If gun control isn't the answer, what is?

[Dreamy]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

 

[spectrumc01]

a Nanny form of government.

An interesting comment because that's EXACTLY what the gun control debate boils down to. It's just another "nanny state" issue at it's core.

Does the state have a roll to play in protecting us? If so, how much?

Ironic.

What it all boils down to...that exact point...

The extremely broad view of "State Protections", is that point.

Is that what it really "boils" down to? an extremely broad view?

 

[Oldguy]

It has a lot less to do with covering a flash and more to do with the efficient expulsion of gases, which keeps the muzzle from flipping during the shot. They're about accuracy, not some evil intent.

Not entirely. A flash suppressor does just that...it suppresses the flash by directing the fireball out to the side, rather than allowing it to "follow" the bullet. While it produces a larger "aura," it doesn't necessarily track the round back to its source.

I've geen shot at in the dark by weapons with and without a flash suppressor. Those with one produce an instantaneous flash which is gone in the blink of an eye, while those without produce a tear-drop shaped fireball (round, and growing, if it's coming right at you), which follows the bullet for a long way. It looks like a comet tail.

 

[spectrumc01]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

 

[eflatminor]

IT'S NOT ABOUT GUNS.

The discussion needs to go to where it belongs. Crazy people. Look at all the mass killings of the last decade or more and mental illness has been at the root of the majority of them. If we keep the discussion on guns, we all lose.

And as the size of magazines increases, so does the body count. Hell, you can now buy 100 round magazines on-line, for most assault style rifles, with no background check.

You can change magazines in mere seconds.

How about a fraction of a second?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLniuMpgM1I]WORLDS FASTEST MAG CHANGE - YouTube[/ame]

Further, since magazine are nothing more than sheet metal and a spring, you can also make one yourself...unless we outlaw springs of course.

 

[Oldguy]

I heard this guy had tried to purchase a gun himself recently but was denied the purchase for some reason. Does anyone know if it was due to his history? If that is indeed the case, then why is it that law enforcement are not notified so they can then follow up on the attempted purchase? Seems to me, if his residence was contacted, his mother being his guardian would have been aware something was going terribly wrong and possibly sought the help he needed at that time. Would this help with every case? No, but we live in an imperfect world in which we cannot divert all tragedy. No amount of laws can ever stop all tragedies from occurring. But possibly it could help.

I personally think that there needs to be much more research into mental health issues - not through pharmaceutical companies, but from medical researchers. Only when it can be more fully understood why it happens could we possibly stem some of societies ills.

As I understand it, right now that s conjecture - but could well be true. However, you make an excellent point in that if he did, in fact attempt to purchase a weapon and the background check showed his mental history, why weren't the local police notified.

Look, as in the case of many of these murders, we often ask ourselves, "what could we have done to prevent this from happening". I'm not sure there is ever an easy answer. Because of this horror, we sit back and scratch our heads and ask "why"?

One of my favorite songwriters, Harry Chapin, wrote a song entitled "The Sniper" many, many years ago about the man who climbed to the top of the clock tower at the University of Texas (Austin) and killed dozens of people. I invite you all to look up the lyrics (I won't bore you with posting them here - google is our friend) but you will notice STARK similarities between that man and this kid.

So, there really is nothing new here, between the 60s and now. Mental illness is still mental illness and, sorry to say, we are no better treating it now, than we were back then.

Really? You think responsible gun ownership is to much to ask of the people out there buying multiples of high power weapons. That's to much to ask you think?

Why would that be?

This woman was a gun "lover" evidentally and as figure she knew her son had issues and problems. You don't think these guns should have been in the best gun safe out there? That only she knew the combanation to. She had 300k a year income.

But you think that would have been out of line. Locking up her guns. Keeping ammo elsewhere. Trigger locks?

Hell, maybe taken the guns to a friends to keep till the son got a little better handle on life.

Nah to much to ask.

Responsible ownership is being able to buy them, keep ammo in house and mix in a disturbed young man and see what happens.

Didn't work out to well did it? But there is sure something could be done to keep shit like this from happening. Not 100%. But you can cut some tragadies out. And some is better than giving up.

But, how do you legislate responsibility?

 

[Stephanie]

I proposed the solution, none of the people who are anti-gun control would sign on.

Pass a federal law requiring all public accommodations private and government, to have at least one armed guard, more depending on the size of the place,

businesses would be required to fund this themselves, government buildings would be funded by a federal tax.

You want more security without more gun control? That is how you get it. You pay for it.

they dont want answers.

they want us to just get used to the "collateral" damage their worship brings this country

They want the magic of being safer without any impact on their so-called liberty,

or their wallets.

Can't be done.

We have tens of thousands of veterans, for starters, who need jobs or better jobs. Start training them to be armed guards, with federal funds, and start putting them to work.

a liberal utopia?

 

[Dreamy]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

I am more than ready and prepared to discuss the problems this country is seeing since the breakdown in mental health care. What happened Friday and on too many horrible tragic days before is without a doubt in my mind connected to the way we administer mental health care in this country.

In my opinion the focus should be on:

Speedy and timely mental health evaluation

Looking closely at what role prescription drug use plays sometimes in the lives of people.

Looking closely and in depth at what role medical insurance plays a role.

Not looking for the politically correct way to address mental illness but definitely the best way for both the patient and society.

Learning exactly what is the criteria for determining whether a person is potentially dangerous.

How many people are considered "strange" by their friends, families and schoolmates but are not diagnosed with any behavioral or mental illnes?

How many people are misdiagnosed?

How easy is it for a parent to get care for their child especially once he or she becomes an adult of 18?



I could go on and on. People need to start connecting with all people directly involved in the mental health world especially clinicians and ask them where the disconnect and failings are.

 

[Desperado]

Not sure how much of this is workable, but the writer does make a lot of good points that are worth considering.

Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial
Preventing juvenile mass murder in American schools is the job of police officers, school teachers, and concerned parents
Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial

 

[Oldguy]

Stay with me. No one is coming to take your gun, nor am I advocating that.

Tell that to these people:

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, U.S. SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA
“Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.”

“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them; ‘Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,’ I would have done it.”

“The National Guard fulfills the militia mentioned in the Second amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves.”

JOSEPH BIDEN, VP and U.S. SENATOR FROM DELAWARE
“Banning guns is an idea whose time has come.”

CHARLES PASHAYAN, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA
“All of this has to be understood as part of a process leading ultimately to a treaty that will give an international body power over our domestic laws.”

WILLIAM CLAY, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM MISSOURI
“We need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns.”

JAN SCHAKOWSKY, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ILLINOIS
“I believe.....this is my final word......I believe that I'm supporting the Constitution of the United States which does not give the right for any individual to own a handgun....”

BOBBY RUSH, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ILLINOIS
“I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use."



The problem is you'll only limit access to law abiding citizens. The bad guy will have all the lethality he needs. That's the point.



I disagree. If history is any judge, such actions would embolden criminals resulting in more deaths and gun crimes.



Good luck with that.

But perhaps we can do something short of that.

Yes we can. Prepare to defend yourself and your family. Or not. Your choice.

Someone help me out here. I distinctly recall a female Senator several years ago getting into a little hot water for parading around with a concealed weapon. If I recall correctly, all charges were dropped because of her "status". I "believe" that it was Feinstein, but for the life of me, I don't recall.

One of my first assignments after Vietnam was to investigate the nearly wholesale disappearance of M16s from units at Fort Hood Texas back in the early 70s. Units would go to the field and would "lose" several weapons as a course of operations.

I investigated and finally determined that a Motorcycle club was following units to the field and, while young Privates slept, these guys, most Vietnam veterans, would sneak in and "relieve" them of their weapons and sell them wherever. I turned my findings over to CID and left.

Point being, bad guys will ALWAYS be heavily armed. Congressman and Senators and Presidents and diplomats will ALWAYS have heavily armed security details. That only leaves us, the law abiding citizens, to serve as pickings for the "bad guys" once Feinstein and Biden get their way.

Think about it.

I found the same problem at Ft. Benning in the early 80's.

 

[Oldguy]

The re-opening of mental assylums. The ones that never should have closed in the first place. Guns, videogames, music, tv, and all the other BS don't kill people...******* mental patients kill people. Lock them up. Proof of needed medication is enough.

So, everyone who kills someone is a mental patient?

After watching your replies I can only surmise that you have too much starch in your shorts, and that is the reason for your disagreeable demeanor.

So...asking questions and playing the devil's advocate is "disagreeable?"

Maybe you should question yourself, rather than me.

 

[Oldguy]

a Nanny form of government.

An interesting comment because that's EXACTLY what the gun control debate boils down to. It's just another "nanny state" issue at it's core.

Does the state have a roll to play in protecting us? If so, how much?

Ironic.

What it all boils down to...that exact point...

The extremely broad view of "State Protections", is that point.

Is that what it really "boils" down to? an extremely broad view?

I don't know. I really wish I did. And, it seems that nobody else knows either.

 

[Oldguy]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

That also begs the question of the definition of mental illness. You or I could create a list of totally unrelated "symptoms," call that a mental illness, and SOMEBODY would fit that criteria.

 

[Oldguy]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

I am more than ready and prepared to discuss the problems this country is seeing since the breakdown in mental health care. What happened Friday and on too many horrible tragic days before is without a doubt in my mind connected to the way we administer mental health care in this country.

In my opinion the focus should be on:

Speedy and timely mental health evaluation

Looking closely at what role prescription drug use plays sometimes in the lives of people.

Looking closely and in depth at what role medical insurance plays a role.

Not looking for the politically correct way to address mental illness but definitely the best way for both the patient and society.

Learning exactly what is the criteria for determining whether a person is potentially dangerous.

How many people are considered "strange" by their friends, families and schoolmates but are not diagnosed with any behavioral or mental illnes?

How many people are misdiagnosed?

How easy is it for a parent to get care for their child especially once he or she becomes an adult of 18?



I could go on and on. People need to start connecting with all people directly involved in the mental health world especially clinicians and ask them where the disconnect and failings are.

Not bad, in a general sense, but I see a couple of problems, not the least of which is the growing disconnect between people and their "friends" because of social media. For far too many people, their only friends are on-line and there IS NO direct personal contact which is essential to make a determination whether or not that person needs intervention.

 

[Dreamy]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

That also begs the question of the definition of mental illness. You or I could create a list of totally unrelated "symptoms," call that a mental illness, and SOMEBODY would fit that criteria.

I am sure. I don't pretend my list is the end all or that it even comes closed to discussing all that needs exploring. I just posted the general direction I think we as people and the professionals should be looking toward in earnest.

 

[Dreamy]

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

I am more than ready and prepared to discuss the problems this country is seeing since the breakdown in mental health care. What happened Friday and on too many horrible tragic days before is without a doubt in my mind connected to the way we administer mental health care in this country.

In my opinion the focus should be on:

Speedy and timely mental health evaluation

Looking closely at what role prescription drug use plays sometimes in the lives of people.

Looking closely and in depth at what role medical insurance plays a role.

Not looking for the politically correct way to address mental illness but definitely the best way for both the patient and society.

Learning exactly what is the criteria for determining whether a person is potentially dangerous.

How many people are considered "strange" by their friends, families and schoolmates but are not diagnosed with any behavioral or mental illnes?

How many people are misdiagnosed?

How easy is it for a parent to get care for their child especially once he or she becomes an adult of 18?



I could go on and on. People need to start connecting with all people directly involved in the mental health world especially clinicians and ask them where the disconnect and failings are.

Not bad, in a general sense, but I see a couple of problems, not the least of which is the growing disconnect between people and their "friends" because of social media. For far too many people, their only friends are on-line and there IS NO direct personal contact which is essential to make a determination whether or not that person needs intervention.

My comments are definitely quickly pulled together and quite general but just offered as a jumping off point for exploration.

You point about social disconnect is definitely something that needs a look at imo. I have always believe it has changed politics in a negative way somewhat so why not also the lives of some people susceptible and vulnerable to real time and real life social isolation.

 

[Rozman]

Gun owners are not giving up their guns anytime soon...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If someone, especially those with mental health issues or rage issues, is intent on killing a large group of people they will find a way. The black market for guns will always exist(see illegal drugs) and there are several other ways to kill large numbers of people. If there is a sinister will, there is a terrible way. Address the cause of crazy and evil and stop pretending this is all about the weapons used.

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

And what rights do you advocate ‘restricting.’

Those suspected of being ‘mentally ill’ are just as entitled to due process rights as anyone else before he has his freedom or rights curtailed.

 

[Oldguy]

Overall, this has been a surprisingly good thread. 10 1/2 hours, more than 250 responses and it hasn't devolved into a flame-out! Oh, sure, a couple of the usual suspects dropped by mouthing today's FOX talking points and acting like pricks, but none of the sane, rational posters would bite, so they left. Good O!

We've come up with a few good suggestions, some which sound good but aren't practical in the application, a few which are a bit out there, but we ARE talking and we ARE serious about it.

How I wish the national debate could be conducted in such a manner!

But, of course, just talking about it solves nothing...UNLESS we see something we think might work and forward it on to our elected representatives. There's no value in these discussion forums unless that is translated into action and that means WE, The People, have make our voice heard.

Good job, all!

 

[Oldguy]

You are right. Absolutely right.

Now are you prepared to do what needs to be done? are you for re-opening the mental assylums, and putting away those who should be put away. Are you prepared to restrict the rights of those with mental illnesses? This is the only solution, the rest of society should not be restricted because of the mentally ill. Restrict them...they are the ones who are ill.

That also begs the question of the definition of mental illness. You or I could create a list of totally unrelated "symptoms," call that a mental illness, and SOMEBODY would fit that criteria.

I am sure. I don't pretend my list is the end all or that it even comes closed to discussing all that needs exploring. I just posted the general direction I think we as people and the professionals should be looking toward in earnest.

And, I don't disagree with you in principle. As always, the devil is in the details, isn't it?