if not evolution

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I told him what we were discussing and he agrees with me that there is no alternate universe with another me. He said "you would have to believe in fate or destiny to believe that".

You can tell him that, if it is assumed that there are infinite subverses, each with a finite amount of information, he is 100% incorrect and can be proven to be incorrect with a fairly simple mathematical proof.

And he says you would have to believe both universes started off the exact same way and with the exact same molecules and atoms which they wouldn't because each universe is different.

He is also wrong about that. While the universe may be deterministic, it is also chaotic. What this means is that two subverses with identical starting states may not share all future states (due to quantum uncertainty), and two subverses with different initial states may display identical states later in their futures.

And lets say Adam and Eve are my first ancestors. Are you suggesting that there is another universe where another adam and eve meet, and their kids meet the same partners and so on down the line until you are born?

I am not suggesting there are ONE or TWO such universes, but actually an INFINITE NUMBER of such universes.

Sorry. There’s only one universe where I exist and we’re in it. Another universe doesn’t have the same anything as us. It’s 100% different. It’s over there and we are here. It was then we are now. Two different marbles. If you make marbles you’ll never make the same marble twice.

Man...

this concept yall are bickering about has the underlying theme that, you really cant wrap your head around the concept of infinity.

True. But we also can't wrap our heads around the concept of one million . We can, however, use mathematics to work with both one million and with infinity.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The fact we cant envision it doesnt prevent us from realizing its implications.

Same goes for infinity...it's actually fairly simple math to work with an infinite set....

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry. There’s only one universe where I exist and we’re in it.

I don't know why you are apologizing...you could not possibly know the truth of that statement, so therefore have not corrected anyone. Nor have you made an argument for it.

The things I am saying are true if we assume a multiverse with an infinite number of subverses.

If you make marbles you’ll never make the same marble twice

100% incorrect, IF you make an infinite number of marbles. Not only will you make the same marble twice, you will make every possible marble an infinite number of times each. Marbles are finite, and so contain a finite amount of information.

No I grabbed into a new pile to make that marble. Different stuff went into each marble. There is infinite stuff to grab from. And they aren’t happening all at the same time. Both marble might be right next to each other but they are different.

I don’t know about subverses

 

[sealybobo]

I told him what we were discussing and he agrees with me that there is no alternate universe with another me. He said "you would have to believe in fate or destiny to believe that".

You can tell him that, if it is assumed that there are infinite subverses, each with a finite amount of information, he is 100% incorrect and can be proven to be incorrect with a fairly simple mathematical proof.

And he says you would have to believe both universes started off the exact same way and with the exact same molecules and atoms which they wouldn't because each universe is different.

He is also wrong about that. While the universe may be deterministic, it is also chaotic. What this means is that two subverses with identical starting states may not share all future states (due to quantum uncertainty), and two subverses with different initial states may display identical states later in their futures.

And lets say Adam and Eve are my first ancestors. Are you suggesting that there is another universe where another adam and eve meet, and their kids meet the same partners and so on down the line until you are born?

I am not suggesting there are ONE or TWO such universes, but actually an INFINITE NUMBER of such universes.

Sorry. There’s only one universe where I exist and we’re in it. Another universe doesn’t have the same anything as us. It’s 100% different. It’s over there and we are here. It was then we are now. Two different marbles. If you make marbles you’ll never make the same marble twice.

Man...

this concept yall are bickering about has the underlying theme that, you really cant wrap your head around the concept of infinity.

And that’s why the god concept took hold. Made sense of it all. It’s not easy. Hell most can’t even grasp how far the nearest star is or how small we are.

I’m not married to the Big Bang or multiverses. In fact you guys have me puzzelled. If infinity means multiple mes then I guess I have to go with that even though I’m not comfortable with it.

It makes more sense then there being nothing beyond or before our universe

 

[sealybobo]

Is evolution a force that radiates throughout the universe?

wouldn't it?
why would there be millions of galaxies--that we can't see without a telescope?

So the force of evolution has been working actively on Earth based crocodiles and monkeys and aquatic life on Titan, Europa and elsewhere?

well, why would god put millions of galaxies in the universe--for us not to see and no life on them?

I'm sure there's life in the solar system and Universe. Have you ever seen the medieval artwork depicting UFOs?

My point is. if evolution works like a force of nature, why have crocodiles been immune to it for 200 million years, but humoinoids get zapped every couple of hundred thousand years?

They are perfect for their environment. Way back our common ancestor split. One became warm blooded and the other cold

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Sorry. There’s only one universe where I exist and we’re in it.

I don't know why you are apologizing...you could not possibly know the truth of that statement, so therefore have not corrected anyone. Nor have you made an argument for it.

The things I am saying are true if we assume a multiverse with an infinite number of subverses.

If you make marbles you’ll never make the same marble twice

100% incorrect, IF you make an infinite number of marbles. Not only will you make the same marble twice, you will make every possible marble an infinite number of times each. Marbles are finite, and so contain a finite amount of information.

No I grabbed into a new pile to make that marble. Different stuff went into each marble. There is infinite stuff to grab from. And they aren’t happening all at the same time. Both marble might be right next to each other but they are different.

I don’t know about subverses

Subverses are the "universes" in the multiverse. Subverse is a better word than 'universe', in that context .

 

[onefour1]

I don't believe that anything comes from Nothing. I believe that the elements, energy and intelligence are eternal by nature. I believe that the intelligence of man and other animals, plants, and even the elements are eternal by nature. There is intelligence that is associated with all matter in the universe. Thus when Moses commanded the Red Sea to part, it was nothing more than obedient intelligence. The intelligence associated with nature obey the laws of Chemistry and Physics unless God commands them to do otherwise. These intelligences give their obedience to God who cares for them and organizes them. So if you have the authority of God, you can say to a mountain, "Move", and it will move or say to water, "Be ye therefore wine" and it will obey. No longer does it go by the standard law of Chemistry or Physics but will obey the will of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:6-13
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I presume that in the eternity past, a God, as a self-existing intelligence, was able to command the elements to form a spirit body and later a physcal body for himself. He was able to give laws to the intelligences that combine with the varying elements for them to obey. He also has learned to organize intelligence and matter into universes and all matter and life that exist. There are varying degrees of intelligence in the universes.

Abraham 3:18-19
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Mankind starts out as a self-existing intelligence. He then becomes personage of spirit with spirit matter that makes up his spirit body.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

God has made creation a part of eternal existence. Procreation of life is a part of existence.

Mankind then takes on a physical body in a mortal sphere and eventually is resurrected to live out eternity combined with the elements of his body.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

 

[Czernobog]

I don't believe that anything comes from Nothing. I believe that the elements, energy and intelligence are eternal by nature. I believe that the intelligence of man and other animals, plants, and even the elements are eternal by nature. There is intelligence that is associated with all matter in the universe. Thus when Moses commanded the Red Sea to part, it was nothing more than obedient intelligence. The intelligence associated with nature obey the laws of Chemistry and Physics unless God commands them to do otherwise. These intelligences give their obedience to God who cares for them and organizes them. So if you have the authority of God, you can say to a mountain, "Move", and it will move or say to water, "Be ye therefore wine" and it will obey. No longer does it go by the standard law of Chemistry or Physics but will obey the will of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:6-13
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I presume that in the eternity past, a God, as a self-existing intelligence, was able to command the elements to form a spirit body and later a physcal body for himself. He was able to give laws to the intelligences that combine with the varying elements for them to obey. He also has learned to organize intelligence and matter into universes and all matter and life that exist. There are varying degrees of intelligence in the universes.

Abraham 3:18-19
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Mankind starts out as a self-existing intelligence. He then becomes personage of spirit with spirit matter that makes up his spirit body.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

God has made creation a part of eternal existence. Procreation of life is a part of existence.

Mankind then takes on a physical body in a mortal sphere and eventually is resurrected to live out eternity combined with the elements of his body.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Yeah...you guys believe in Super Skivvies, so you'll forgive me if I find your opinion of what is, and is not rational to be less than reliable.

 

[onefour1]

I forgive you.

 

[LittleNipper]

If one can believe that evil exists in the world, then one should certainly accept that there is also goodness.and love.

 

[LittleNipper]

I'm glad that there is is a GOD, because there is no way a show like Leave it to Beaver could have existed without godly motivation... Do you know that the actor who played the father was a Presbyterian minister?

 

[sealybobo]

Every other universe is unique

Sorry, not possible, with infinite universes. Take any state of any universe, and , in infinite multiverse theory, that state has occured and will occur an infinite number of times.

Maybe more like a google of universes then. I just don’t see it. I see a flaw in that thinking and since it’s just a theory we can agree to disagree.

There is no infinite dark matter because multiverses exist. And visa versa

What's the flaw? You are the one who has more explaining to do. For instance, you have to argue why there are a google of universes, but not "a google and one" universes.

Are you familiar with the pigeonhole principle? Basically, if you have 10 pigeons amd 9 pigeonholes, you can conclude that at least one pigeonhole exists that contains at least two pigeons.

Now, a finite universe only has a finite number of possible states. These states are your "pigeonholes". And in an infinite multiverse, you have an infinite number of pigeons. So, we know at least one pigeonhole (possible state) has at least two pigeons (duplicate universes).

From here it is easy to argue all the pigeonholes contain infinite numbers of pigeons, as you can argue that no one state is any more "special" than any other.

What do you believe?

"What do you believe?"

Well, I believe our puny little minds have come up with pretty neat and effective ways of describing and predicting what we observe. I think multiverse mathematics makes sense. If we get the correct results and predictions from this mathematics....and we do...then is that, "objective reality"? Does it mean infinite universes exist? No. Maybe it is something that cannot be known to us. It's not really a scientific idea, because it cannot be truly tested...i.e., ruled out. Maybe there are a finite number of unique universes, as you suggest. But that's not testable, either. So...I guess....who gives a shit? If the math works and is useful, then so be it.

You can believe that unique little demons reside inside every DNA base pair, and cause random mutations. I can just call them random. Maybe there are little demons? Does it really matter if one believes there are, or not?

I had a follow up discussion with my really smart co worker and he confirmed what you are saying about infinity and that the math says what you say but here is my problem. Look up down right and left. There is no end in any direction you look. Infinite. Maybe it’s infinite dark matter with only a google of unique universes?

Thanks for discussing.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Sorry, not possible, with infinite universes. Take any state of any universe, and , in infinite multiverse theory, that state has occured and will occur an infinite number of times.

Maybe more like a google of universes then. I just don’t see it. I see a flaw in that thinking and since it’s just a theory we can agree to disagree.

There is no infinite dark matter because multiverses exist. And visa versa

What's the flaw? You are the one who has more explaining to do. For instance, you have to argue why there are a google of universes, but not "a google and one" universes.

Are you familiar with the pigeonhole principle? Basically, if you have 10 pigeons amd 9 pigeonholes, you can conclude that at least one pigeonhole exists that contains at least two pigeons.

Now, a finite universe only has a finite number of possible states. These states are your "pigeonholes". And in an infinite multiverse, you have an infinite number of pigeons. So, we know at least one pigeonhole (possible state) has at least two pigeons (duplicate universes).

From here it is easy to argue all the pigeonholes contain infinite numbers of pigeons, as you can argue that no one state is any more "special" than any other.

What do you believe?

"What do you believe?"

Well, I believe our puny little minds have come up with pretty neat and effective ways of describing and predicting what we observe. I think multiverse mathematics makes sense. If we get the correct results and predictions from this mathematics....and we do...then is that, "objective reality"? Does it mean infinite universes exist? No. Maybe it is something that cannot be known to us. It's not really a scientific idea, because it cannot be truly tested...i.e., ruled out. Maybe there are a finite number of unique universes, as you suggest. But that's not testable, either. So...I guess....who gives a shit? If the math works and is useful, then so be it.

You can believe that unique little demons reside inside every DNA base pair, and cause random mutations. I can just call them random. Maybe there are little demons? Does it really matter if one believes there are, or not?

I had a follow up discussion with my really smart co worker and he confirmed what you are saying about infinity and that the math says what you say but here is my problem. Look up down right and left. There is no end in any direction you look. Infinite. Maybe it’s infinite dark matter with only a google of unique universes?

Thanks for discussing.

Maybe!

 

[harmonica]

If one can believe that evil exists in the world, then one should certainly accept that there is also goodness.and love.

what evil...explain evil