Interesting theory that of the Venetians - Vandals and Longobards of Protoslav lineage

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historycisalpin

historycisalpin

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I made changes to this map, since it seemed right to do it, for correctness:

Omembe_Venetov.jpg


This does not mean that today's Lombards are all the result of a Slavic ethnic heritage, even if they are still part of it, but, more than anything else, the Winnili / Winnilowie were.
 

zaangalewa

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What a nonsense.
I am not the one who claims that the ancient Celts - Slavs and Germans belonged to a single Germanic stock,
The ancestors of the Germanics were Celts - and the ancestors of the Germans are Germanics, Celts and Romans. I guess the situation in Italy is more complex. Sure were Celts and Greeks (and Romans) ancestors of the modern Italian people - but also others like the Veneti.

just as I was not the one to affirm a Celtic origin of the ancient Venetians.
It was Cesar, who said so - he was wrong. And it is also wrong that the Veneti belonged to the Illyrians, how Herodot said. The most near friendly culture seemed to be in Latium. Looks like both cultures melted in the first century before Christ.

For posterity the arduous judgment on who between us is rubbing nonsense.
?
 
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I made changes to this map, since it seemed right to do it, for correctness:

View attachment 347322

This does not mean that today's Lombards are all the result of a Slavic ethnic heritage, even if they are still part of it, but, more than anything else, the Winnili / Winnilowie were.
This map is nonsense.
 

zaangalewa

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In Rome lived in the best time about 1 million people from all over the Roman Empire - and in the worst times lived there only about 10,000 people, who used Rome as a stone quarry.
It was a society divided into castes and social classes, the empire used slaves as a workforce from other regions, but this does not go beyond the fact that the Roman legionaries had different phenotypes both as regards the Celts and as regards the Germans and the Slavs.

The Langobards spoke a Germanic language, so they were Germanics. Other Germanic tribes spoke with them without interpreter.
Even a Neapolitan speaks my own national language, although different phenotypic characteristics flow between me and him, but this also happens among many Lombards, since the Lombards form a group of peoples different from each other in appearance, anthropological characteristics, stature and traits different phenotypics.
Language is not a fundamental factor in determining whether one or more peoples belong to the same root,
Not so in Germany. Who speaks a German language is a German.

so much so that once they all spoke Latin (or almost), now the universal language is English, but this does not mean that we are all ethnically English.

Celts and Germanics are the same phenotypes. The ancestors of the Germanics were Celts.
This too is an all too exaggerated statement, if you think that the Celts were not all ethnically equal and when we talk about them we must think of a set of different tribes among them: part of them were of Germanic lineage, another part it was of Proto-Slavic lineage, others were of Liguere lineage, as the ancient Ligui (autochthonous Cisalpine), in pre-Roman times controlled a large part of the Cisalpine and the French coast, even went to what is now called Germany.

As far as I am able to see the Slaws came out of this region:



That's where the language of the Slaws came from during the 5th and 10th century. The center is somewhere near Kiev.
In Ukraine, I know, my grandmother's caregiver is Ukraine. The Kievan Rus did not originate in Scandinavia, according to the imaginative and allegory Panscandean allegory, but were Proto-Slavs.

And tell me please what's the "phenotype" of a Slaw for you.
These are all Slavs: the ancient Romans (with phenotypes that I showed you above), used to fight against these people:

View attachment 346493

View attachment 346495

View attachment 346496

This instead is Bergamo like me, only that its phenotypes and its characteristics are completely different from mine, being its more Slavic, despite the fact that we both speak the same language.

View attachment 346498
And you think between this people and Germans or Germanics and/or Celts exists a difference in the phenotype?

Apart from the fact that the territory of the saxony was slavicized several times throughout history,
Saxony? That's in history the North of Germany. Hamburg, Bremen, Niedersachsen and so on. Which tribes live in the federal state of Germany, which is called Saxony since a younger history, I don't know in the moment. For what or why is this important?

not to mention that East Germany was Russian,
The East of Germany never was "Russian" - it was a socialistic Soviet state under the dictatorship of communistic leaders. Wide German areas which are now Poland and the Russian area around Königsberg are now an area ful of Slaws, because the Germans who had lived there were murdred and/or displaced after world war 2. Silesia and Bohemia are dead too. Even in Transsylvania don't live Germans any longer, although they lived there for hundreds of years. The most Germans, who had lived in Russian areas, also had left this country in the size of a continent.

even if for a short period, but in that period of time, especially close to the entrance in germany of the red army, many germanic women were defiled by the russian slavic solati and had children.
That's true: Millions of German women were brutally raped - some murdered - from the allies in and after world war 2. Lots of this women did do suicide. But this makes not any German to a Slaw.

To the allegorical and imaginative theory of Germanising the whole of Europe,
?

I am inclined towards what you see populations of Slavic and proto-Slavic descent who, dropping from Eastern Europe, colonized much of Europe in ancient times.
Again: The Slaws came from an area direction Kiev. This started as far as I know in the 5th century. I heard in the area of Prague lived for a minimum of 500 years Germanics, before the first Slaws arrived there. And Slaws have with Italy to do nothing at all as far as I know.

However my brother speaks Swedish despite being an Italian (language classified as Germanic), since he lives and works in Stockholm, but this does not mean that he must be identified as a German of origin.
Why should anyone identify an Italian in Sweden as a "German of origin"?
Notwithstanding the fact that I don't want to be here to answer all your counter-responses, I reiterate the concept that Germanocentrism, on the objective and rational level, is totally devoid of any truthfulness. Therefore, I remain firm on the theories that make the Longobards a people of Proto-Slavic lineage,
The Langobards were Germanics.

as well as the Goths and vandals,
Both Germanics.

not to mention the set of tribes belonging to the Slavic family of the Venetians.
The Veneti had an own culture and were practically always Italians - their language had a common root with Latin.

Saxony and the neighboring territories were invaded by Slavic populations on several occasions throughout history, were subsequently Germanized from a linguistic point of view, but Slavs still remain.
That's totally stupid now. In the East of Germany live Slaws - the Sorbs for example. No one has the need to hide a Slawic identity in Germany.

Ever heard of Polabian Slavs?
No.

There have been some claims (during the Soviet-era especially) that East Germany was originally inhabited by Slavic people and that modern Eastern Germans in the Republic of Germany are actually more Slavic than Germanic, but just how Slavic is East Germany anyways?
The Slaws conquered big parts of Europe where once Germanics lived - that's all.

Believe it or not, there may actually be more truth to this claim than one may think and there is a plethora of historic, genetic and linguistic evidence for the influence of old Slavic tribes on various groups of German-speaking people, and the modern Slavic peoples who still live within the borders of Germany and other Germanic countries to this day. Thanks for watching!
And what is the next step of your idiotic nonsense? To liberate Italy and Germany from all anti-slawic elements? And what is your job? Secret service idiot of the USA?
 
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historycisalpin

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If you want to deny the objective evidence with your imaginative and allegorical reconstructions, go ahead, the facts are these, regardless of your negation and pangermanist approach, as well as being all too Germanocentric for my tastes.

Best regards from Cisalpina!
 
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P.S.

As a Lombard I think I have a much more accurate historical vision of my land than you can, if you allow. Reason for which I repeat for the umpteenth time that the Winnili / Winnilowie were of Proto-Slavic lineage, certainly not Germanic.

Again I extend my greetings to you from the pre-Alpine area of Cisalpina.
 

zaangalewa

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If you want to deny the objective evidence with your imaginative and allegorical reconstructions, go ahead, the facts are these, regardless of your negation and pangermanist approach, as well as being all too Germanocentric for my tastes.

Best regards from Cisalpina!
U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e One man alone is not able to be so stupid as you play to be. First of all is nothing what you say combined with an Italian mentality - specailly not the menatality of Don Camillo and Pepone - so I doubt that you are an Italian - and second were the Veneti not Proto-Slaws.

As far as I know the Slaws came from the region around Kiev about 1500 years ago. Slaws were for sure not ancestors of the Italians.
 

zaangalewa

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As a Lombard I think I have a much more accurate historical vision of my land than you can, if you allow. Reason for which I repeat for the umpteenth time that the Winnili / Winnilowie were of Proto-Slavic lineage, certainly not Germanic.

Again I extend my greetings to you from the pre-Alpine area of Cisalpina.
Not to forget: To call Langobards "Slaws" or "Proto-Slaws" is idiotic. This has nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy. Ask Lombards.
 
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If the theory spread in Eastern Europe concerning the fact of giving a proto-Slavic and Slavic origin of a part of the populations counted as Germanic (Celtic and Scandinavian), it may turn out to be idiotic, from my point of view, even more so, is just as idiotic is the theory laid down by a certain factional school of thought which tends to Germanise any ancient population, or almost, in the wake of a Pangermanism / Germanocentrism which has now fallen from all objective and rational truthfulness.

Best regards from
Luca
 

zaangalewa

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If the theory spread in Eastern Europe concerning the fact of giving a proto-Slavic and Slavic origin of a part of the populations counted as Germanic (Celtic and Scandinavian), it may turn out to be idiotic, from my point of view, even more so, is just as idiotic is the theory laid down by a certain factional school of thought which tends to Germanise any ancient population, or almost, in the wake of a Pangermanism / Germanocentrism which has now fallen from all objective and rational truthfulness.

Best regards from
Luca
"Pangermanism" is not a word which makes any sense in the German language. Example: No one sees - and never saw - in France (name comes from the German tribe "Franken") anything what anyone could call "Pangermanismus" only because the German tribe "Franken" is very important for the French identity. And no one thinks Lombards are Germans because the Langobards lived in Italy. I know that my ancestors had always good relations to the Langobards. I asked myselve what had happened with them and never found an answer. If their grand-grand-... granchildren are today Italians - what changes this?

By the way: Slowenia was always associated with the holy empire - although it was only a little slawic state - which was founded in the 6th century (Name: Karantien). It was christianized 788 from the Franks, became part of the holy empire in the 11th century, became in 1364 the dukedom Krain, was later part of Austria-Hungaria and was made from the allies to a part of the artificial state Yugoslavia and is since 1992 now an independent state and member of the UNO.

I guess you have a very big problem with racism and totally wrong ideas about real history.
 
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zaangalewa

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These instead are Germanic phenotypes: the one on the right is an Italian journalist, the one on the left a German journalist invited to an Italian television broadcast, note the similarity.

View attachment 346500
In northern Italy these phenotypes are also found:

View attachment 383902

View attachment 383903

View attachment 383904

View attachment 383905

View attachment 383906

View attachment 383907

View attachment 383908

View attachment 383910
The most impressive character is on the third picture from below on the third position (=the last position) on the right side. She's a lady who knows what's best on planet Earth: Leckerlis! (Dogs understand German - all other languages they have to translate first). ... What a wonderful nose she has. A real masterpiece of the creation. ... And what wonderful eyes ... and this noble head ... very wonderful creature ...

 
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The toponym derives from the German:

download (2).jpg

181215813-934c8a28-fdac-4dc4-8c76-e597179d9a25-420x252.jpg


But the people of Bergamo, from a phenotypic and genotypic point of view, are a set of different lineages (Slavic - Germanic - Andalusian - Spanish - Italic / Roman, Ligurian and Hellenic). Yes, its history does not begin with the barbarian invasions of the Middle Ages, but is much older.
The toponym of the Lombardy region derives, however, from the Longobards.
 

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The toponym derives from the German:

View attachment 384078
View attachment 384090

But the people of Bergamo, from a phenotypic and genotypic point of view, are a set of different lineages (Slavic - Germanic - Andalusian - Spanish - Italic / Roman, Ligurian and Hellenic). Yes, its history does not begin with the barbarian invasions of the Middle Ages, but is much older.
The toponym of the Lombardy region derives, however, from the Longobards.
Tell me what's your problem with Slaws. And what has this to do with the Arabs and/or Berber from Andalusia? And why did you try to exclude the Veneti by "sending" them over whole Europe, while they stayed just simple in Italy? Why is it so important for you to try to reduce the Lombardian and/or Italian history to something what is totally unimportant and/or wrong? What's your intentition? The phenotype between the people in the middle of Italy is by the way often very different - but the genotype is in general most near. That was a result of a study for the effectiveness of medicaments. Astonishing, isn't it?

 
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My intent is certainly not racial or supremacist, mind you!
It is just another point of view that official (and factious) historiography usually tends to exclude a priori.
Many Venetians today bear surnames of Slavic origins, as well as a part of the toponymy and so on.

The sharing of a similar genome gives us the romantic illusion of a certain similarity that in fact does not exist, if one is formed only with one part of it while the other with an entirely other part. it would be like saying that, in fact, we are the same because we share the same rim of a bicycle, when then, the spokes of the same differ from each other, in this case some spokes of the same rim form what you are, even from the phenotypic point of view, while other spokes, different, always of the same rim, form what your brother is (for example), also from the phenotypic point of view. But this, in my opinion, cannot be defined as equality, both genotypic and phenotypic.

This is the reason why, although sharing approximately the same genome, there is a very relevant phenotypic dimorphism, precisely because, differently from isolated tribes, which have been able to maintain their genetic makeup, consequently to their original phenotypic aspect, we are a mixture of different kits, which is why we share the same wheel rim, but with spokes that differ from each other.
 

zaangalewa

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My intent is certainly not racial or supremacist, mind you!
It is just another point of view that official (and factious) historiography usually tends to exclude a priori.
Many Venetians today bear surnames of Slavic origins, as well as a part of the toponymy and so on.

The sharing of a similar genome gives us the romantic illusion of a certain similarity that in fact does not exist, if one is formed only with one part of it while the other with an entirely other part. it would be like saying that, in fact, we are the same because we share the same rim of a bicycle, when then, the spokes of the same differ from each other, in this case some spokes of the same rim form what you are, even from the phenotypic point of view, while other spokes, different, always of the same rim, form what your brother is (for example), also from the phenotypic point of view. But this, in my opinion, cannot be defined as equality, both genotypic and phenotypic.

This is the reason why, although sharing approximately the same genome, there is a very relevant phenotypic dimorphism, precisely because, differently from isolated tribes, which have been able to maintain their genetic makeup, consequently to their original phenotypic aspect, we are a mixture of different kits, which is why we share the same wheel rim, but with spokes that differ from each other.
Then history of the Lombardy has nothing to do with Slaws, Berbers or Arabs.

I said in my last post: "The phenotype between the people in the middle of Italy is by the way often very different - but the genotype is in general most near. That was a result of a study for the effectiveness of medicaments."
This sentence makes no sense . I forgot to write some words. I liked to say:"The phenotype between the people in the middle of Italy and Germans is by the way often very different - but the genotype is in general most near. That was a result of a study for the effectiveness of medicaments."
 
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But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. The hypothesis puts it on the plate the essay Immigration of the Moorish populations in the Bergamo Valleys by Stefano Bombardieri, contained in the 15th issue of the Quaderni Brembani, bulletin of the Centro Storico Culturale Valle Brembana Felice Riceputi, which will be presented on Saturday 26 November, at 3 pm, at the Museum of the Zogno Valley.

Just a hypothesis. The arrival of the Moorish populations on our mountains could even date back to more than 1000 years ago, when they began to move from the south of Spain, from the Almeria region. But it is only a starting point, certainly not an incontrovertible thesis. In more recent history, among other things, the term moriscos (Moorish, in fact) has been used to indicate the Muslims of Spain who forcibly embraced the Christian religion between 1492, the year of the end of the Reconquista, and 1526. The name was moreover, it was used, with a derogatory connotation, also for their descendants, until the definitive expulsion of the Muslims, decreed in the five-year period 1609-1614. For Muslims who - in exchange for a tribute - had instead been allowed to live in the Christian territories preceding the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula, the Castilian word Mudejar was used instead. The conversion process was supported by the ecclesiastical authorities and, in particular, by the archbishop of Toledo Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros, regent of Spain who, starting from 1498, began a forced conversion of the Arabs, Berbers and Hispanics in general. Islamic faith of the Iberian Peninsula, present in those territories for over 800 years.


The story must be taken at 360 degrees and from different angles, otherwise it risks being mystified through romantic visions that are not entirely truthful.
As I wrote to you in the previous post, in the Triveneto the Slavic sector is present both in surnames and in toponymy. Prospero Antonini (and not only him) already spoke of Slavic colonies settled in Friuli Venezia Giulia (what is called the Italian Slavs). In fact, there the Slavic heritage is not only present in the surnames and toponymy, but also in the dialect language - and not only.
 

zaangalewa

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But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. ...
What is for you the difference between real history and personal fantasy? Arabs - or Muslims in general - have nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy. Slaws have also nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy.
 

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