. It must have the ability to metabolize and the ability to pass on encoded material to its progeny.

Literally everything else an organism might possess is a factory option.

Once life begins, evolution is inevitable.

Even if this is true, you must have life before it can evolve. However, centuries of observation have proven that life comes only from life. It cannot evolve from lifeless chemicals.

You've been misinformed. The famous Miller-Urey experiment (which as been repeated countless times) has proven without a doubt that organic molecules, including dozens of different amino acids, can spontaneously assemble in conditions similar to those of the early earth.

Some of these crude organic molecules are even capable of making copies of themselves.

As it turns out, the jump from inorganic to organic chemistry is easier than anyone could have imagined.

The reason the first experiments failed was that they never introduced electricity to the solutions. When electricity was introduced to the solutions, various amino acids formed.

And yes people, electricity is a naturally occurring thing. Ever heard of lightning? (That was for everyone else, not you Fncceo.)

Worked with Frankenstein

 

[rightwinger]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

Apples and oranges. Gas powered cars and electric cars are two different things. Try again.

Kind of blows away your OP

 

[forkup]

Atheists will try to tell us that this is not a valid argument. Let's apply this argument to something modern and concrete. The automobile. In its simplest form, it is irreducibly complex.

Battery
So you want to turn your car on? Obviously, this is the big boy you're going to need to get everything going.

Axle
Another important part of any car. How are you going to keep the fun rolling without these?

Brakes
Having trusty brakes is essential to driving a safe car. When you start to hear those things squeak at red lights, it might be time to head into the shop and get some new ones.

Pistons
These are best when they're pumping smoothly and quickly. Built to handle all those gasoline explosions, these are where your car gets its horses.

Fuel Injector
The successor to the carburetor, this little thing gets the gas from the fuel tank into the engine.

Radiator
The radiator is part of the system that keeps your car's engine from overheating. Here, the engine coolant has time to give off heat into the air before it goes back into the engine to pick up...more heat.

Transmission
Here's where the power turns into movement. The transmission takes the energy generated in the engine and transmits it to the connected wheels.

Spark Plug
The spark plug is what you use to get the car started. It uses an electric spark to ignite fuel in the engine's ignition chamber.

Now, can anyone tell me which part you can remove and still have a car that you would trust your life in? Take your time. I'll wait.

The History of Brakes
Here you see mechanical evolution at work in your example of a car. It's why irreducibly complexity is a strawman. Not a single scientist claims that life came fully formed. It was a series of very small steps.... just like your brakes.

 

[WinterBorn]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

Apples and oranges. Gas powered cars and electric cars are two different things. Try again.

No, they are both automobiles and yuor analogy should work on both, if it works. It doesn't. Your supposition fails.

In the OP you said the battery could not be replaced. The hand crank absolutely replaces the battery. Your supposition fails.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

Apples and oranges. Gas powered cars and electric cars are two different things. Try again.

Doesn't matter, others have shown on here where VW had been using air cooled, gas powered engines in their cars that didn't require a radiator. There are always ways to make something complex a bit more simple. You've yet to demonstrate "irreducible complexity".

 

[WinterBorn]

You know, I finally figured out the problem I had with this thread, and it's the title "irreducible complexity", meaning that the OP thinks that a car is so complex, that it cannot be reduced anymore, which is what "irreducible" means.

Only problem is, the thing the OP posited in their first post is wrong. Many of the things that they said was "irreducible" could be simplified quite a bit simply by switching to an electric car.

Here.................................for those that don't want to look up those words, I give you the definitions.........................

irreducible
[ ir-i-doo-suh-buh l, -dyoo- ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR irreducible ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
1. not reducible; incapable of being reduced or of being diminished or simplified further: the irreducible minimum.
2. incapable of being brought into a different condition or form.
3. Mathematics.

1. of or relating to a polynomial that cannot be factored.
2. of or relating to a group that cannot be written as the direct product of two of its subgroups.

complexity
[ kuh m-plek-si-tee ]
|
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR complexity ON THESAURUS.COM
noun, plural com·plex·i·ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being complex; intricacy: the complexity of urban life.
2. something complex: the complexities of foreign policy.



I know...................it sucks when people bring logic and reason into a thread.

Apples and oranges. Gas powered cars and electric cars are two different things. Try again.

LMAO!!! You compare living cells to an automobile, and then you have the audacity to claim that a combustion engine car and an electric car is comparing apples and oranges?

You started this thread comparing apples and coffee tables.