If Jesus couldn't keep HIMSELF out of trouble...

[Divine Wind]

God save me from illiterate twits who hear half-baked rumors and legends and think that finding a short blurb on a website for little kids constitutes "evidence".

Awesome. I'm sure you'll understand why I'll stop having discussions with someone who believes insults and name-calling constitutes a civil discussion. Have a really nice day, Cecilie.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God save me from illiterate twits who hear half-baked rumors and legends and think that finding a short blurb on a website for little kids constitutes "evidence".

Awesome. I'm sure you'll understand why I'll stop having discussions with someone who believes insults and name-calling constitutes a civil discussion. Have a really nice day, Cecilie.

Of course I understand. You presented a blurb for elementary-school children as your intellectual source, got presented with a heap of historical fact that you couldn't dispute, and ran to "Wah, she talked mean to me! I'm going to flounce off in high dudgeon before anyone can expect me to respond and show that I don't know anything about the subject!"

If you want respect, earn it. Existing and breathing in and out does not constitute earning it; neither does presenting children's sites as sources, or expecting message boards full of adults to be like kindergarten playgrounds.

Begone, juvenile. Come back when you have some stones.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, one cannot "just as easily blame religious oppression", especially since any religious oppression so far exists only in your head. The murderer chose to use the Bible to justify what he wanted to do anyway. He could just as easily have chosen the Torah (which I believe contains Leviticus as well), or the Qu'ran (which isn't all that friendly to homosexuals, either), or any of a dozen cultural groups in this country that teach that "real men don't have no truck with that limp-wristed faggoty shit". But until you can prove, categorically, that he was ever "religiously oppressed" at all, let alone that Christianity or the Bible teaches that it's okay to go out and kill people who offend you with impunity, you can't blame the Bible, or Christians, or anyone but the killer himself.

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

The Bible teaches you that you are weak and flawed. It also teaches you that only thru the grace of the Lord, can you overcome these. "He" wants you to join Him on His level (palaces in heaven). That is the Book narrowed down to a couple of sentences. The choices you make determine His judgement.

The bible teaches that you are flawed at your very being. Buddhism teaches that we have Buddha nature. That's one reason I'm a Buddhist.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If we're to accept his existence at all. Good point.

David Hume:

If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

Who is David Hume? Why do people hear one thing that they agree with, an opinion, because they are angry with the Lord (maybe because their life isn't turning out how "they" envisioned), want to disregard the dozens of people that wrote similar things about interacting with the Lord. What has David Hume done? Did he split a sea? Did he feed an entire population fleeing oppression (honest to goodness oppression)? Did he appear as a pillar of fire? Sorry Sky, this is just sad.

David Hume is a philosopher. He's a man, not a god.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, one cannot "just as easily blame religious oppression", especially since any religious oppression so far exists only in your head. The murderer chose to use the Bible to justify what he wanted to do anyway. He could just as easily have chosen the Torah (which I believe contains Leviticus as well), or the Qu'ran (which isn't all that friendly to homosexuals, either), or any of a dozen cultural groups in this country that teach that "real men don't have no truck with that limp-wristed faggoty shit". But until you can prove, categorically, that he was ever "religiously oppressed" at all, let alone that Christianity or the Bible teaches that it's okay to go out and kill people who offend you with impunity, you can't blame the Bible, or Christians, or anyone but the killer himself.

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

I'm fascinated by your belief that "If you're born that way, that makes it good and right". Does this mean that sociopaths like Ted Bundy shouldn't be told that this is wrong? People who are born with birth defects shouldn't try to have them repaired? Are all people perfect as they come out of the womb, no matter what? Or is it only homosexuals?

As it happens, though, the Bible doesn't teach that "your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong". It teaches that acting on certain urges is wrong, which is true. There are many urges that human beings have which are wrong to act on. You're just being pissy and hypersensitive because of the current perceived "holiness" that everyone is supposed to attach to homosexuality.

And sorry, but just because that happens to be what he latched onto STILL doesn't make the Bible responsible for what he did. The responsibility still, and always, rests with him, irregardless of what he chooses to try to justify it.

First of all, you are trying to compare sociopaths, people with birth defects and homosexuals.

Homosexuals are no more likely to have birth defects, nor be sociopaths than heterosexuals. Homosexuality is normal for homosexuals.

The bible teaches that gay people are wrong at our very essence, our being. I reject that. Buddhism teaches that we are essentially pure, and have Buddha nature. Had this man been counseled that it was ok to be gay, he may not have committed murder. He justified his violence based on the bible, wrong that gay people should be executed for being true to ourselves.

I don't understand how any self-respecting gay or lesbian person would worship a rejecting, punishing god.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

I've had many, all of which you missed.

(And atheism isn't even necessary in a communist nation to begin with. There's no corrleation.)

Beeep!!! Sorry, wrong answer.

Modern twentieth-century Communism is based on the theories of Karl Marx. Marx considered atheism as a key part of communism, and is famous for saying, "Religion ... is the opium of the masses." Marx was himself an atheist, of course, and he also wrote, "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Vladimir Lenin wrote: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

In 1955, Chinese communist leader Chou En-lai declared, "We Communists are atheists".

If you can't believe the Communists themselves, who CAN you believe? Well, how about someone who lived and suffered under Communism?

"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened. Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

It's not an accident that every society that has ever started out to be Communist either abandoned it early, or ended up persecuting religion.

Pffft. What do they know? Wonky. Has. Spoken.

Glad you're finally figuring this out, Davey.

Of course, the resident **** thinks she can pull out random quotes to prove that atheism is necessary in a communist society, but again she gets reamed by facts. The Marx/Engels manifesto says that religion disappears of its own accord under communism, not that it has to be outlawed by fiat.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yanno.........you people who cite Leviticus as justification for hating gays, well......I've got 1 question for you......

Why are you using a manual that was written SPECIFICALLY for those of the Jewish faith who were the priests?

Are you guys Jewish priests? If not, then quit cherry picking.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yanno.........you people who cite Leviticus as justification for hating gays, well......I've got 1 question for you......

Why are you using a manual that was written SPECIFICALLY for those of the Jewish faith who were the priests?

Are you guys Jewish priests? If not, then quit cherry picking.

What gets me is the selective use of Leviticus. Why isn't there more outcry about eating shellfish?

 

[Divine Wind]

Yanno.........you people who cite Leviticus as justification for hating gays, well......I've got 1 question for you......

Why are you using a manual that was written SPECIFICALLY for those of the Jewish faith who were the priests?

Are you guys Jewish priests? If not, then quit cherry picking.

What gets me is the selective use of Leviticus. Why isn't there more outcry about eating shellfish?

Or keeping the Sabbath? How many of these same folks post on weekends? Don't eat Kosher?
Leviticus 11 NIV - Clean and Unclean Food The LORD said to - Bible Gateway

 

[daveman]

Beeep!!! Sorry, wrong answer.

Modern twentieth-century Communism is based on the theories of Karl Marx. Marx considered atheism as a key part of communism, and is famous for saying, "Religion ... is the opium of the masses." Marx was himself an atheist, of course, and he also wrote, "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Vladimir Lenin wrote: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

In 1955, Chinese communist leader Chou En-lai declared, "We Communists are atheists".

If you can't believe the Communists themselves, who CAN you believe? Well, how about someone who lived and suffered under Communism?

"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened. Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

It's not an accident that every society that has ever started out to be Communist either abandoned it early, or ended up persecuting religion.

Pffft. What do they know? Wonky. Has. Spoken.

Glad you're finally figuring this out, Davey.

Of course, the resident **** thinks she can pull out random quotes to prove that atheism is necessary in a communist society, but again she gets reamed by facts. The Marx/Engels manifesto says that religion disappears of its own accord under communism, not that it has to be outlawed by fiat.

Yeah, you just keep pretending you know more than Communism's founding fathers and people who lived under its oppression. You're more credible than they are. No, really.

 

[logical4u]

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

The Bible teaches you that you are weak and flawed. It also teaches you that only thru the grace of the Lord, can you overcome these. "He" wants you to join Him on His level (palaces in heaven). That is the Book narrowed down to a couple of sentences. The choices you make determine His judgement.

The bible teaches that you are flawed at your very being. Buddhism teaches that we have Buddha nature. That's one reason I'm a Buddhist.

I have never thought I was perfect and chose not to be (Buddhist). I always knew that I needed help to be a better person (and if ever I forget, the Lord sends little messages to remind me), and theBible shows me there is a Lord that can do that (Christian).

 

[logical4u]

If we're to accept his existence at all. Good point.

David Hume:

If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

Who is David Hume? Why do people hear one thing that they agree with, an opinion, because they are angry with the Lord (maybe because their life isn't turning out how "they" envisioned), want to disregard the dozens of people that wrote similar things about interacting with the Lord. What has David Hume done? Did he split a sea? Did he feed an entire population fleeing oppression (honest to goodness oppression)? Did he appear as a pillar of fire? Sorry Sky, this is just sad.

David Hume is a philosopher. He's a man, not a god.

That was my point!

 

[Sky Dancer]

Who is David Hume? Why do people hear one thing that they agree with, an opinion, because they are angry with the Lord (maybe because their life isn't turning out how "they" envisioned), want to disregard the dozens of people that wrote similar things about interacting with the Lord. What has David Hume done? Did he split a sea? Did he feed an entire population fleeing oppression (honest to goodness oppression)? Did he appear as a pillar of fire? Sorry Sky, this is just sad.

David Hume is a philosopher. He's a man, not a god.

That was my point!

God is a concept. He can't be God, because he has ordinary and negative emotions.

 

[logical4u]

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

I'm fascinated by your belief that "If you're born that way, that makes it good and right". Does this mean that sociopaths like Ted Bundy shouldn't be told that this is wrong? People who are born with birth defects shouldn't try to have them repaired? Are all people perfect as they come out of the womb, no matter what? Or is it only homosexuals?

As it happens, though, the Bible doesn't teach that "your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong". It teaches that acting on certain urges is wrong, which is true. There are many urges that human beings have which are wrong to act on. You're just being pissy and hypersensitive because of the current perceived "holiness" that everyone is supposed to attach to homosexuality.

And sorry, but just because that happens to be what he latched onto STILL doesn't make the Bible responsible for what he did. The responsibility still, and always, rests with him, irregardless of what he chooses to try to justify it.

First of all, you are trying to compare sociopaths, people with birth defects and homosexuals.

Homosexuals are no more likely to have birth defects, nor be sociopaths than heterosexuals. Homosexuality is normal for homosexuals.

The bible teaches that gay people are wrong at our very essence, our being. I reject that. Buddhism teaches that we are essentially pure, and have Buddha nature. Had this man been counseled that it was ok to be gay, he may not have committed murder. He justified his violence based on the bible, wrong that gay people should be executed for being true to ourselves.

I don't understand how any self-respecting gay or lesbian person would worship a rejecting, punishing god.

The Bible teaches that ALL of us have sinful (wrong) at our very essence. It teaches that we must struggle every day to chose the Lord's way over our physical desires (different people, different desires, still, sinful). Yeshua set the example. He was aware of all the pleasures and joys that were here on earth, yet He chose to serve His Father. How great must the reward in heaven be, if Yeshua, who could have been what ever He wanted here, chose to go "there".

In our society, every aspect of our life we are taught/lectured/encouraged to use discipline. If we have "flaws" (sinful behavior) in any other area of our lives, we are told to discipline ourselves and overcome our "challenges": alcohol, drugs, overeating, A.D.D, reading, arithmetic, stealing, violent behavior, gambling, even sexual addiction (only if you are heterosexual though). It is only homosexuality, that for some reason cannot be "disciplined". Why is that?

 

[logical4u]

Beeep!!! Sorry, wrong answer.

Modern twentieth-century Communism is based on the theories of Karl Marx. Marx considered atheism as a key part of communism, and is famous for saying, "Religion ... is the opium of the masses." Marx was himself an atheist, of course, and he also wrote, "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."

Vladimir Lenin wrote: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

In 1955, Chinese communist leader Chou En-lai declared, "We Communists are atheists".

If you can't believe the Communists themselves, who CAN you believe? Well, how about someone who lived and suffered under Communism?

"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened. Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

It's not an accident that every society that has ever started out to be Communist either abandoned it early, or ended up persecuting religion.

Pffft. What do they know? Wonky. Has. Spoken.

Glad you're finally figuring this out, Davey.

Of course, the resident **** thinks she can pull out random quotes to prove that atheism is necessary in a communist society, but again she gets reamed by facts. The Marx/Engels manifesto says that religion disappears of its own accord under communism, not that it has to be outlawed by fiat.

Read Tortured in Christ, and get back to me about communism.

 

[logical4u]

Yanno.........you people who cite Leviticus as justification for hating gays, well......I've got 1 question for you......

Why are you using a manual that was written SPECIFICALLY for those of the Jewish faith who were the priests?

Are you guys Jewish priests? If not, then quit cherry picking.

What gets me is the selective use of Leviticus. Why isn't there more outcry about eating shellfish?

That is explained in Acts.

 

[Intense]

David Hume is a philosopher. He's a man, not a god.

That was my point!

God is a concept. He can't be God, because he has ordinary and negative emotions.

Pretty sure of yourself. How exactly do you explain and justify your absolutes?

 

[daveman]

That was my point!

God is a concept. He can't be God, because he has ordinary and negative emotions.

Pretty sure of yourself. How exactly do you explain and justify your absolutes?

Don't question her. She'll think you're oppressing her.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

The Bible teaches you that you are weak and flawed. It also teaches you that only thru the grace of the Lord, can you overcome these. "He" wants you to join Him on His level (palaces in heaven). That is the Book narrowed down to a couple of sentences. The choices you make determine His judgement.

The bible teaches that you are flawed at your very being. Buddhism teaches that we have Buddha nature. That's one reason I'm a Buddhist.

I have even less use for feel-good, self-esteem-building religion than I do for feel-good, self-esteem-building therapy.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If the bible teaches you that your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong, you're oppressed.

He chose the bible, not the q'uran or the torah. Literalism is wrong whether its the torah, the bible or the q'uran being used.

I'm fascinated by your belief that "If you're born that way, that makes it good and right". Does this mean that sociopaths like Ted Bundy shouldn't be told that this is wrong? People who are born with birth defects shouldn't try to have them repaired? Are all people perfect as they come out of the womb, no matter what? Or is it only homosexuals?

As it happens, though, the Bible doesn't teach that "your very being, who you are as a person, is wrong". It teaches that acting on certain urges is wrong, which is true. There are many urges that human beings have which are wrong to act on. You're just being pissy and hypersensitive because of the current perceived "holiness" that everyone is supposed to attach to homosexuality.

And sorry, but just because that happens to be what he latched onto STILL doesn't make the Bible responsible for what he did. The responsibility still, and always, rests with him, irregardless of what he chooses to try to justify it.

First of all, you are trying to compare sociopaths, people with birth defects and homosexuals.

Homosexuals are no more likely to have birth defects, nor be sociopaths than heterosexuals. Homosexuality is normal for homosexuals.

The bible teaches that gay people are wrong at our very essence, our being. I reject that. Buddhism teaches that we are essentially pure, and have Buddha nature. Had this man been counseled that it was ok to be gay, he may not have committed murder. He justified his violence based on the bible, wrong that gay people should be executed for being true to ourselves.

I don't understand how any self-respecting gay or lesbian person would worship a rejecting, punishing god.

Spare me. You leftists flip-flop so fast, it's no wonder you talk like your heads are spinning.

"Homosexuality is normal for homosexuals." But on the other hand, "There's no such thing as normal" when THAT suits your argument.

"However you're born is right", as long as you're talking about homosexuality. On the other hand, pointing out that many people are born with conditions that you DON'T approve of is unfairly comparing homosexuals to bad things. Of course, you never explain WHY it's unfair, let alone prove that anyone is "born" homosexual.

Who said homosexuals were more likely to have birth defects? I implied that homosexuality WAS a birth defect. Likewise, I didn't say that homosexuals were more likely to be sociopaths. I implied that both homosexuality and sociopathy are inborn mental illnesses. Feel free to prove that I'm wrong.

The Bible does NOT teach that homosexuals are "wrong at our very essence, our being". It teaches that many impulses that human beings might have are wrong TO ACT ON, and that's one of them. YOU decided that that impulse was "your very essence, your very being". That's YOUR lookout, not mine, and not the Bible's. Likewise, sociopaths believe that THOSE impulses are "their very essence, their very being". And who the **** are YOU to tell them that YOUR impulses are correct and normal, and theirs aren't? On what basis? Who gave YOU the power to decide an abitrary, objective standard for everyone else?

Of COURSE you reject any standard that suggests that you're not ******* perfect and wonderful and everyone else should accept you and laud you and kiss your ass. Because God forbid (you should excuse the expression) that anyone suggest that you're really just an arrogant, self-satisfied prig who isn't worth a whole hell of a ******* lot if value isn't assessed merely on the basis of breathing in and out.

Really, Sky, while you're sitting here telling us all about how you chose your religion based not on it's correctness weighed against observable facts, but based on how much it tells you you're wonderful and your shit doesn't stink, could you share with us what you might ever possibly have done or accomplished or added to the world OTHER than your overpowering sense of superiority and entitlement? Do you have anything to tell you you're splendiferous OTHER than your determination to believe it?