Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[onefour1]

God taught them He warned them not to eat of that tree. God handed them life eternal for free if they didn't eat of that tree. A tremendous value, worth more than all the wealth combined on earth a gazillion times over. A liar comes along who did 0 for them, and Eve believed him over God. Thus kicking God in the teeth and all offspring as well.

And before Adam and Eve were ever placed on the earth, God called Jesus to be the Savior of the world knowing well in advance that Adam and Eve would fall and provided a means of salvation before the foundation of the world. Then God cast Satan and all his minions into the earth also knowing that they would serve as tempters of mankind knowing full well that Adam and Eve would succumb to the temptations well in advance. Finally God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil within the Garden of Eden knowing full well that if he commanded them to not eat of it, that they would eat of it. Sounds as if God had this all planned out in advance and that He expected and wanted Adam and Eve to fall. Maybe it was God's plan all along to have us experience mortal life and good and evil here on this earth.

1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[Foxfyre]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

IMO, God could not allow humankind to know love, charity, honor, success, hope, joy, triumph, satisfaction without giving humankind free will. If he had made us incapable of sin/error/misfortune, we would just be mindless puppets going through the motions here and what purpose could that have served? Maybe God needs our love, I don't know. We darn sure need His though.

In an old classic movie "Oh God!", God played by George Burns answered that question with the laws of science. He never figured out how to make an in without an out, and up without a down, etc.

The question is on my list of questions as a matter of curiosity though. That list of questions is the only thing I've asked to take to Heaven when I go. I probably won't be allowed to but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Cellblock2429]

God taught them He warned them not to eat of that tree. God handed them life eternal for free if they didn't eat of that tree. A tremendous value, worth more than all the wealth combined on earth a gazillion times over. A liar comes along who did 0 for them, and Eve believed him over God. Thus kicking God in the teeth and all offspring as well.

/——/ And some religious scholars say the fruit of the forbidden tree was actually a metaphor for oral sex.

 

[onefour1]

IMO, God could not allow humankind to know love, charity, honor, success, hope, joy, triumph, satisfaction without giving humankind free will. If he had made us incapable of sin/error/misfortune, we would just be mindless puppets going through the motions here and what purpose could that have served? Maybe God needs our love, I don't know. We darn sure need His though.

In an old classic movie "Oh God!", God played by George Burns answered that question with the laws of science. He never figured out how to make an in without an out, and up without a down, etc.

The question is on my list of questions as a matter of curiosity though. That list of questions is the only thing I've asked to take to Heaven when I go. I probably won't be allowed to but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask.

Under the assumption that "all powerful" would mean that God could do absolutely anything imaginable, then one would have to believe that God had the power and know how to create mankind to be exactly like himself with free will. I believe God is a free will being and always chooses to choose the right. In other words, God, being all powerful, should have the power to create beings who have free will and have the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to always choose good with their free will just as God himself does. They wouldn't be mindless puppets but would be exactly like God himself always choosing good over evil of their own free will and choice.

I believe that when God creates good that its opposite is also created. When God says, "Thou shalt not kill", the free will opposite to that is to kill. With opposition in all things and the free will to choose, one has the opportunity to choose either good or bad. However, if the assumption that God can do anything imaginable is true, then He should have the power to create an all knowing, all powerful, and all loving being just like himself who can use perfect reasoning with their free will to always reason to choose the good over the evil.

If you have read through my posts on this thread, I do not believe that God is capable of doing absolutely anything imaginable. I believe that the term "all powerful" means that God is able to do all that is infinitely possible. In other words, I believe that there eternal impossibilities that not even God can do. As an example, I don't believe God can be an all good being and an all evil being simultaneously. I don't believe God can exist and not exist simultaneously, etc. One of the things God has revealed in latter-day scripture is that He cannot create our intelligence. Thus if God cannot create intelligence, then He cannot create intelligence to be perfect. I believe our intelligence is self-existing and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. Thus God must use another means other than creation to bring us up to perfection. This is why I believe mankind was not created to be perfect by God and why He uses other means to teach us to choose good over evil.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 

[kjw47]

And before Adam and Eve were ever placed on the earth, God called Jesus to be the Savior of the world knowing well in advance that Adam and Eve would fall and provided a means of salvation before the foundation of the world. Then God cast Satan and all his minions into the earth also knowing that they would serve as tempters of mankind knowing full well that Adam and Eve would succumb to the temptations well in advance. Finally God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil within the Garden of Eden knowing full well that if he commanded them to not eat of it, that they would eat of it. Sounds as if God had this all planned out in advance and that He expected and wanted Adam and Eve to fall. Maybe it was God's plan all along to have us experience mortal life and good and evil here on this earth.

1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Jesus was not called prior to the fall in Eden.

 

[kjw47]

/——/ And some religious scholars say the fruit of the forbidden tree was actually a metaphor for oral sex.

Men make up all kinds of untruths. Its why hundreds of different religions claiming to be christian are a mass of confusion-99% of them lack holy spirit. Jesus is with 1.

 

[Foxfyre]

Under the assumption that "all powerful" would mean that God could do absolutely anything imaginable, then one would have to believe that God had the power and know how to create mankind to be exactly like himself with free will. I believe God is a free will being and always chooses to choose the right. In other words, God, being all powerful, should have the power to create beings who have free will and have the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to always choose good with their free will just as God himself does. They wouldn't be mindless puppets but would be exactly like God himself always choosing good over evil of their own free will and choice.

I believe that when God creates good that its opposite is also created. When God says, "Thou shalt not kill", the free will opposite to that is to kill. With opposition in all things and the free will to choose, one has the opportunity to choose either good or bad. However, if the assumption that God can do anything imaginable is true, then He should have the power to create an all knowing, all powerful, and all loving being just like himself who can use perfect reasoning with their free will to always reason to choose the good over the evil.

If you have read through my posts on this thread, I do not believe that God is capable of doing absolutely anything imaginable. I believe that the term "all powerful" means that God is able to do all that is infinitely possible. In other words, I believe that there eternal impossibilities that not even God can do. As an example, I don't believe God can be an all good being and an all evil being simultaneously. I don't believe God can exist and not exist simultaneously, etc. One of the things God has revealed in latter-day scripture is that He cannot create our intelligence. Thus if God cannot create intelligence, then He cannot create intelligence to be perfect. I believe our intelligence is self-existing and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. Thus God must use another means other than creation to bring us up to perfection. This is why I believe mankind was not created to be perfect by God and why He uses other means to teach us to choose good over evil.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Again to know what God intended, what God intends, what God thinks, what God knows is way above my paygrade. All I have to go on is using logic and reason that I believe He gave me, I think if we were capable of defining and explaining the Creator, we would be Gods. And I'm quite certain that we are not.

I am also not at all vain enough to think I have all or most of the answers for others and accept their beliefs as their beliefs.. I love to discuss theology and different ways of looking at it. My only quarrel in religion is with those who use it to try to destroy the faith of others.

 

[Moonglow]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

God doesn't like competition.

 

[onefour1]

Jesus was not called prior to the fall in Eden.

Sure He was! That is what the verse I posted tells us as well as Revelation 13:8

1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[onefour1]

Again to know what God intended, what God intends, what God thinks, what God knows is way above my paygrade. All I have to go on is using logic and reason that I believe He gave me, I think if we were capable of defining and explaining the Creator, we would be Gods. And I'm quite certain that we are not.

I am also not at all vain enough to think I have all or most of the answers for others and accept their beliefs as their beliefs.. I love to discuss theology and different ways of looking at it. My only quarrel in religion is with those who use it to try to destroy the faith of others.

I am using logic and reason to show you that if one believes that God is all powerful in that He can do absolutely anything imaginable. Then if we can imagine that He can do absolutely anything, we certainly can logically deduce that He could create beings to be exactly like himself. That is logical. Also it is logical then to ask why He would not create us to be perfect like himself, if we were to believe that he has the power to do absolutely anything imaginable. Now if God is not able to do absolutely anything imaginable, then that would be a logical reason as to why He might not be able to create us to be perfect. Not being able to create our intelligence because our intelligences are self-existing is a logical reason as to why God could not create our intelligence and thus could not create it to be perfect. If God revealed to us that intelligences are self-existing and could not be create or made, then the whole logic really rests on whether or not one believes the revelation was from God or not. That is all I am saying. For me personally, I believe the revelation that God has declared that He has never created or made our intelligences and thus they are self-existent.

Some believe that God can do anything imaginable and that nothing besides God is self-existent. This thread only asks that they explain why God would not create us to be perfect under such a belief.

 

[onefour1]

God doesn't like competition.

If God is perfect, then his competition would not be perfect if they did not agree with him. Thus they couldn't compete with him since he is perfect and they are not.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Why is it an excuse? If God is all powerful, then wouldn't he have the power to create us perfect like himself? If God is all knowing, then wouldn't have the know how to create us perfect like himself? If God is all loving, then wouldn't he love us enough to create us perfect like himself? How is it an excuse?

If He did create us perfect, how is it that we make imperfect decisions and have short comings?

Please point out one thing made perfect from the start.

Diamonds start as carbon and undergo quite a transformation. Then they are mined, cleaned up and cut.

People are no different. They grow through their experiences.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am using logic and reason to show you that if one believes that God is all powerful in that He can do absolutely anything imaginable. Then if we can imagine that He can do absolutely anything, we certainly can logically deduce that He could create beings to be exactly like himself. That is logical. Also it is logical then to ask why He would not create us to be perfect like himself, if we were to believe that he has the power to do absolutely anything imaginable. Now if God is not able to do absolutely anything imaginable, then that would be a logical reason as to why He might not be able to create us to be perfect. Not being able to create our intelligence because our intelligences are self-existing is a logical reason as to why God could not create our intelligence and thus could not create it to be perfect. If God revealed to us that intelligences are self-existing and could not be create or made, then the whole logic really rests on whether or not one believes the revelation was from God or not. That is all I am saying. For me personally, I believe the revelation that God has declared that He has never created or made our intelligences and thus they are self-existent.

Some believe that God can do anything imaginable and that nothing besides God is self-existent. This thread only asks that they explain why God would not create us to be perfect under such a belief.

I don't accept that one who has unlimited power will always choose to use it. I am not arguing with you or certainly don't intend to be. I just think my relationship with God is both amazing and unfathomable and I have no theories on why God allowed his perfect Creation to become so imperfect at the hands of those He created.

But I know a person cannot be commanded to love another. We either do or we don't. And maybe that is applicable to God as much as it is us, i.e. we were created in His image so I've read. But without the choice to not love, I do think no love is possible. I am curious about it all but do not pretend to have the answers.

 

[kjw47]

Sure He was! That is what the verse I posted tells us as well as Revelation 13:8

1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

it says foreordained, that can mean many things.
Jesus has a God, God does not have a God. Worship is a mistranslated Greek word in error filled trinity translating that has 4 other meanings. 1 is Obeisance to a king= the correct translating of that Greek word( Proskenaue) for Jesus.

 

[onefour1]

it says foreordained, that can mean many things.
Jesus has a God, God does not have a God. Worship is a mistranslated Greek word in error filled trinity translating that has 4 other meanings. 1 is Obeisance to a king= the correct translating of that Greek word( Proskenaue) for Jesus.

The greatest calling of all mankind was the calling of Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the world. Christ's whole life and ministry on this earth was to fulfill all righteousness and bring about the salvation of all mankind. What other calling or foreordination do you suppose Jesus was foreordained to do? 1 Peter 1:19-20 tells us that this foreordination occurred before the foundation of the world. It also speaks of us all being saved by the blood of Jesus in verse 19:

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

This is what Jesus was foreordained to become before the foundation of the world. This was the whole purpose of his life and death. This was the most important calling and foreordination of all. He was foreordained to be the Savior of the world. He was foreordained to be the Christ. This is why Revelation 13:8 calls Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It was already predetermined that Jesus would be the Savior and that all mankind, even from the time of Adam, could rely upon the atonement of Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[kjw47]

The greatest calling of all mankind was the calling of Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the world. Christ's whole life and ministry on this earth was to fulfill all righteousness and bring about the salvation of all mankind. What other calling or foreordination do you suppose Jesus was foreordained to do? 1 Peter 1:19-20 tells us that this foreordination occurred before the foundation of the world. It also speaks of us all being saved by the blood of Jesus in verse 19:

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

This is what Jesus was foreordained to become before the foundation of the world. This was the whole purpose of his life and death. This was the most important calling and foreordination of all. He was foreordained to be the Savior of the world. He was foreordained to be the Christ. This is why Revelation 13:8 calls Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It was already predetermined that Jesus would be the Savior and that all mankind, even from the time of Adam, could rely upon the atonement of Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

One who has a God does NOT get worship. But being Gods appointed king gets bowed to in Obesiance.
Your twisting what that actually means. 1Peter says-foreknown--Means he was known before the founding of the world. He is the firstborn of all creation= created direct first and last. All other things created THROUGH(John 1:3) him. If its done through him means another did the creating=his God and Father did all the creating. See at Gen 1:27--HE( NOT WE) did the creating. Jesus is the one beside God during creating-Prov 8:30) he is Gods master worker0--He gives God 100% credit for creation at Prov 8. God is the only one with the power and wisdom to create.

 

[onefour1]

One who has a God does NOT get worship. But being Gods appointed king gets bowed to in Obesiance.
Your twisting what that actually means. 1Peter says-foreknown--Means he was known before the founding of the world. He is the firstborn of all creation= created direct first and last. All other things created THROUGH(John 1:3) him. If its done through him means another did the creating=his God and Father did all the creating. See at Gen 1:27--HE( NOT WE) did the creating. Jesus is the one beside God during creating-Prov 8:30) he is Gods master worker0--He gives God 100% credit for creation at Prov 8. God is the only one with the power and wisdom to create.

I am not and have not argued that Jesus alone brought about the creation of all things. Jesus, as a member of the Godhead, and under the direction of the Father has created all things.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse we see that there is more than one who is being spoken of when speaking of creating mankind in their image and likeness. Verse 27 goes on to show that after collaborating with God the Father, Jesus creates man in his own image and likeness witch is the same likeness and image as the Father because as John 1:3 states, all things were made by him. The Father and Son were both part of the godhead as John 1:1 indicates and were both part of the planning of the creation as Genesis 1:26 indicates. It was Jesus however, that went forth and created man as John 1:3 and Genesis 1:27 indicates. The Father and the Son are united and as Jesus taught in John 5:19-20, He only does that which the Father would have him do.

 

[kjw47]

I am not and have not argued that Jesus alone brought about the creation of all things. Jesus, as a member of the Godhead, and under the direction of the Father has created all things.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse we see that there is more than one who is being spoken of when speaking of creating mankind in their image and likeness. Verse 27 goes on to show that after collaborating with God the Father, Jesus creates man in his own image and likeness witch is the same likeness and image as the Father because as John 1:3 states, all things were made by him. The Father and Son were both part of the godhead as John 1:1 indicates and were both part of the planning of the creation as Genesis 1:26 indicates. It was Jesus however, that went forth and created man as John 1:3 and Genesis 1:27 indicates. The Father and the Son are united and as Jesus taught in John 5, He only does that which the Father would have him do.

The word is called god at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons. Not God.
Let us= YHVH(Jehovah) and his master worker( Prov 8:30) = the one whom YHVH(Jehovah) created all other things through( John 1:3)--One cannot create things through themself.

 

[onefour1]

The word is called god at John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons. Not God.
Let us= YHVH(Jehovah) and his master worker( Prov 8:30) = the one whom YHVH(Jehovah) created all other things through( John 1:3)--One cannot create things through themself.

The word used in Greek is "Theos". This word is used for God, with a capital G, many times in the Bible. See Greek Concordance: θεός (theos) -- 311 Occurrences . Just because a particular translator to English made it a small g doesn't prove anything.

I imagine that through God the Father, Jesus was given the power to create all things. I don't believe that He took it upon himself but was made part of the Godhead by the Father and given all the power or the fullness of the Godhead by the Father. Thus Jesus as a member of the Godhead was also God. He was united in one with the Father.

 

[kjw47]

The word used in Greek is "Theos". This word is used for God, with a capital G, many times in the Bible. See Greek Concordance: θεός (theos) -- 311 Occurrences . Just because a particular translator to English made it a small g doesn't prove anything.

I imagine that through God the Father, Jesus was given the power to create all things. I don't believe that He took it upon himself but was made part of the Godhead by the Father and given all the power or the fullness of the Godhead by the Father. Thus Jesus as a member of the Godhead was also God. He was united in one with the Father.

At John 1:1 the true God called Ho Theos( Ton Theon)--The word called Theos.( Theon)-- At 2 Cor 4:4 the true God called Ho Theos( Ton Theon), satan called Theos( Theon) --translating works the same at both spots. So the only 2 choices are-Satan is God and the Word is God, or satan is god and the word is god.
Yes The true God called Theos( Theon) in many spots of NT when spoken of alone as God--But when 2 are being called God or god in the same paragraph capitol G God got Ho in front of Theos to show the difference.
Every bible scholar knows its fact, yet they say 0-Why? Billions of dollars would be lost yearly, hundreds of religions claiming to be christian would be proved false religion. 2 billion humans would sue them for all they have because they do know and thus are stealing their money under false pretenses.