Zone1 Intellectual Honesty

How intellectually honest am I? Do I want truth more than I want to be right?

  • I am never wrong so I don't have to admit any mistakes.

  • I am sometimes wrong and it is easy to admit it.

  • I am sometimes wrong but I usually don't admit it.

  • I am sometimes wrong and I will never admit it.


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It really depends though. There are many fundamentalists who honestly believe what they believe and they are not being at all intellectually dishonest when they say what they believe. They may be very very wrong, but they believe it.

Again intellectual honesty does not require a person to be right. Only that the person sincerely believes he/she is right in his/her belief.

But those who promote concepts/situations/events in ways that they know in their hearts and minds are not the whole story or the actual story at all are being intellectually dishonest. when they do that.

Example:
The MSM/'legacy media' of course had to see the signs that Joe Biden was suffering from advanced dementia and there was no way he was actually doing the job of President of the United States. But they continued to defend and protect him and refused to report what they knew. And then there was that terrible debate between Trump and Biden that I am convinced set Biden up so they could pretend for the first time to see how mentally damaged he was.

And that set the stage for the Democrat Party to remove him as candidate for a second presidential term.

All that was blatant intellectual dishonesty on the part of those who desperately wanted to believe but you know they really didn't.

Intellectual honesty requires that you seek the truth, and know the truth, as well as speak it. If you honestly believe something that isn't true, you are not being intellectually honest at all because you have no idea of the truth of your beliefs.


Joe Biden does not have "advanced dementia". That's a complete lie. He older and his stamina is an issue, leading to confusion, but his does not have "dementia" and it is DISHONEST of you to say it, both factually and intellectually.
 
It's the blowhard approach to reality denial.

If you can concoct no credible evidence of you fake claim, bray it loudly and hysterically, and your cult will mindlessly parrot your false claims.

It's not just the Cult that parrot these lies. The billionaire owned right wing media also faithfully parrots and reinforces these lies as well. Gotta keep the Cult voting for those tax cuts.
 
The latest in intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by the Left:

It is being batted around that Elon Musk has proposed that Derek Chauvin should be pardoned.

The Left is accusing "President" Musk of pretending he has the power to pardon somebody. That is intellectual dishonesty.

Intellectual honesty: any citizen has the right of free speech in this country to propose anything he/she wants to propose other than deliberately inciting a riot or some such. Citizen Elon Musk, if accurately quoted, has not even hinted that he has the power to pardon anybody but is exercising his constitutional right to say that he thinks a pardon should be considered in that case.
 
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Today I'm reading on USMB that the left is accusing Trump of wanting a parade in his honor.

My response to that on another thread:
"Trump wants a Parade to commemorate the Army's 250th Anniversary--quite appropriate and proper. It would be unthinkable to not recognize that.

June 14, that anniversary, also happens to be Trump's 79th birthday. He didn't pick his birthday and he has joked about a parade in his honor on his birthday.

If he didn't commemorate that anniversary you people would probably be back to your equally dishonest mantra of "he hates/disrespects the military."

You people repeating dishonest media spin becomes increasingly nauseating. Just once a smidgeon of intellectual honesty would be so refreshing."
 
Today I'm reading on USMB that the left is accusing Trump of wanting a parade in his honor.

My response to that on another thread:
"Trump wants a Parade to commemorate the Army's 250th Anniversary--quite appropriate and proper. It would be unthinkable to not recognize that.

June 14, that anniversary, also happens to be Trump's 79th birthday. He didn't pick his birthday and he has joked about a parade in his honor on his birthday.

If he didn't commemorate that anniversary you people would probably be back to your equally dishonest mantra of "he hates/disrespects the military."

You people repeating dishonest media spin becomes increasingly nauseating. Just once a smidgeon of intellectual honesty would be so refreshing."
honesty would be to ask yourself, What if Biden had his birthday military parade.
 
The latest in intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by the Left:

It is being batted around that Elon Musk has proposed that Derek Chauvin should be pardoned.

The Left is accusing "President" Musk of pretending he has the power to pardon somebody. That is intellectual dishonesty.

Intellectual honesty: any citizen has the right of free speech in this country to propose anything he/she wants to propose other than deliberately inciting a riot or some such. Citizen Elon Musk, if accurately quoted, has not even hinted that he has the power to pardon anybody but is exercising his constitutional right to say that he thinks a pardon should be considered in that case.
Can you, for once, quote someone saying such a thing?
 
Today I'm reading on USMB that the left is accusing Trump of wanting a parade in his honor.

My response to that on another thread:
"Trump wants a Parade to commemorate the Army's 250th Anniversary--quite appropriate and proper. It would be unthinkable to not recognize that.

June 14, that anniversary, also happens to be Trump's 79th birthday. He didn't pick his birthday and he has joked about a parade in his honor on his birthday.

If he didn't commemorate that anniversary you people would probably be back to your equally dishonest mantra of "he hates/disrespects the military."

You people repeating dishonest media spin becomes increasingly nauseating. Just once a smidgeon of intellectual honesty would be so refreshing."
Lots of “probablies” and “he was joking” there. I guess we can’t take him at his word...another sign that you worship a dishonest person.
 
All other things being equal, you can probably tell who is honest and who is dishonest by how often they admit they were wrong; not how often they claim to be right.

Let me prove that I am never wrong

We think we’re correct when we post something...thats a given. When you can admit you were wrong...that is when you’re displaying honesty.

The OP has never come close.
 
Intellectual honesty and politics are mutually exclusive. Name me one honest politician. Just one. We all know Trump lies, and Biden never told the truth in over 50 years. Was Obama honest? GW Bush didn't even pretend to be honest, it was obvious he was always lying. Bill "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Clinton? He also never stopped lying. I learned long ago that politics is the art of lying. We elect the best liars. And we lie for them. Paradoxically, anyone who doesn't lie for political advantage is not intellectually honest.
 
All other things being equal, you can probably tell who is honest and who is dishonest by how often they admit they were wrong; not how often they claim to be right.



We think we’re correct when we post something...thats a given. When you can admit you were wrong...that is when you’re displaying honesty.

The OP has never come close.
Interesting post......

So, were you wrong in voting for this?

Race and gender preferences

Language police

No punishment for criminals

Open borders

Attacks on the Supreme Court

Transgender sports competitions

Antisemitism

Wealth tax

Cancel culture

Welfare State

Government run healthcare mandates

Sanctuary Cities

Two-Tiered Justice system





I know times change, but I kinda miss that "jumbo" thing.
 
honesty would be to ask yourself, What if Biden had his birthday military parade.
If Biden's birthday happened to fall on the same day as the 250th Anniversary of the establishment of the U.S. Army, I wouldn't have a problem with him observing that. The Parade is to commemorate the Army event, not the birthday.

But then I try very hard to be intellectually honest and not deliberately put out dishonest propaganda as you just did.
 
The latest in intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by the Left:

It is being batted around that Elon Musk has proposed that Derek Chauvin should be pardoned.

The Left is accusing "President" Musk of pretending he has the power to pardon somebody. That is intellectual dishonesty.

Intellectual honesty: any citizen has the right of free speech in this country to propose anything he/she wants to propose other than deliberately inciting a riot or some such. Citizen Elon Musk, if accurately quoted, has not even hinted that he has the power to pardon anybody but is exercising his constitutional right to say that he thinks a pardon should be considered in that case.

You really need to learn the definition of "intellectual dishonesty", because this entire thread is your attempt to justify your own intellectual dishonesty in voting for a liar and a convicted felon.

The left isn't "pretending" Musk has the power of the pardon. That's a complete lie and it exposes your own intellectual dishonesty. The left believes that Musk has some control over Trump and what Trump does because of the money he spent getting Trump elected.

Where is your attempt to discern the truth of your statement? Where is your link supporting your false statement.

You once posted that you were half an hour into the Superbowl before you saw a TV commercial with all white faces in it. That told me exactly WHY you vote for a racist like Trump. There's your "intellectual honesty" right there.
 
Today I'm reading on USMB that the left is accusing Trump of wanting a parade in his honor.

My response to that on another thread:
"Trump wants a Parade to commemorate the Army's 250th Anniversary--quite appropriate and proper. It would be unthinkable to not recognize that.

June 14, that anniversary, also happens to be Trump's 79th birthday. He didn't pick his birthday and he has joked about a parade in his honor on his birthday.

If he didn't commemorate that anniversary you people would probably be back to your equally dishonest mantra of "he hates/disrespects the military."

You people repeating dishonest media spin becomes increasingly nauseating. Just once a smidgeon of intellectual honesty would be so refreshing."

The left isn't "accusing" Trump of wanting a parade. That's a lie and it's dishonest of you to frame his demand in this way. Since when did the USA celebrate ANYTHING on June 14th.

Trump wanted a parade the last time he was in office. He's been very vocal about it which is further proof of your intellectual dishonesty when it comes to Trump. And this is a reminder that believing the lies and not seeking the truth, is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, just once a smidgeon of intellectual honest from YOU would be appreciated.
 
ZONE 1 everybody so keep it civil:

When it comes to sociopolitical issues, conspiracy theories abound on both sides of the aisle as do cherished beliefs based on partisan ideology.

While it certainly does not apply to all on the left, and does not exclude everybody on the right, the propensity of those in control of the message on the left--government, media, education, entertainment, etc.--to deliberately and intentionally spread disinformation and detract from honest evidence for political gain makes me presume they believe they are morally justified in doing that. So the topic probably won't be of much if any interest to them.

So this discussion will be directed mostly to those on the right who I believe are more likely to think they are justified in believing what they believe.

But if practical strategy makes intellectual honesty scarce on the left, how much can be found on the right?

One of the hardest things any of us will have to do is give up a cherished conviction or belief when we are shown that it cannot be supported with evidence. And it becomes far more difficult (and usually embarrassing) when we have emphatically and passionately argued for a point of view and find out we are wrong.

Who among us has never been involved in a passionate argument with somebody when there is that horrible feeling akin to panic when we suddenly realize we are wrong?

How we handle those situations reveals how intellectually honest we actually are.

So those of us on the right. Are we intellectually honest? Or do we doggedly hold onto our conviction or what we want to be truth regardless of what information calls it into question or discredits it entirely? Do we allow others a different opinion or disparage them because of it?

In this thread I hope we will be able to explore some of our convictions and beliefs that we might seriously consider rethinking. And it will be fair game for us to defend those convictions and beliefs that we are confident can be competently defended.

(Poll options are anonymous and can be changed if you change your mind. I hope at least some will be willing to admit/reveal their choices though.)

Some topics involving conspiracy theories some true, some not, some unproven that keep resurfacing over the years are listed below. This is NOT intended to be a complete list and certainly other topics can be discussed here:

--The Mexican tall ship hitting the bridge was intentional
--Epstein's death
--The FBI had agents helping instigate the riot on J6
--The Democrats helped instigate the riot on J6
--Trump instigated the riot on J6
--The media and Democrats covered up Biden's dementia
--Trump colluded with the Russians
--Many unexplained deaths involving the Clintons
--9/11 was an inside job
--Kennedy and the gunmen on the grassy knoll
--Trump only wants to benefit billionaires

Obviously we could go on and on but how much of any of this do we believe or not believe? And could anything change our mind?
I think you need to add another option. "I think I'm sometimes wrong and although it's never easy, I usually admit to it. (I don't say always and add I think, because the hardest thing to do is knowing you're wrong to begin with.)

The reason being that admitting you're wrong is never easy. Especially I suspect for people who think arguing with people about politics is fun, like all of those on this board by definition do.

I picked the second option, because it was closest. Since I don't care about anonymity and think I can defend my intellectual honesty across the board.

Not only have I said I'm wrong here about something I believe, countless times on this board. I have changed my mind completely and publicly as a result of what I was discussing.

Intellectual honesty is something very important to me. Since without it there's very little chance of having a real discussion. And in my view those on the right are very seldom/never actually intellectually honest.

Feel free to have a discussion and prove me wrong. A discussion without fallacies.
 
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The left isn't "accusing" Trump of wanting a parade. That's a lie and it's dishonest of you to frame his demand in this way. Since when did the USA celebrate ANYTHING on June 14th.

Trump wanted a parade the last time he was in office. He's been very vocal about it which is further proof of your intellectual dishonesty when it comes to Trump. And this is a reminder that believing the lies and not seeking the truth, is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, just once a smidgeon of intellectual honest from YOU would be appreciated.
Foxfyre seems to confuse having a genuine belief with intellectual honesty. In an OP he started about intellectual honesty. How ironic.

Intellectual honesty is a device to give yourself the best chance of discerning the truth. Admitting you're wrong is a part of it. But what's more important is the way you approach the topic. Intellectual honesty is rules you impose on yourself. It's making a genuine effort to not simply give your own opinion but defend it on merit, without using fallacious arguments. If you can do that you will reach a conclusion that is likely accurate to a certain point.

At no point does genuine belief play a part in it. You can believe in something with your whole heart and be completely intellectual dishonest about your defense of the opinion. You can also not believe in your position and still discuss it in an intellectually honest way.
 
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Foxfyre seems to confuse having a genuine belief with intellectual honesty. In an OP he started about intellectual honesty. How ironic.

Intellectual honesty is a device to give yourself the best chance of discerning the truth. Admitting you're wrong is a part of it. But what's more important is the way you approach the topic. Intellectual honesty is rules you impose on yourself. It's making a genuine effort to not simply give your own opinion but defend it on merit, without using fallacious arguments. If you can do that you will reach a conclusion that is likely accurate to a certain point.

At no point does genuine belief play a part in it. You can believe in something with your whole heart and be completely intellectual dishonest about your defense of the opinion. You can also not believe in your position and still discuss it in an intellectually honest way.
I appreciate a reasoned argument and thank you. Those are pretty rare here at USMB.

But I disagree that belief plays no part in it. For instance I have had amicable discussions with flat Earthers who are 100% convinced the Earth is flat. One is a shirttail relative, a college educated RN no less.

They have beautifully designed videos and graphics to illustrate how it works with sunrises and sunsets and such and a number of Bible verses to defend their belief. Alas, because no Bible manuscripts were written by informed scientists, we have no Bible verses saying the Earth is round.

Their religious faith I have no reason to believe is not real. I have sensed no guile in them as they explain why they believe what they believe. Are they wrong? Of course they are. But intellectually dishonest in defending their belief? No.

Now if they harbor doubts about their belief or know that it is incorrect but continue to defend it to please others, to fit in, to pretend to be religiously devout or whatever, then they become intellectually dishonest.

It is the same sort of intellectual dishonesty as those who have been shown time and again that this or that modern day hoax or interpretation of an event has been credibly debunked but continue to put it forth as fact.
 
15th post
I appreciate a reasoned argument and thank you. Those are pretty rare here at USMB.

But I disagree that belief plays no part in it. For instance I have had amicable discussions with flat Earthers who are 100% convinced the Earth is flat. One is a shirttail relative, a college educated RN no less.

They have beautifully designed videos and graphics to illustrate how it works with sunrises and sunsets and such and a number of Bible verses to defend their belief. Alas, because no Bible manuscripts were written by informed scientists, we have no Bible verses saying the Earth is round.

Their religious faith I have no reason to believe is not real. I have sensed no guile in them as they explain why they believe what they believe. Are they wrong? Of course they are. But intellectually dishonest in defending their belief? No.

Now if they harbor doubts about their belief or know that it is incorrect but continue to defend it to please others, to fit in, to pretend to be religiously devout or whatever, then they become intellectually dishonest.

It is the same sort of intellectual dishonesty as those who have been shown time and again that this or that modern day hoax or interpretation of an event has been credibly debunked but continue to put it forth as fact.
Let's take your flat earther friends as an example. And their beautifully designed videos. And their bible verses. Now start debunking them with undisputable facts. Like for instance taking them up to the ISS and they come back by saying. "I don't believe this happened, because here in my bible it says what I just saw with my own eyes is impossible." You point out that you can't verify the Bible is right by going by the bible. They reply, "but the bible says I can as long as long as my believe is strong enough." This is obvious circular reasoning. And not just that it's a reasoning maintained although it requires them to ignore unequivocal evidence to the contrary. Do you contend that that the circular reasoning is any less dishonest because they truly believe in what they say?


That is what intellectual (dis)honesty is.

And this is the relevant paragraph.

rather, propaganda can be thought of as the hub of the wheel, with spokes of logical fallacies emanating out from its center. Logical fallacies are errors in thinking that yield faulty conclusions. Sometimes logical fallacies are the result of ignorance, but many times they are used purposefully
It doesn't matter if they truly believe and don't know that they're doing it. These things are intellectual dishonest by definition.

I'll put it in an example from here.

The latest in intellectual dishonesty demonstrated by the Left:

It is being batted around that Elon Musk has proposed that Derek Chauvin should be pardoned.

The Left is accusing "President" Musk of pretending he has the power to pardon somebody. That is intellectual dishonesty.
This is what you say. It contains a hasty generalization about "the left" because you can't possibly know what the position is for ALL or even a majority of the left, so you put up a strawman for the entire left, since unless this person is an idiot, it's absolutely foolish to claim Musk can personally pardon someone, and more likely is that what was claimed that Musk would use his influence to get Chauvin pardoned by Trump, and then you are begging the question by asserting instead of establishing your premise as true.


Now I will present the same argument, an argument I don't believe in an intellectually honest manner.

"I saw mister X saying that Musk has the right to pardon Chauvin. (source added)"

That's it. Depending on how mister X presented his position he maybe, or maybe not be intellectually honest about it. (I suspect he wouldn't be because it's an unsustainable position for obvious reasons), but for it to by intellectually dishonest he needs to use fallacious arguments or purposefully misrepresent things.

What he believes is irrelevant.

By the way the reason reasoned argument are so rare here because 99 percent of the time those arguments are dismissed by people being intellectually dishonest. I can say without any reservation that I always try (not always successfully) to be intellectually honest. But thank you for the compliment.
 
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I appreciate a reasoned argument and thank you. Those are pretty rare here at USMB.

But I disagree that belief plays no part in it. For instance I have had amicable discussions with flat Earthers who are 100% convinced the Earth is flat. One is a shirttail relative, a college educated RN no less.

They have beautifully designed videos and graphics to illustrate how it works with sunrises and sunsets and such and a number of Bible verses to defend their belief. Alas, because no Bible manuscripts were written by informed scientists, we have no Bible verses saying the Earth is round.

Their religious faith I have no reason to believe is not real. I have sensed no guile in them as they explain why they believe what they believe. Are they wrong? Of course they are. But intellectually dishonest in defending their belief? No.

Now if they harbor doubts about their belief or know that it is incorrect but continue to defend it to please others, to fit in, to pretend to be religiously devout or whatever, then they become intellectually dishonest.

It is the same sort of intellectual dishonesty as those who have been shown time and again that this or that modern day hoax or interpretation of an event has been credibly debunked but continue to put it forth as fact.

But there is no intellectual honesty involved in their stance. They are going on pure faith. Intellectual honesty requires a genuine search for the truth, and not just blind faith that what you're being told is true.
 
Let's take your flat earther friends as an example. And their beautifully designed videos. And their bible verses. Now start debunking them with undisputable facts. Like for instance taking them up to the ISS and they come back by saying. "I don't believe this happened, because here in my bible it says what I just saw with my own eyes is impossible." You point out that you can't verify the Bible is right by going by the bible. They reply, "but the bible says I can as long as long as my believe is strong enough." This is obvious circular reasoning. And not just that it's a reasoning maintained although it requires them to ignore unequivocal evidence to the contrary. Do you contend that that the circular reasoning is any less dishonest because they truly believe in what they say?


That is what intellectual (dis)honesty is.

And this is the relevant paragraph.

rather, propaganda can be thought of as the hub of the wheel, with spokes of logical fallacies emanating out from its center. Logical fallacies are errors in thinking that yield faulty conclusions. Sometimes logical fallacies are the result of ignorance, but many times they are used purposefully
It doesn't matter if they truly believe and don't know that they're doing it. These things are intellectual dishonest by definition.

I'll put it in an example from here.


This is what you say. It contains a hasty generalization about "the left" because you can't possibly know what the position is for ALL or even a majority of the left, so you put up a strawman for the entire left, since unless this person is an idiot, it's absolutely foolish to claim Musk can personally pardon someone, and more likely is that what was claimed that Musk would use his influence to get Chauvin pardoned by Trump, and then you are begging the question by asserting instead of establishing your premise as true.


Now I will present the same argument, an argument I don't believe in an intellectually honest manner.

"I saw mister X saying that Musk has the right to pardon Chauvin. (source added)"

That's it. Depending on how mister X presented his position he maybe, or maybe not be intellectually honest about it. (I suspect he wouldn't be because it's an unsustainable position for obvious reasons), but for it to by intellectually dishonest he needs to use fallacious arguments or purposefully misrepresent things.

What he believes is irrelevant.

By the way the reason reasoned argument are so rare here because 99 percent of the time those arguments are dismissed by people being intellectually dishonest. I can say without any reservation that I always try (not always successfully) to be intellectually honest. But thank you for the compliment.
What one believes can be irrelevant to the truth. What one believes has everything to do with intellectual honesty however.

Flat Earthers, or at least those I've visited with, believe the ISS under the 'dome' covering the Earth so it can be visited. I've not found one however who believes we landed humans on the Moon.

So we can dispute their videos and graphic illustrations until the cows come home and they will not accept our view of the universe that we know to be true. They are just convinced that the videos and data we show them are fake as we are convinced the videos and explanations they use are manipulated/faked or wrong.

Intellectual dishonesty is refusal to include mitigating or exculpatory evidence that we know exists in our argument. That is not what the flat Earthers do. They argue what they believe is true.
 
What one believes can be irrelevant to the truth. What one believes has everything to do with intellectual honesty however.

Flat Earthers, or at least those I've visited with, believe the ISS under the 'dome' covering the Earth so it can be visited. I've not found one however who believes we landed humans on the Moon.

So we can dispute their videos and graphic illustrations until the cows come home and they will not accept our view of the universe that we know to be true. They are just convinced that the videos and data we show them are fake as we are convinced the videos and explanations they use are manipulated/faked or wrong.

Intellectual dishonesty is refusal to include mitigating or exculpatory evidence that we know exists in our argument. That is not what the flat Earthers do. They argue what they believe is true.
I'm sorry but you define intellectual honesty in a way that simply doesn't comport to the actual definition of the term.

Honestly believing and intellectual honesty simply aren't synonyms. I illustrated that by giving one of the definitions I found. But I could have used any. I illustrated that by using your hypothetical, and I illustrated that by using your arguments in this OP.

Honestly believing in something means having a sincere conviction, but intellectual honesty requires a willingness to question, challenge, and seek truth—even when it contradicts personal beliefs. Someone can genuinely believe something, but if they ignore evidence or refuse to consider counterarguments, they’re not practicing intellectual honesty.
 
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