If gun control isn't the answer, what is?

[Dreamy]

That also begs the question of the definition of mental illness. You or I could create a list of totally unrelated "symptoms," call that a mental illness, and SOMEBODY would fit that criteria.

I am sure. I don't pretend my list is the end all or that it even comes closed to discussing all that needs exploring. I just posted the general direction I think we as people and the professionals should be looking toward in earnest.

And, I don't disagree with you in principle. As always, the devil is in the details, isn't it?

It sure is and there is where the conflict often arises. Look at how we all connected when we were attacked on 09-11-01 but not long after when controversial secuirty measures started happening we parted ways and returned to bickering and disagreeing. People and societies are complex but I do believe we all want to stop these killings if possible.

 

[Clementine]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

Some countries have guns, but less crime. Back in the old days, most families had guns and lots of kids had bb guns and even got real rifles and went hunting with their fathers.

Guns really aren't the problem. Unfortunately, they cannot be controlled in any way that would stop the criminal and the insane. There are so many weapons out there, many ill gotten, and many gang members and other degenerates purchase them with the sole intention of using them- on people. We can make laws and take assault weapons out of the hands of the law abiding, but don't expect that to stop the drive-by shootings or even the next massacre.

There is talk of locating the guns now and evaluating the people who have them. Again, that will mean taking a hard look at the people who legally purchased their guns. Perhaps there are some who aren't responsible and aren't smart enough to insure that the guns remain out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. What will the process be in finding out who deserves to have them or not? Will some government bureaucrat be given a list of bullshit questions to ask and confiscate weapons if they don't like the answers or will we go through the expense of forcing all citizens who legally purchase arms to undergo a professional screening by a psychiatrist?

All I know is that when you look at the past shootings, you usually see a youth who is often expelled from school. Sometimes a troubled youth gets in minor trouble, but with the zero tolerance, the kid is treated like some kind of leper. Ever wonder what kind of resentment that causes in an under-developed mind?

How many kids have suppressed anger for years because they didn't dare get in trouble for hitting that bully or even getting into an old fashioned fist fight with another kid over some stupid thing? Most guys I know recall getting in a fight sometime during their younger years. It's not a good thing, but it's NORMAL. Used to be parents were called and my favorite method of dealing with it was making the guys hug each other and sing a song. Often, the guys ended up being good friends. Now it's treated as a major ordeal and can get a kid in serious trouble.

Bullies still get away with being bullies, especially if they are a valuable player on the football team. Their poor victims don't have much of a voice and would likely get in trouble if they fought back. That happened at my school.

Many children go through school and are so suffocated with unbending rules and zero tolerance that they hold in their emotions. When they do get caught doing something against those rules, the school labels them as a terrorist and expels thems. I know one kid who forgot his hunting rifle in his truck. He had gone hunting over the weekend, then was running late with his morning chores. He rushed off the school with the rifle in the back seat of his pick up. Once at school, he saw it and threw a jacket over it, then moved his truck across the street to a parking lot of a factory. He didn't want to break the rules. He mentioned to a friend of his that he planned to run home over his lunch hour. His friend mentioned it to another, and so on. A very liberal teacher got wind of it and actually walked across the street and looked in the window. She saw part of the rifle sticking out and sounded the alarms. The kid was a good kid. Had good grades and earned some scholarships. He was looking forward to going to college after he graduated a few months later. Well, after one little mistake that he tried hard to reconcile after he realized it and suddenly his bright future turned to shit. He was expelled and I don't believe was allowed to graduate. The scholarships were pulled. It was a case of pure bullshit and the school reacting to an every day, innocent move, but the rules forced them to treat it like the crime of the century.

It's not fair. The mentality of our schools and the politically correct environment seek to label people based on superficial things. Once labeled, your life may as well be over.

Perhaps if they weren't so quick to judge everyone and actually deal with each incident on an individual basis, they'd realize that most aren't dangerous. Maybe they actually find the few troubled teens who do pose a problem if they'd actually pay attention, use common sense and stop playing their games.

Schools do not protect children from bullying. Schools are quick to expel students for really stupid, harmless things while turning a blind eye to real threats. The schools likely helped create some of the past shootings by giving the kid the last push off the edge.

We need to get back to common sense and not some pretend plan for making our schools safer.

I bet more than 20 children are killed in Chicago each month with all the drive-by shootings and other violence. And it's all by criminals who probably commit the crimes with stolen or illegally purchased guns. I don't expect any politician to address that.

We also need to look at why so many have such an ignorant and hostile mindset toward other people. Why are some so completely immune to the suffering of others?

We need to get to the root of the problem and that will take some time. Of course, first it will take some interest on the part of government and local officials to actually give a shit about solving it.

But, instead, we'll see the honest people obeying more laws and maybe even undergoing more scrutiny by having home visits from some government agent. Meanwhile, the criminals and the mentally disturbed will carry on, unaffected. And the violence will not stop.

 

[rdean]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

According to Huckabee, it's "God".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...uckabee-be-using-god-as-a-political-tool.html

 

[RandallFlagg]

Tell that to these people:

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, U.S. SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA
“Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.”

“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them; ‘Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,’ I would have done it.”

“The National Guard fulfills the militia mentioned in the Second amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves.”

JOSEPH BIDEN, VP and U.S. SENATOR FROM DELAWARE
“Banning guns is an idea whose time has come.”

CHARLES PASHAYAN, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA
“All of this has to be understood as part of a process leading ultimately to a treaty that will give an international body power over our domestic laws.”

WILLIAM CLAY, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM MISSOURI
“We need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns.”

JAN SCHAKOWSKY, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ILLINOIS
“I believe.....this is my final word......I believe that I'm supporting the Constitution of the United States which does not give the right for any individual to own a handgun....”

BOBBY RUSH, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ILLINOIS
“I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use."



The problem is you'll only limit access to law abiding citizens. The bad guy will have all the lethality he needs. That's the point.



I disagree. If history is any judge, such actions would embolden criminals resulting in more deaths and gun crimes.



Good luck with that.



Yes we can. Prepare to defend yourself and your family. Or not. Your choice.

Someone help me out here. I distinctly recall a female Senator several years ago getting into a little hot water for parading around with a concealed weapon. If I recall correctly, all charges were dropped because of her "status". I "believe" that it was Feinstein, but for the life of me, I don't recall.

One of my first assignments after Vietnam was to investigate the nearly wholesale disappearance of M16s from units at Fort Hood Texas back in the early 70s. Units would go to the field and would "lose" several weapons as a course of operations.

I investigated and finally determined that a Motorcycle club was following units to the field and, while young Privates slept, these guys, most Vietnam veterans, would sneak in and "relieve" them of their weapons and sell them wherever. I turned my findings over to CID and left.

Point being, bad guys will ALWAYS be heavily armed. Congressman and Senators and Presidents and diplomats will ALWAYS have heavily armed security details. That only leaves us, the law abiding citizens, to serve as pickings for the "bad guys" once Feinstein and Biden get their way.

Think about it.

I found the same problem at Ft. Benning in the early 80's.

No doubt. This has been a problem for some time. Young guys out in the field, tired, no sleep; the guys on guard duty fall asleep - shoot, I did back then...geez, nearly any idiot could walk into a bivouac area and take what they want. Obviously wouldn't happen in a combat zone, but training? you bet.

 

[tenthertoo]

Human nature isn't going to change anytime soon.

You hit the nail on the head - it's the culture we have evolved to. It took 50 years of relentless pounding-pounding-pounding to get us here and it'll take a lot longer to get us back on track. Shame on us all!

 

[The Rabbi]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

According to Huckabee, it's "God".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...uckabee-be-using-god-as-a-political-tool.html

How do you know it's not Gd?

 

[Stephanie]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

According to Huckabee, it's "God".

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...uckabee-be-using-god-as-a-political-tool.html

and that chaps your ass?
how small can you people get, a lot of people in this country believe in God in one way or another.

It is you and people like you who is destroying this country, mocking others for saying something you don't agree with is a sickness with you people

 

[Gadawg73]

You folks do not want gun control and tough gun laws. You talk a mean game but when it really comes down to fighting illegal weapons your milk is as weak as it comes.
If you really want to fight illegal gun possession then start in Atlanta.
Zone 3, Vine City all the way south to I-20, west to 285 and north to Paces and 285 and east to Northside Dr. Sweep that area and you will find tens of thousands of illegal weapons used in drive by shootings, gang murders, robberies and overall general thuggery.
It will never happen. More politically correct to take some legal guys hunting weapons, home protection and collection than to do what solves the problem.

 

[HomeInspect]

"The proof is the states with the highest hand gun ownership rates also have the highest murder and armed robbery rates."

show me proof of that stat. Fact is .. your rural states where the highest percentage of people own guns, have the lowest crime rates. Yeah, there are more guns in Chicago than in Upper Becklysville Wyoming.. but lets tal "per capita"

 

[MisterBeale]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeA_kHHLow]Rahm Emanuel: You never want a serious crisis to go to waste - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/268201-false-flag-conspiracy-or-ct-shooters-motive.html#post6515587

 

[Harry Dresden]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

Gun control will work in the long term. What will happen is the same thing that happened with cigarettes. The use has declined over the decades since we started placing warnings on them, society has placed burdens on smokers, the health risks have been highlighted and we've taxed the holy you-know-what out of them.

They are still available but much less front-and-center than they used to be.

It takes an incrediby long time to do this but in the end, it is worth every minute spent.

What you do is make the high volumes cartridges harder to get via mail order, place a surtax on them to make them cost prohibitive, and manufacturers sell less of them. So less are made. It is supply and demand.

Lets say that we have a bazillion of these clips out there. Over time, they wear out, get damaged, stolen, destroyed by various means such as fires, floods, etc... So the Bazillion becomes a bathousand over time. Meanwhile, the public becomes safer by increments since you're not able to log on and buy them.

You can replicate the model with things such as the AR15, AK47, etc.. and you're not diminishing the rights under the 2nd amendment at all.

Meanwhile, what you do is place armed guards in schools--men and women trained in aggressive deterence. At no point do you put guns in the hands of teachers or students. Thats batshit crazy.

Human behavior isn't going to change anytime soon but if you took everyone who can't swim and kept them away from water, you'd have fewer drowning deaths. If you stem the tide of guns, eventually, you'll have fewer on the streets.

It's not politics; it's logistics.

how about teaching those people how to swim?.....

 

[HomeInspect]

Here are the states with the most guns per capita... now I challenge Dick Tuck, or any of the other mindless to show me that they have the most crime.. in fact, they are some of the lowest.

stats are guns purchased per 100,000 people

1, Kentucky
Population:4,314,113
(Dec. 2008 – May 2010): 134,028

2, Utah
Population:2,784,572
30,315

3, Montana
Population:974,989
25,745

4, Wyoming
Population:544,270
22,827

5, Alaska
Population:698,473
22,273

6, West Virginia
Population:1,819,777
21,455

7, South Dakota
Population:812,383
19,062

 

[The Rabbi]

Of course those are legally purchased. Count illegal guns and it might be different.

 

[Oldguy]

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?

Some countries have guns, but less crime. Back in the old days, most families had guns and lots of kids had bb guns and even got real rifles and went hunting with their fathers.

Guns really aren't the problem. Unfortunately, they cannot be controlled in any way that would stop the criminal and the insane. There are so many weapons out there, many ill gotten, and many gang members and other degenerates purchase them with the sole intention of using them- on people. We can make laws and take assault weapons out of the hands of the law abiding, but don't expect that to stop the drive-by shootings or even the next massacre.

There is talk of locating the guns now and evaluating the people who have them. Again, that will mean taking a hard look at the people who legally purchased their guns. Perhaps there are some who aren't responsible and aren't smart enough to insure that the guns remain out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. What will the process be in finding out who deserves to have them or not? Will some government bureaucrat be given a list of bullshit questions to ask and confiscate weapons if they don't like the answers or will we go through the expense of forcing all citizens who legally purchase arms to undergo a professional screening by a psychiatrist?

All I know is that when you look at the past shootings, you usually see a youth who is often expelled from school. Sometimes a troubled youth gets in minor trouble, but with the zero tolerance, the kid is treated like some kind of leper. Ever wonder what kind of resentment that causes in an under-developed mind?

How many kids have suppressed anger for years because they didn't dare get in trouble for hitting that bully or even getting into an old fashioned fist fight with another kid over some stupid thing? Most guys I know recall getting in a fight sometime during their younger years. It's not a good thing, but it's NORMAL. Used to be parents were called and my favorite method of dealing with it was making the guys hug each other and sing a song. Often, the guys ended up being good friends. Now it's treated as a major ordeal and can get a kid in serious trouble.

Bullies still get away with being bullies, especially if they are a valuable player on the football team. Their poor victims don't have much of a voice and would likely get in trouble if they fought back. That happened at my school.

Many children go through school and are so suffocated with unbending rules and zero tolerance that they hold in their emotions. When they do get caught doing something against those rules, the school labels them as a terrorist and expels thems. I know one kid who forgot his hunting rifle in his truck. He had gone hunting over the weekend, then was running late with his morning chores. He rushed off the school with the rifle in the back seat of his pick up. Once at school, he saw it and threw a jacket over it, then moved his truck across the street to a parking lot of a factory. He didn't want to break the rules. He mentioned to a friend of his that he planned to run home over his lunch hour. His friend mentioned it to another, and so on. A very liberal teacher got wind of it and actually walked across the street and looked in the window. She saw part of the rifle sticking out and sounded the alarms. The kid was a good kid. Had good grades and earned some scholarships. He was looking forward to going to college after he graduated a few months later. Well, after one little mistake that he tried hard to reconcile after he realized it and suddenly his bright future turned to shit. He was expelled and I don't believe was allowed to graduate. The scholarships were pulled. It was a case of pure bullshit and the school reacting to an every day, innocent move, but the rules forced them to treat it like the crime of the century.

It's not fair. The mentality of our schools and the politically correct environment seek to label people based on superficial things. Once labeled, your life may as well be over.

Perhaps if they weren't so quick to judge everyone and actually deal with each incident on an individual basis, they'd realize that most aren't dangerous. Maybe they actually find the few troubled teens who do pose a problem if they'd actually pay attention, use common sense and stop playing their games.

Schools do not protect children from bullying. Schools are quick to expel students for really stupid, harmless things while turning a blind eye to real threats. The schools likely helped create some of the past shootings by giving the kid the last push off the edge.

We need to get back to common sense and not some pretend plan for making our schools safer.

I won't disagree with most of that. With the "zero tolerance" bullshit, our kids are treated like criminals beginning in kindergarten. It shouldn't come as any surprise that they grow up either with a profound hatred of authority or, conversely, become good little automatons who do what they're told, but lack initiative and self-confidence.

We also need to look at why so many have such an ignorant and hostile mindset toward other people. Why are some so completely immune to the suffering of others?

We see plenty of that right here on these boards. Out of job? "Tough shit," say too many on the right.

We need to get to the root of the problem and that will take some time. Of course, first it will take some interest on the part of government and local officials to actually give a shit about solving it.

It seems to me that the problem is far too deep for government or well meaning people to do anything about. We seem to be suffering from a spiritual malaise which is crippling us all.

But, instead, we'll see the honest people obeying more laws and maybe even undergoing more scrutiny by having home visits from some government agent. Meanwhile, the criminals and the mentally disturbed will carry on, unaffected. And the violence will not stop.

That's practically a given. Barring the complete banning of all firearms, which isn't going to happen, anything government does will just be a bandaid for appearance sake.

 

[Oldguy]

Someone help me out here. I distinctly recall a female Senator several years ago getting into a little hot water for parading around with a concealed weapon. If I recall correctly, all charges were dropped because of her "status". I "believe" that it was Feinstein, but for the life of me, I don't recall.

One of my first assignments after Vietnam was to investigate the nearly wholesale disappearance of M16s from units at Fort Hood Texas back in the early 70s. Units would go to the field and would "lose" several weapons as a course of operations.

I investigated and finally determined that a Motorcycle club was following units to the field and, while young Privates slept, these guys, most Vietnam veterans, would sneak in and "relieve" them of their weapons and sell them wherever. I turned my findings over to CID and left.

Point being, bad guys will ALWAYS be heavily armed. Congressman and Senators and Presidents and diplomats will ALWAYS have heavily armed security details. That only leaves us, the law abiding citizens, to serve as pickings for the "bad guys" once Feinstein and Biden get their way.

Think about it.

I found the same problem at Ft. Benning in the early 80's.

No doubt. This has been a problem for some time. Young guys out in the field, tired, no sleep; the guys on guard duty fall asleep - shoot, I did back then...geez, nearly any idiot could walk into a bivouac area and take what they want. Obviously wouldn't happen in a combat zone, but training? you bet.

During a several day FTX during my IOBC at Benning, the cadre woke us all up and gathered the whole group to the center of our night time position to guard the weapons. They'd been told someone was going around that night stealing weapons from troops in the field.

Of course....we had no live ammo!

 

[Oldguy]

Human nature isn't going to change anytime soon.

You hit the nail on the head - it's the culture we have evolved to. It took 50 years of relentless pounding-pounding-pounding to get us here and it'll take a lot longer to get us back on track. Shame on us all!

Fifty years? Lemme guess...you're blaming it on "liberal culture."

I hate to tell you this, but human nature hasn't changed since the Garden of Eden.

 

[Oldguy]

.

mocking others for saying something you don't agree with is a sickness with you people

Whoa! Ever looked back at YOUR posts?

 

[RandallFlagg]

I found the same problem at Ft. Benning in the early 80's.

No doubt. This has been a problem for some time. Young guys out in the field, tired, no sleep; the guys on guard duty fall asleep - shoot, I did back then...geez, nearly any idiot could walk into a bivouac area and take what they want. Obviously wouldn't happen in a combat zone, but training? you bet.

During a several day FTX during my IOBC at Benning, the cadre woke us all up and gathered the whole group to the center of our night time position to guard the weapons. They'd been told someone was going around that night stealing weapons from troops in the field.

Of course....we had no live ammo!

Thank God for small favors, right? Yeah, from about 1973-4 to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1986 or so, it was fairly common to lose weapons. I spoke with a CID investigator some years later and it was mainly Vietnam Vets who, after coming home, had hooked up with different MCs and made that a part of their routine. Shoot, they were good at it. One thing that they apparently ad in common, though, was that, as far as I know, no one was ever killed. Couple of young Privates were given concussions, but nothing too serious.

My office was called in initially to determine if there was a "national security threat" and once we determined that it wasn't, we turned it over to CID and they, eventually, brought in the FBI. There have been a few arrests, over the years, but not enough to account for the hundreds of weapons that were stolen.

 

[HomeInspect]

Of course those are legally purchased. Count illegal guns and it might be different.

It still proves that those states where responsible people per capita are purchasing the most guns have some of the lowest crime rates.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Preventing dumb and crazy people like YOU from owning a gun.

What is the answer?

Something, or nothing? If something, what?