Interesting theory that of the Venetians - Vandals and Longobards of Protoslav lineage

[zaangalewa]

... Just a hypothesis. The arrival of the Moorish populations on our mountains could even date back to more than 1000 years ago, when they began to move from the south of Spain, from the Almeria region. ...

What makes not any sense, because in the Lombardy never in history lived Muslims. The movement from Muslims to Europe is a very young phenomenon of the last decades. And to live in the Alps and the regions around this mountains was not really the lifestyle of Berber. The most famous Berber today are the Touareg. The Moors from Spain (Andalusia) went back to North Africa or other regions of the Osman Empire.

 

[zaangalewa]

But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. The hypothesis puts it on the plate the essay Immigration of the Moorish populations in the Bergamo Valleys by Stefano Bombardieri, contained in the 15th issue of the Quaderni Brembani, bulletin of the Centro Storico Culturale Valle Brembana Felice Riceputi, which will be presented on Saturday 26 November, at 3 pm, at the Museum of the Zogno Valley.

Just a hypothesis. The arrival of the Moorish populations on our mountains could even date back to more than 1000 years ago, when they began to move from the south of Spain, from the Almeria region. But it is only a starting point, certainly not an incontrovertible thesis. In more recent history, among other things, the term moriscos (Moorish, in fact) has been used to indicate the Muslims of Spain who forcibly embraced the Christian religion between 1492, the year of the end of the Reconquista, and 1526. The name was moreover, it was used, with a derogatory connotation, also for their descendants, until the definitive expulsion of the Muslims, decreed in the five-year period 1609-1614. For Muslims who - in exchange for a tribute - had instead been allowed to live in the Christian territories preceding the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula, the Castilian word Mudejar was used instead. The conversion process was supported by the ecclesiastical authorities and, in particular, by the archbishop of Toledo Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros, regent of Spain who, starting from 1498, began a forced conversion of the Arabs, Berbers and Hispanics in general. Islamic faith of the Iberian Peninsula, present in those territories for over 800 years.

Altro che cognomi bergamaschi Molti potrebbero essere africani - Prima Bergamo

Lo ipotizza il saggio Immigrazione delle popolazioni moresche nelle Valli bergamasche di Stefano Bombardieri, nell'annuario del centro Felice Riceputi.

primabergamo.it

The story must be taken at 360 degrees and from different angles, otherwise it risks being mystified through romantic visions that are not entirely truthful.
As I wrote to you in the previous post, in the Triveneto the Slavic sector is present both in surnames and in toponymy.

Slaws played not any role in the history of Lombardy. Specially were the Veneti never Slaws but Italians, who spoke once a language which had a common root with Latin.

Prospero Antonini (and not only him) already spoke of Slavic colonies settled in Friuli Venezia Giulia (what is called the Italian Slavs). In fact, there the Slavic heritage is not only present in the surnames and toponymy, but also in the dialect language - and not only.

I the near of Friuli Venezia Giulia is Slovenia. Slaws had conquered Slovenia around 1500 years ago and live since this time there. But this is not a root of Italy or the Lombardy. It shows only that Italians and Germans never were racists in history, because otherwise they had eliminated the Slovenes, who were only very few people.

 

[historycisalpin]

But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. ...

What is for you the difference between real history and personal fantasy? Arabs - or Muslims in general - have nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy. Slaws have also nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy.

You have an all too Germanocentric conception of Lombardy, as well as of the neighboring regions, this is dictated in part by traditional historiography that tends to monopolize history, sometimes mystifying it, on the other hand, by a romantic vision, which serves as a watershed between a Europe , in quotation marks "" Aryan "", with the Slavic one, but which does not correspond to a rational multidirectional approach, as history, as a whole, is never unidirectional.

It would be like saying that America (and its origins) is white and Christian, but it would be an exaggeration, a mystification of reality to justify colonialism and the slavery of Europeans.

 

[zaangalewa]

But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. ...

What is for you the difference between real history and personal fantasy? Arabs - or Muslims in general - have nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy. Slaws have also nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy.

You have an all too Germanocentric conception of Lombardy, ...

I have no conception at all about the Lombardy. But it's totally idiotic to speak in this context from a foundation from Slaws and/or Muslims.

 

[zaangalewa]

But yet:

Those who boast their typically Bergamasco surname, with centuries of tradition behind them, might have a surprise. For charity, the Orobic curriculum will not be affected, but for a series of families from A to T - such as Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, up to the unsuspected Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi - the Moorish origin, that is an Afro-Muslim origin, with an Iberian filter, would not be excluded. ...

What is for you the difference between real history and personal fantasy? Arabs - or Muslims in general - have nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy. Slaws have also nothing to do with the history of the Lombardy.

You have an all too Germanocentric conception of Lombardy, as well as of the neighboring regions, this is dictated in part by traditional historiography that tends to monopolize history, sometimes mystifying it, on the other hand, by a romantic vision, which serves as a watershed between a Europe , in quotation marks "" Aryan "", with the Slavic one, but which does not correspond to a rational multidirectional approach, as history, as a whole, is never unidirectional.

Aryans have to do with the Iran. Another total idiotic nonsense to call Germans "Aryans".

It would be like saying that America (and its origins) is white and Christian, but it would be an exaggeration, a mystification of reality to justify colonialism and the slavery of Europeans.

What a bullshit. What do you speak about when you use the word "America" here? The USA? "America" was by the way the name for a new continent from the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller, who had honored with this name the Italian navigator Amerigo Vespucchi.

 

[historycisalpin]

I have no conception at all about the Lombardy.

You answered yourself

However, I have never stated that they had a major role in the formation of Lombardy, so much so that the Moorish populations mainly touched the coastal area of Liguria and then advanced into Piedmont. Here in Lombardy we speak of sporadic traces, nothing compared to the Celtic - Germanic and Slavic ones, not to mention what the ancient Romans left.

 

[historycisalpin]

Aryans have to do with the Iran. Another total idiotic nonsense to call Germans "Aryans".

And do you tell me?

I was referring precisely to Bernal's theory on the "Aryan model", which was born in modern Europe in the late eighteenth century and affirmed itself above all in the nineteenth century: "Bernal states that the" Aryan model "would have triumphed not because of its greater plausibility, but for a series of external causes: first of all the rise of romanticism; then the rise of European racism linked to colonialism and, within racism, the rise of anti-Semitism ".

And here he fully agrees.

What a bullshit. What do you speak about when you use the word "America" here? The USA? "America" was by the way the name for a new continent from the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller, who had honored with this name the Italian navigator Amerigo Vespucchi.

And do you tell me?

However, you have not answered on the matter, but only shifted attention to another matter.
They are small games, which have no effect with myself.

 

[zaangalewa]

I have no conception at all about the Lombardy.

You answered yourself

However, I have never stated that they had a major role in the formation of Lombardy, so much so that the Moorish populations ...

Muslims never lived in the Lombardy. The Moorish, who did not like to become Christians in Spain, went to the Osman empire.

 

[zaangalewa]

Aryans have to do with the Iran. Another total idiotic nonsense to call Germans "Aryans".

And do you tell me?

I was referring precisely to Bernal's theory on the "Aryan model", which was born in modern Europe in the late eighteenth century and affirmed itself above all in the nineteenth century: "Bernal states that the" Aryan model "would have triumphed not because of its greater plausibility, but for a series of external causes: first of all the rise of romanticism; then the rise of European racism linked to colonialism and, within racism, the rise of anti-Semitism ". ...

Nonsense is nonsense.

 

[zaangalewa]

historycisalpin

I'm not able to find something out about the etymology of this names:

... Alcaini, Astori, Bigoni, Bonzi, Ceroni, Donati, Donzelli, Fanzago, Grigis, Girardi, Gavazzi, Manzoni, ... Cattaneo, Locatelli, Pesenti, Personeni, Roncalli and Tiraboschi ...

Why do you think this names - ¿typical names of the people in the Lombardy? - are coming from the language of the Berber? Do you have a source for this idea? Perhaps this are just simple names from the South of Italy, where Muslims once lived? "Girardi" for example sounds French ("Gerard") . "Astor" for example comes from "Astur" (hawk), that's a word from the Provence. ...

 

[historycisalpin]

Immigration of the Moorish populations in the Bergamo valleys

http://www.valbrembanaweb.it/centroculturale/QUADERNI-BREMBANI-15.pdf

From page 146, a study by Stefano Bombardieri

 

[zaangalewa]

Immigration of the Moorish populations in the Bergamo valleys ...

... makes not any sense.

Langobards are Germanics. Vandals are Germanics. The Veneti are in analogy to the word Germanics "Italianics" (they spoke a Latin-like language). Other peopel who are called Veneti in Europe are not the same people like the Veneti in their home country Italy.

It is possible that the languages of the Berber (=Moorish) overtook Germanic expressions - as well in Spain (House of Habsburg) - as well in Northafrica, where the Vandals made holidays for a longer time in history and dissapeared - while the Langobards disappeared in the North of Italy.

For sure Germanics here (Bavarians) met as well Vandals and Langobards, when they were still existing and were able to communicate with them without interpreter. So Vandals and Langobards were without any doubt for sure Germanics.

You gave me a list of 18 names which are a prove in your way to think that the Moorish came to North Italy after the Spanish had thrown this Moorish out of Spain, who did not like to become Christians. So what would make any sense for Moorish people to travel to the North of Italy, where they also had to become Christians?

And about this list of 18 names - I guess 2 of them have French roots - you say they have roots in the language of the Berber (and/or Moorish). I know that an emperor of the holy Roman empire lived in Sicily, where not only Christians but also lots of Jews and Muslims lived. So an influence from Arabs and Berber is existing in Italy. So is it possible that this names, which sound strange for you in the North of Italy, are coming just simple from the South of Italy? This would make much more sense.

And do me the favor now to explain to me how you - or anyone else - found out that the name "Ceroni" for example has Moorish roots. For me this sound typically Italian. I see nothing what makes this word to a word from a foreign language in Italy.

 

[historycisalpin]

Obviously she doesn't give importance to the PDF I posted, where there are all the answers she is looking for, as well as notarial deeds that certify the Moorish origin of many families who migrated from Andalusia to the Bergamo valleys in the Middle Ages.

As for the Winnili / Winnilowie (it is incorrect and misleading to call them with the Latinized name of the Langobards, rather than with the original one), but also the Vandals and Venetians (and not only), most likely they were of Proto Slavic lineage, certainly not Germanic as affirmed by her, in perfect line with the "" Aryan "theory. All this is confirmed, in part, by the etymological origin of such populations, which recall more Slavic than Germanic, as I promptly mentioned at the beginning of my discussion.
Even the Scandinavian peninsula was Slavicized in the course of its history, which is purposely obscured and mystified by the so-called traditional Nordic / Germanic history. Moreover, the absence of archaeological finds clearly attributable to the Winnilowie in Scandinavia has led some historians to think that the late testimonies of the descendant of the Winnili - Paolo Diacono and of the Origo gentis Langobardorum, are actually incorrect and not exactly truthful.

If you try to deny the evidence, more for an ideological nature than for a proven existence of sources, that's your problem, and I'm certainly not here to change your mind.

 

[zaangalewa]

Obviously she doesn't give importance to the PDF I posted, where there are all the answers she is looking for, as well as notarial deeds that certify the Moorish origin of many families who migrated from Andalusia to the Bergamo valleys in the Middle Ages.

As for the Winnili / Winnilowie (it is incorrect and misleading to call them with the Latinized name of the Langobards, rather than with the original one), but also the Vandals and Venetians (and not only), most likely they were of Proto Slavic lineage, certainly not Germanic as affirmed by her, in perfect line with the "" Aryan "theory. All this is confirmed, in part, by the etymological origin of such populations, which recall more Slavic than Germanic, as I promptly mentioned at the beginning of my discussion. ...

Bye bye. I'm tired about this nonsense now. And Aryans - if they ever had existed at all and were not only a mystic population - have to do with the Persian region - and not with Europe.

 

[historycisalpin]

You can continue with your pro-Germanic mystifications and think that mine are all nonsense, after all "Ille nihil dubitat qui nullam scientiam habet".

I always put them on

 

[zaangalewa]

You can continue with your pro-Germanic mystifications and think that mine are all nonsense, after all "Ille nihil dubitat qui nullam scientiam habet".

I always put them on View attachment 386458

Strange

 

[xyz]

These etymological comparisons could reveal a set of proto-slave populations gathered from the same origin.

Of course the map shows them all over the place because of the migrations at that time, but I remember reading somewhere that the name indicated people who lived on coastal wetlands. I guess this would mean mean the word for water voda comes from a hypothetical *venda or *vonda.

 

[Vagabond63]

So if I understand this thread, most of Europe is Slavic/Slavonic in origin? Two points:
1. Is there any genetic evidence that links eastern European Slavs and say, French or Italians?
2. Linguistically are there any Slavic loan words in Western European literature dating back to before the 3rd century CE?

 

[zaangalewa]

These etymological comparisons could reveal a set of proto-slave populations gathered from the same origin.

Of course the map shows them all over the place because of the migrations at that time, but I remember reading somewhere that the name indicated people who lived on coastal wetlands. I guess this would mean mean the word for water voda comes from a hypothetical *venda or *vonda.

This map is still a totally idiotic nonsense.

 

[Vagabond63]

These etymological comparisons could reveal a set of proto-slave populations gathered from the same origin.

Of course the map shows them all over the place because of the migrations at that time, but I remember reading somewhere that the name indicated people who lived on coastal wetlands. I guess this would mean mean the word for water voda comes from a hypothetical *venda or *vonda.

This map is still a totally idiotic nonsense.

Inclined to agree, at least as far as the Venedoti in Britain are concerned. Here the word comes from a Latinisation of a Brythonic word meaning forest dwellers. Celtic culture long pre dates Slavic or even proto Slavic.