If Guns Kill People...

[Rustic]

He had a criminal record?

Anyone can become a killer at any time in their lives. That is why background checks and other safeguards are useless. That is also why the left wants a complete ban. The left is not fit for freedom. The left needs to get the **** out of America and go live less free somewhere the **** out of here.

Should we stop Iran from getting nukes?

Iran and kicked our ass, Then we gave them billions of dollars

 

[Rustic]

Nothing wrong with people having guns, most people are not against people having guns, the want to take away all your guns ploy, is just scare tactic .nothing we do will keep people from killing other people. the majority of people wanting new laws or rules are about making it harder to kill mass numbers of people, and trying to reduce the number of unstable people having guns. We could be looking to see if there is any sensible way to make this happen.

Well don’t go after law-abiding people with frivolous gun laws then... lol

 

[Rustic]

Snowflakes would rather have a mass killing weapon than save lives.

We could save LOTS of lives if everyone was locked up in prison. No car accidents or murders or gun violence. Let's take away all freedom for the sake of saving what amounts to 0.0000002% of the population.

Don't be such a drama queen. We should not legally arm mass killers.

What about black on black crime in Chicago, the extreme gun control there Only helps violent crime to expedite.

 

[Rustic]

You are claiming he broke laws.

Actually you are WRONG.

YOU claimed he is a 'law-abiding citizen'. I said you don't know that and can not prove that.

So far you have proved me right. Thanks for that!

Let me know when you are ready to debate like an adult.

Shooter Behind Las Vegas Massacre Had No Criminal Record

Shit happens, No frivolous laws would’ve stopped his behavior. That’s why on the ground can’t scheme of things the shootings are a non-issue. Black on black crime in gun-control utopias like Chicago are a much bigger problem.

 

[Rustic]

They are law abiding till they break the law, not caught.
I've seen no evidence of laws broken before he started shooting.

Wow, it took a long time for you to finally admit my point.
You have not SEEN any evidence to suggest he had broken any laws...but you don't know.
It is your OPINION that he was a law-abiding citizen' until he committed the shooting.

Based on numerous reports yes. I didn't know him. He could legally buy all those guns.

Millions of people can buy firearms just like he did, millions and millions of people don’t kill people. You just don’t understand the issue.

 

[Rustic]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

Only in urban areas were gun control is high and progressives live and control... jack weed

 

[Rustic]

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

They will be used much less yes. That is what has happened with strong gun control.

Um no.

The Facts That Neither Side Wants To Admit About Gun Control

Gun control is designed to stop people from killing each other, at least that’s what we are always told. Let’s take a look at the data:

United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.

Plain and simple. Gun control has no significant impact on murder rates. Removing firearms does not typically create massive lawlessness. It is a moot point

The research is clear: gun control saves lives


Last year, researchers from around the country reviewed more than 130 studies from 10 countries on gun control for Epidemiologic Reviews. This is, for now, the most current, extensive review of the research on the effects of gun control. The findings were clear: “The simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.”


Based on the other research, this actually isn’t a very surprising finding. Regularly updated reviews of the evidence compiled by the Harvard School of Public Health’s Injury Control Research Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.

 

[Rustic]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

 

[Rustic]

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

So then you explain the stats in the link I gave you that shows gun laws have no effect on murder rates

We are seeing now that violent crime is increasing with concealed carry. Except in New York which has very limited carry... violent crime is down there.

Wrong, it’s none of your business if someone conceal carries

 

[Rustic]

LOL, just out of curiosity when does your spaceship arrive on Earth?

"Either you are stark raving mad, or I am!" -- John Adams, HBO John Adams

So you haven't noticed we have a much higher homicide rate than countries with strong gun control?

LOL, nice attempt at a dodge away from your assertion that criminals only arm themselves with guns because law abiding citizens do, what happened? common sense and reason finally kick in and you realized how idiotic you sounded?

What I have noticed is that we have a different culture, institutions, system of government, population and population distribution and traditions than other countries.
.... and we had founders that were wise enough to recognize that the right of self defense is both inherent and worthless without the ability to acquire the means to exercise it.

If you're afraid of gun owners perhaps you should try out one of those other countries with "strong gun control", like for example MEXICO , see how it suits ya and refrain from attempting to squander the liberty of your fellow citizens and their progeny.

"The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." -- John Philpot Curan

The research is clear: gun control saves lives

Tell that to all the dead Soviet citizens that the Bolsheviks wacked right after disarming them... or the 762 people killed in "Gun Control Central" Chicago by guns last year.

Freedom isn't free, if you want the freedom to exercise your right to self defense then it comes with consequences, it don't want that freedom then fine, check yourself into a nice, safe gilded cage and stop trying to dilute the individual liberty of everybody that does.

"All might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they should.." -- Samuel Adams

Chicago doesn't have a wall. Gun control is limited when just a city. Things have gotten worse since getting concealed carry.

Chicago is a utopia for gun control and black on black violent crime because of the gun control... I thought you said walls did not work… Your hypocrisy is very evident

 

[Rustic]

In 1950 it was 4.6.

I use 1950 because that was the decade before the UK started passing all it's gun laws and as we see the murder rate in the UK has not dropped below what it was before all their gun laws were passed.

And if you bothered to really look you'd see the murder rate in European countries rose right onto the 90's just like ours did.

So comparing the UK's murder rate pre and post gun laws we see that those gun laws did not reduce the murder rates

Comparing our murder rates for the same 60 years we see that while the rate did climb as it did almost everywhere we have seen a steep decline in the past 30 years and are on ace to see the lowest murder rate in the past 120 years all while having more guns.

So when you say guns raise the murder rate you are obviously wrong

Oh, wow, so, not only was it 4.6 in the 1960s, it was 4.6 in the 1950s too, and now it's 5.3. So, how's that claim that murders are at a 120 year low going for you?

You're telling ME that if I bothered looking up the facts? Are you serious?

I'm not disputing that the murder rates in European countries rose in the 1990s. What I'm saying is that the murder rate of the US has ALWAYS BEEN MUCH, MUCH HIGHER than that of other first world countries.

Do you agree or disagree with this?


You say I'm wrong that guns raise the murder rate? Why's that? The US has had guns since forever. And it's had a higher murder rate since, who knows? forever?

There are other factors which can raise and lower murder rates. You seem to be trying to make some argument that if the murder rate rises because of other reasons, therefore guns don't have an impact.

Which is clearly wrong as the US with lots of guns having a 4 times higher murder rate all through history seems to show no matter how much you try and present some cherry picked facts you didn't even bother to look up.

In 2016 it was 4.9 not 5.3

And I don't know if the murder rate was 4 times higher in "all of history" do you want to back that claim up?

If the murder rate is related to the number of guns as you say it is then tell me why is our murder dropping when we have more guns and more people carrying concealed weapons than ever before?

So, are you now saying the 4.9 is LOWER than 4.6?

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2016

I got 2015 at 4.9, 2016 at 5.3

2016 Crime Statistics Released

"There were an estimated 17,250 murders in the U.S. last year, an 8.6 percent increase from 2015."

What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016

"
What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016"

Table 2

FBI says 5.3 too.

Me thinks this is ANOTHER CASE of you making shit up.

2015 it was 4.9 1950 it was 4.8 as I said virtually the same

I didn't use numbers from 2016 because i didn't have them at the time

But no matter we still have had a 30 year decline despite having more guns.
even with the slight increase in 2016 the overall trend is downward

How is what you're doing different from people using one year's harsh winter as proof that global warming is a farce?

Oh, right, so you told me that you knew 2016, then said I was wrong for saying it was 5.3. Great.

There was a rise in murders and a decline in murders.

Now, your argument seems to be that other countries saw a rise and the US saw a rise too. Well, like I said, other factors might increase or decrease the murder rates. I believe that entertainment in the last 20 years or so has decreased murder because people have more things to do. And increase in murders was probably inevitable due to a modern society. However in the UK the murder rate rise wasn't that big. The UK murder rate has remained more or less steady, with a dip in the 1950s when there was a lot of employment. Maybe other factors took place too.

But you see the Canadian and the US chart, Canada's rate is consistently THREE TIMES lower than the US rate. Why? The number of guns is a certainty. There are 25 guns per 100 people in Canada, compared to 101 or higher.

So, 4 times the guns, three times the murders. Hmmm....

There's a downward trend in many first world countries. And yet you seem to be trying to say that a downward trend means the US doesn't have 3 or 4 times the murder rate of other First World countries, when it clearly does.

Firearms have nothing to do with it, firearms cannot control people

 

[Rustic]

Best way to stop gun violence is to allow everyone to have a gun. Even a crazy person wouldn't try to pull something then.

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

The chances are that if guns are illegal, and hard to get hold of, then criminals will be much more careful about their guns. The latter part is important. Right now there is such a massive supply of guns, criminals don't need to worry about losing a gun.

You really believe that? I feel sorry for you… Back to your safe space snowflake

 

[PredFan]

Crazy people with guns kill people.

Crazy people must get back ground checked and keeped away from guns.

99.9% of crazy people with guns don't kill people.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Crazy people with guns kill people.

Crazy people must get back ground checked and keeped away from guns.

99.9% of crazy people with guns don't kill people.

it's more like 99.9995%

 

[frigidweirdo]

Oh, wow, so, not only was it 4.6 in the 1960s, it was 4.6 in the 1950s too, and now it's 5.3. So, how's that claim that murders are at a 120 year low going for you?

You're telling ME that if I bothered looking up the facts? Are you serious?

I'm not disputing that the murder rates in European countries rose in the 1990s. What I'm saying is that the murder rate of the US has ALWAYS BEEN MUCH, MUCH HIGHER than that of other first world countries.

Do you agree or disagree with this?


You say I'm wrong that guns raise the murder rate? Why's that? The US has had guns since forever. And it's had a higher murder rate since, who knows? forever?

There are other factors which can raise and lower murder rates. You seem to be trying to make some argument that if the murder rate rises because of other reasons, therefore guns don't have an impact.

Which is clearly wrong as the US with lots of guns having a 4 times higher murder rate all through history seems to show no matter how much you try and present some cherry picked facts you didn't even bother to look up.

In 2016 it was 4.9 not 5.3

And I don't know if the murder rate was 4 times higher in "all of history" do you want to back that claim up?

If the murder rate is related to the number of guns as you say it is then tell me why is our murder dropping when we have more guns and more people carrying concealed weapons than ever before?

So, are you now saying the 4.9 is LOWER than 4.6?

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2016

I got 2015 at 4.9, 2016 at 5.3

2016 Crime Statistics Released

"There were an estimated 17,250 murders in the U.S. last year, an 8.6 percent increase from 2015."

What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016

"
What Rising Murder Rates in US Cities Mean for 2016"

Table 2

FBI says 5.3 too.

Me thinks this is ANOTHER CASE of you making shit up.

2015 it was 4.9 1950 it was 4.8 as I said virtually the same

I didn't use numbers from 2016 because i didn't have them at the time

But no matter we still have had a 30 year decline despite having more guns.
even with the slight increase in 2016 the overall trend is downward

How is what you're doing different from people using one year's harsh winter as proof that global warming is a farce?

Oh, right, so you told me that you knew 2016, then said I was wrong for saying it was 5.3. Great.

There was a rise in murders and a decline in murders.

Now, your argument seems to be that other countries saw a rise and the US saw a rise too. Well, like I said, other factors might increase or decrease the murder rates. I believe that entertainment in the last 20 years or so has decreased murder because people have more things to do. And increase in murders was probably inevitable due to a modern society. However in the UK the murder rate rise wasn't that big. The UK murder rate has remained more or less steady, with a dip in the 1950s when there was a lot of employment. Maybe other factors took place too.

But you see the Canadian and the US chart, Canada's rate is consistently THREE TIMES lower than the US rate. Why? The number of guns is a certainty. There are 25 guns per 100 people in Canada, compared to 101 or higher.

So, 4 times the guns, three times the murders. Hmmm....

There's a downward trend in many first world countries. And yet you seem to be trying to say that a downward trend means the US doesn't have 3 or 4 times the murder rate of other First World countries, when it clearly does.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
View attachment 153071

Fine, if you want to put everything into a little compartment, and the fight each little bit, you'll never figure out the truth. But then some people use their intelligence to avoid the truth, and promote their agendas.

A person with a gun is more powerful than a person without a gun. This does not mean that the person is actually going to use their gun to kill people. The same could be said about any weapon.

However when guns are available, people are far more likely to turn to guns as weapons of murder. They're also more likely to be successful in their attempts.

Within each group of statistics you have to take into account certain factors which might exist, such as large cities which are more likely to see a higher percentage of murders. The issue here would be one of why someone has a gun. Gun ownership for use in hunting and the like are probably less likely to be used in murders as a person would be more likely to think about their profession in the event of using their firearm to kill. Also there is a case for looking at the people who might actually decide to kill. Mostly males, potentially people with aggression problems.

There are quite a lot of factors in place.

The issue here is, what would the US be like if it didn't have guns? Would we be able to make such a comparison?

We can only take guesses there.

But another factor to consider is the ease with which a person may obtain a gun. Such things aren't really quantifiable and easy to compare between countries.They don't make for good statistics. Numbers of guns in a country are easy. But they don't really tell you much at all.

For example Finland.

Comparing the US to Finland isn't so difficult.

Finland has a population of 5.5 million. The US 330 million.
Helsinki is the largest city with 629,000 people. New York has 8.5 million people. The US has 28 cities larger than Helsinki. But the US has cities smaller with much larger amounts of murders. Greater Helsinki has a population of 1.4 million. The New York metropolitan area is 23 million people, with 42 metropolitan areas larger than Helsinki's metropolitan area.

In matters of guns, in the US there are places where guns are easier to buy and more difficult to buy, but also there are plenty of areas where guns are stolen etc. There are 3 to 4 times more guns per capita in the US than in Finland.

In Finland handguns make up about 250,000 of the 1.5 million, so 1/6th of the number of guns. Or 6.3% of households.
In the US handguns make up about 110 million of the 300 million, or about 1/3rd of the number of guns. Or 21.9% of households.

Finland has a much lower level of murder and of gun murders. Their rate is 12.5% of murders are with guns, compared to 69% in the US.

There are other things, like education, like solving the problems of society so they don't get as bad as the US has got. These things are also important and we've spoken about them before.

But what seems to be the case is that the US has these social problems and guns exacerbate these problems. The UK has much worse social problems than Finland, and doesn't have the guns that exacerbate these problems.

The problems here are that this is so complex, a simple analysis doesn't help.

 

[frigidweirdo]

We have the most guns in the world. Many places with few guns have much lower crime rates than us. When citizens arm up so do criminals. That is why our violent crime rate is increasing.

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

The chances are that if guns are illegal, and hard to get hold of, then criminals will be much more careful about their guns. The latter part is important. Right now there is such a massive supply of guns, criminals don't need to worry about losing a gun.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

Do you think I'm going to click on this?

 

[LeftofLeft]

Crazy people with guns kill people.

Crazy people must get back ground checked and keeped away from guns.

A good case for profiling.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Law abiding citizens own guns to protect their property and life. Criminals obtain guns to kill and murder. There is a difference.

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

The chances are that if guns are illegal, and hard to get hold of, then criminals will be much more careful about their guns. The latter part is important. Right now there is such a massive supply of guns, criminals don't need to worry about losing a gun.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

Do you think I'm going to click on this?

Why not it's a report done at HArvard University

But here

Do you want me to paste in all 46 pages?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Crazy people with guns kill people.

Crazy people must get back ground checked and keeped away from guns.

/—-/ I define crazy as anyone who is liberal. No guns for Hillary voters.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Law abiding until not. Criminals arm up because everyone else does. This leads to more death.

So if law abiding people are stripped of their guns criminals won't use them?

Really?

The chances are that if guns are illegal, and hard to get hold of, then criminals will be much more careful about their guns. The latter part is important. Right now there is such a massive supply of guns, criminals don't need to worry about losing a gun.

www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

Do you think I'm going to click on this?

Why not it's a report done at HArvard University

But here

View attachment 153078

Do you want me to paste in all 46 pages?

Because I'm here to debate with the people who I'm debating with, rather than people who aren't here.

Posting sources without any argument is pointless.