Invention of the 'Palestinian' People

[montelatici]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution. LOL


"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

 

[Hollie]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution. LOL


"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

I'm afraid you're running fast and loose with your edited version of facts. We know from the official Ottoman land records that substantial tracts of land in what you define as the mythical "country of Pal'istan" were owned by foreigners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

Those are the facts from the Ottoman who controlled the land.

 

[Phoenall]

Clearly, the British neglected to provide tutelage to 90% of the inhabitants and provided it to recent arrivals from Europe and non-inhabitants still in Europe.

Actually, the Arab inhabitants rejected the offered tutelage because they were unable to accept the parameters of the tutelage. They still can't accept those parameters, which is why they still don't have a nation.

Indeed, they did not accept the colonization of their country. Of course no other people in the world would accept colonization either so I don't understand why the Palestinians are singled out.

The Arabs-Moslems did not have a country. There was never a "country of Pal'istan".

Do you have any clue that your argument for a mythical "country of Pal'istan" is utter nonsense?

The Palestinians certainly had a country, it was called Palestine, though it wasn't an independent nation. Just as the the Kurds have a country called Kurdistan, though also not an independent nation.

Whether it was a sovereign state or not makes little difference. The European Zionists never had a state either.

The arab muslims did have a state, it was the one they ran away from to fight the Jews

 

[Phoenall]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution. LOL


"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

But do not own as the next article from this report states

 

[Phoenall]

No, I am just stating what UN A/364 stated about the Arab population of Palestine. The absentee owner bullshit is Zionist propaganda. Just read Chapter II para. 364 of the UN partition plan.

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire
land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per
cent of the land."

Again, provide a link or you're lying. Well, of course, we know you cherry pick whatever you like from the links you provide to enforce your version of the truth. So nevermind the link, we're tired of your bullshit anyways.

You just can't accept the facts. There is no "version" of the truth. There is the truth and Zionist lies. You propagate the Zionist lies. In this case the truth was stated in the partition plan report of the UN.


UNITED
NATIONS
A

• 
  General Assembly

A/364
3 September 1947

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire
land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per
cent of the land."


A/364 of 3 September 1947

This is not the Partition plan as you claim as that was resolution 181,

SO WHY DO YOU LIE

And the rest of this article states " The provisions of the land transfer regulations of 1940, which gave effect to the 1939 White Paper policy, have severely restricted the Jewish efforts to acquire new land. "

The preceding article states

163. The Arabs of Palestine consider themselves as having a "natural" right to that country, although they have not been in possession of it as a sovereign nation.

 

[Phoenall]

Why don't you show Table 1, Monte? Ignorant or deliberately deceitful?

Because it destroys his argument when it shows that the Jews actually owned more land than the arab muslims. It shows the absentee landlords as the true owners of land in palestine, and not the arab muslims

 

[Phoenall]

Why don't you show Table 1, Monte? Ignorant or deliberately deceitful?

What would Table 1. do for you? Knock yourself out. You are grasping at straws now. I always present the truth, that's what bothers you and your more rabid propagandists.

View attachment 102068

Post the link like a good Catholic altar boy should, and then we will all see your duplicity. And prove that you dont post the truth, just your version of it

 

[Phoenall]

Here's Table 1

Now. Why don't you show me where in the report land owned by resident Arabs is differentiated from land owned by non-resident Arabs. Because I can't seem to find it.

1. In UN A/364 the UN clearly stated that the Arab population had 85% of the land.

And, while you are at it, please explain why State-owned miri land is and should be considered "Arab-owned" land.

1. In UN A/364 the UN clearly stated that the Arab population still owned 85% of the land at the time of partition.

2. There was no "miri-land" there was public land that represented 2.52% of the cultivatable land. The British implemented the Torrens system for registering land. The Survey explains this in Vol. 1. Chapter, page 231, para. 46.

"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second pre- requisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine Vol. 1.

1) LIAR as it does not say that at all, it says "possession" as in your stolen car is in the possession of the people who stole it. They dont own it but you do.

2) LIAR as the British carried on with the Ottoman method rather than upset the apple cart. They took over the running of the land and the land registration


pasting from a hate site without giving a link is against the rules, are you scared in case your duplicity is seen by all. Your link

British Mandate: A Survey of Palestine: Volume I - Page 241 - Palestine Remembered

 

[Phoenall]

It's so silly that you dump the above cut and paste article across multiple threads.

What you're oblivious to is the fact that your invented Pal'istanians didn't own the land. The Ottoman's relinquished all rights and title to the geographic area called Pal'istan.

Further, as we know from the land records kept by the Ottoman's, foreign absentee landowners in Egypt, Sharia and Lebanon were major land owners.

As this has been explained to you on multiple occasions, how is it you remain so befuddled?

You mean it disturbs you that I am presenting the facts, as stated by the UN and the Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry, that do not match your lies. The land was owned by the population of Palestine, not "absentee landowners". That is a Zionist myth. Stop lying and making things up.

Let's repeat:

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. "

A/364 of 3 September 1947

or

I'm afraid you suffer from the condition knows as cognitive dissonance. You can repeat cutting and pasting the same article, but as we know from the Ottoman's who controlled the land, your cutting and pasting is bogus.



Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

Under Ottoman rule, a substantial portion of the land in Palestine was registered as state land. Some of this land was later sold or transferred to pre-state Jewish institutions. Other portions belonged to the Muslim waqf (religious trust), and these, according to Islamic law, cannot be sold. However, there was no orderly registration process; ownership was determined primarily using records such as tax payments.

Yes, and about 6% of the land was sold to the Jews. So what? It doesn't change the facts as portrayed below.

I understand you're in a desperate cut and paste frenzy but you need to come to terms with your failings. I direct your attention to the official Ottoman land records which refute your article.

From my earlier link:

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

And it consisted of less than 6% of the land, as depicted in the table.

Forget the table as that has been shown to be false, lets look at reality

 

[Phoenall]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution. LOL


"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land."

A change of words because yiu were found out lying. It was not a pre-partion resolution either it was a post partition resolution by UNSCOP

 

[frigidweirdo]

I saw a six year old thread revived about the Jews being 'invented' and found an interesting link within it that I thought would be good material for an opposing thread.

The term “Palestinian,” ironically, was used during the British Mandate period (1922-1948) to identify the Jews of British Mandatory Palestine. The Arabs of the area were known as “Arabs,” and their own designation of the region was balad esh-Sham (the province of Damascus). While some Arab nationalist writers, and coffee-shop intellectuals in Cairo or Beirut, developed the concept of Arab nationalism in large part as a response to Zionism, the terms “Palestine” and “Palestinian” were used in their traditional sense as geographic designations, not as national identities.

So, here we see that early in the twentieth century, the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to the Jews.

In early 1947, in fact, when the UN was exploring the possibility of the partition of British Mandatory Palestine into two states, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs, various Arab political and academic spokespersons spoke out vociferously against such a division because, they argued, the region was really a part of southern Syria, no such people or nation as “Palestinians” had ever existed, and it would be an injustice to Syria to create a state ex nihilo at the expense of Syrian sovereign territory.

One major thing I want to point out about the above is the fact that Britain had already split their "Mandate for Palestine" in two by creating a separate Arab state by creating Trans-Jordan.

Now to the meat:

During the 19 years from Israel’s victory in 1948 to Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, all that remained of the UN’s partitioned territory to the “Arabs” of British Mandatory Palestine were the West Bank, under illegal Jordanian sovereignty, and the Gaza Strip, under Egyptian rule. Never during these 19 years did any Arab leader anywhere in the world argue for the right of national self-determination for the Arabs of these territories. A “Palestinian” nation and “Palestinian” people had not yet been invented.

Article 24 of the PLO’s original founding document, the PLO Covenant, states: “This Organization (the PLO) does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” For Arafat before the Six-Day War, Palestine was Israel. It was not the West Bank or the Gaza Strip -- because the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belonged to other Arab states, and the inhabitants of these areas were not numbered among the Palestinians whose “homeland” Arafat sought to “liberate.” The only "homeland" for the PLO in 1964 was the State of Israel. However, in response to the Six Day War, the PLO revised its Covenant on July 17, 1968, to remove the operative language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

And this is the best part:

This ploy was revealed, perhaps inadvertently, to the West in a public interview with Zahir Muhse’in, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, in a March 31, 1977, interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaperTrouw:

• "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Link: Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

Put this into context. An American (as a citizen of the USA) didn't exist until the day the Founding Fathers declared independence. Before that the people were British. They invented it.

So what? Does that mean said people can be kicked out of their land, killed etc?

 

[Challenger]

The Anglo-American committee that undertook the Survey of Palestine on behalf of the UN, determined the ownership. What do you have?

You really should read your primary source materials.

Village Statistics 1945 (the source for your claims) shows that 48% of the land was "Arab-owned" BUT both miri land and land owned and held by absentee Arab land-owners was counted as being as "Arab-owned" land.

It was not Jewish land. That is the point.

It was still all Palestinian land. Private ownership did not remove any land from the country.

Private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty. There is no such thing as "Palestinian land". There is land which was State-owned and land that was privately owned by people of various ethnicities. The fact that the owner of a particular plot of land is Arab does not make his land sovereign Palestine land.

Quite right, Zionists buying land in Palestine did not make it Jewish land either but if you read contemporary Zionist accounts about "redeeming the land one dunam at a time", they seem to disagree with your argument.

 

[Phoenall]

I saw a six year old thread revived about the Jews being 'invented' and found an interesting link within it that I thought would be good material for an opposing thread.

The term “Palestinian,” ironically, was used during the British Mandate period (1922-1948) to identify the Jews of British Mandatory Palestine. The Arabs of the area were known as “Arabs,” and their own designation of the region was balad esh-Sham (the province of Damascus). While some Arab nationalist writers, and coffee-shop intellectuals in Cairo or Beirut, developed the concept of Arab nationalism in large part as a response to Zionism, the terms “Palestine” and “Palestinian” were used in their traditional sense as geographic designations, not as national identities.

So, here we see that early in the twentieth century, the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to the Jews.

In early 1947, in fact, when the UN was exploring the possibility of the partition of British Mandatory Palestine into two states, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs, various Arab political and academic spokespersons spoke out vociferously against such a division because, they argued, the region was really a part of southern Syria, no such people or nation as “Palestinians” had ever existed, and it would be an injustice to Syria to create a state ex nihilo at the expense of Syrian sovereign territory.

One major thing I want to point out about the above is the fact that Britain had already split their "Mandate for Palestine" in two by creating a separate Arab state by creating Trans-Jordan.

Now to the meat:

During the 19 years from Israel’s victory in 1948 to Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, all that remained of the UN’s partitioned territory to the “Arabs” of British Mandatory Palestine were the West Bank, under illegal Jordanian sovereignty, and the Gaza Strip, under Egyptian rule. Never during these 19 years did any Arab leader anywhere in the world argue for the right of national self-determination for the Arabs of these territories. A “Palestinian” nation and “Palestinian” people had not yet been invented.

Article 24 of the PLO’s original founding document, the PLO Covenant, states: “This Organization (the PLO) does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” For Arafat before the Six-Day War, Palestine was Israel. It was not the West Bank or the Gaza Strip -- because the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belonged to other Arab states, and the inhabitants of these areas were not numbered among the Palestinians whose “homeland” Arafat sought to “liberate.” The only "homeland" for the PLO in 1964 was the State of Israel. However, in response to the Six Day War, the PLO revised its Covenant on July 17, 1968, to remove the operative language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

And this is the best part:

This ploy was revealed, perhaps inadvertently, to the West in a public interview with Zahir Muhse’in, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, in a March 31, 1977, interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaperTrouw:

• "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Link: Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

Put this into context. An American (as a citizen of the USA) didn't exist until the day the Founding Fathers declared independence. Before that the people were British. They invented it.

So what? Does that mean said people can be kicked out of their land, killed etc?

If the First Nations wish to do so then you could

 

[Hollie]

The Anglo-American committee that undertook the Survey of Palestine on behalf of the UN, determined the ownership. What do you have?

You really should read your primary source materials.

Village Statistics 1945 (the source for your claims) shows that 48% of the land was "Arab-owned" BUT both miri land and land owned and held by absentee Arab land-owners was counted as being as "Arab-owned" land.

It was not Jewish land. That is the point.

It was still all Palestinian land. Private ownership did not remove any land from the country.

Private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty. There is no such thing as "Palestinian land". There is land which was State-owned and land that was privately owned by people of various ethnicities. The fact that the owner of a particular plot of land is Arab does not make his land sovereign Palestine land.

Quite right, Zionists buying land in Palestine did not make it Jewish land either but if you read contemporary Zionist accounts about "redeeming the land one dunam at a time", they seem to disagree with your argument.

Quite right. You shuffle off rather than address your befuddlement over "Pal'istanian land". We know from the Ottoman land records that portions of the geographic land area called Pal'istan were designated as an Islamist waqf. To ease your befuddlement, an islamo-waqf is land that is, according to Islamist ideology, land owned in perpetuity by The Islamist Entity™ as an endowment by their gawd, at least according to Islam's god jr., Mo. (swish).

 

[montelatici]

The land ownership data contained in UN Resolution A/364 and within the Survey of Palestine is based on the Torrens system which was implemented in 1927. There had been no "waqf" land since the British conquest of Palestine in 1917 when the land registries were re-established by the British. In 1927 the land registry system was finalized and the land ownership calculations in A/363 and the Survey of Palestine were based on the "Torrens" system.


"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second prerequisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine, para. 46, page 241.

 

[Hollie]

The land ownership data contained in UN Resolution A/364 and within the Survey of Palestine is based on the Torrens system which was implemented in 1927. There had been no "waqf" land since the British conquest of Palestine in 1917 when the land registries were re-established by the British. In 1927 the land registry system was finalized and the land ownership calculations in A/363 and the Survey of Palestine were based on the "Torrens" system.


"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second prerequisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine, para. 46, page 241.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

 

[montelatici]

The land ownership data contained in UN Resolution A/364 and within the Survey of Palestine is based on the Torrens system which was implemented in 1927. There had been no "waqf" land since the British conquest of Palestine in 1917 when the land registries were re-established by the British. In 1927 the land registry system was finalized and the land ownership calculations in A/363 and the Survey of Palestine were based on the "Torrens" system.


"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second prerequisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine, para. 46, page 241.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

Agreed, the sales of large tracts to the Jews totaled about 6% of the land, as depicted below.

 

[Hollie]

The land ownership data contained in UN Resolution A/364 and within the Survey of Palestine is based on the Torrens system which was implemented in 1927. There had been no "waqf" land since the British conquest of Palestine in 1917 when the land registries were re-established by the British. In 1927 the land registry system was finalized and the land ownership calculations in A/363 and the Survey of Palestine were based on the "Torrens" system.


"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second prerequisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine, para. 46, page 241.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

Agreed, the sales of large tracts to the Jews totaled about 6% of the land, as depicted below.

View attachment 102150

It's fortunate that we have the official Ottoman land records to understand the facts as opposed to your article.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The provisions of the land transfer regulations of 1940, which gave effect to the 1939 White Paper policy, have severely restricted the Jewish efforts to acquire new land. "

Why did the Jews have to acquire land when the LoN gave them all of the land already?

 

[P F Tinmore]

163. The Arabs of Palestine consider themselves as having a "natural" right to that country, although they have not been in possession of it as a sovereign nation.

Israeli talking point.

A sovereign nation is not a prerequisite to the right to sovereignty.