If God doesn't exist...

[IsaacNewton]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

So now your scientific creation theory/theology doesn't have to follow the laws of physics?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No, physicists already know the current laws of physics did not reign during the big bang. And before that if there is nothing there are no laws.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

So now your scientific creation theory/theology doesn't have to follow the laws of physics?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No, physicists already know the current laws of physics did not reign during the big bang. And before that if there is nothing there are no laws.

I see... So out of the chaos your God Of Science established order, and the laws of physics, when he created the universe.....

.....How come this sounds very familiar?.....

.....Was there a 'firmament' present when the current laws of physics didn't apply back then?

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

 

[amrchaos]

I'm not the one that brought up the Big Bang or Evolution and claimed they were true or false in science. You presumed I did and then asked if I saw these things occur. I explained to you how science approached these theories.

However you seem quite positive about the answers science comes up with without actually having been there.

Not my fault you do not understand what science is, as was evident in your follow up. You called it a religion when it does not have the characteristics or properties to be a religion. Science does not teach discipline in behavior. Science does not teach how to deal with others or how to value oneself. Science does not teach how to apply science for the betterment of society. Religion does, not science.

I assure you that I understand science quite well... Most likely better than you if this conversation is any indication of your knowledge on the subject.

You did set yourself for a fail(presuming answers I didn't give. Assuming you can't prove things you can't see) and totally failed in the follow up (assuming I practice science as a religion.

From my perspective you practice it like an Orthodox Jew or Orthodox Catholic. Blindly following whatever is put in front of you and not questioning what's said.

When the truth is you use religion to explain your science. ) That can be seen as projection on your part. You really failed twice.

Really????? Obviously you fail to see the perspective I'm looking at it from. Even though I stated earlier in the conversation what my practicing beliefs are. I would say that's the biggest fail on your part.

Also, anyone can give a critique of their or another culture. However, I am not too sure which culture you are referring to.

Right now? YOURS.

You start with perhaps, so I think this is an assumption on your part.
But what you say next makes little sense and is not what is described in Genesis

The firmament is a PHYSICAL barrier that separates the waters of the Earth from the waters of the Sky. The stars are fixed lights in the firmament. There is no need to hand wave or assume, it is described in Genesis and it doe not exist.

You're the one that brought up Genesis and the firmament. I'm only making a suggestion that it and your unexplainably kick started universe might have something in common..... Call it a joke at your expense.

*****CHUCKLE*****

Hold it

If you read the Bible as an allegorical account, how do you come up with miracles are real?

Do you understand the question?

Because so far, it seemed like you took the Bible as literal. However,when I pointed out the literal take does not comport with reality, you tried to give an unfounded assertion.

Now you complain to me about treating the Bible literally,which, by the way, you have done for most of this thread as you post to others.

However, I am still curious


If you read the Bible as an allegorical account, how do you come up with miracles are real?

Understand--when I say real, I mean something of a physical nature.

 

[zaangalewa]

An artist doesn't evolve a masterpiece. And likewise the Creator created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th in order to illustrate to Adam exactly how he should spend his existence. The entire Universe illustrates the eternality of GOD, His power, and majesty. It is the limited minds of humans who must extrapolate that the Universe took billions of years to form when the Universe only represents a glimpse of eternity that can be just as likely to have been DESIGNED/CREATED a few thousand years ago..

Did your god create physics? Because the law of physics says it is 13.7 billion years. Science doesn't create something, it merely reveals what reality is.

And that's the great thing about religious books, people read them and then insert their own imagination so that the words can mean absolutely anything. The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, Mohammed, Jesus...pick one.They are the expression of human beings who were terrified of the real world because it liked to kill them, so they created supernatural beings who had to be 'the god of the volcano' or the 'god of the corn' or the 'god of the forest'. Its a mental way to try to have some control over nature and over all those things in nature that man didn't understand like floods, volcanoes, lightning, comets, eclipses...

Only we DO understand all these things now, thanks to understanding physics. And biology, geography, oceanography, plate tectonics, evolution, introns, exons, mutation rates, calculus.

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

An artist doesn't evolve a masterpiece. And likewise the Creator created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th in order to illustrate to Adam exactly how he should spend his existence. The entire Universe illustrates the eternality of GOD, His power, and majesty. It is the limited minds of humans who must extrapolate that the Universe took billions of years to form when the Universe only represents a glimpse of eternity that can be just as likely to have been DESIGNED/CREATED a few thousand years ago..

Did your god create physics? Because the law of physics says it is 13.7 billion years. Science doesn't create something, it merely reveals what reality is.

And that's the great thing about religious books, people read them and then insert their own imagination so that the words can mean absolutely anything. The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, Mohammed, Jesus...pick one.They are the expression of human beings who were terrified of the real world because it liked to kill them, so they created supernatural beings who had to be 'the god of the volcano' or the 'god of the corn' or the 'god of the forest'. Its a mental way to try to have some control over nature and over all those things in nature that man didn't understand like floods, volcanoes, lightning, comets, eclipses...

Only we DO understand all these things now, thanks to understanding physics. And biology, geography, oceanography, plate tectonics, evolution, introns, exons, mutation rates, calculus.

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

What gives you the ability to discern that there's no such thing as God at all?

*****CHUCKLE*****

I'm an agnostic and a scientist, I don't say 100% that I know. But 99.999% yes, there is are no 'gods'. Rather odd that each person says 'no god', singular, referring of course to their own 'god'.

You of course cannot prove there is no Zeus or Mithra or the Spaghetti Monster. But that is exactly what theists do, they 'claim' to know there is only one 'god' and their 'god' is the only true 'god'.

If you would be an agnostics then you would say: "100% I don't know wether god exists or not". You are just simple an atheist - that's your belief. And you are without a big idea about when and how to use probability calculations. You just simple have some wrong ideas about other people who are not atheists (= a-atheists=theists). And in your self-created world - no: in the world of your indcotrinating ideology - you are thinking you are living in the noble world of science. But indeed believers of all religions - and not only atheists - are able to be scientists.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

I'm not the one that brought up the Big Bang or Evolution and claimed they were true or false in science. You presumed I did and then asked if I saw these things occur. I explained to you how science approached these theories.

However you seem quite positive about the answers science comes up with without actually having been there.

Not my fault you do not understand what science is, as was evident in your follow up. You called it a religion when it does not have the characteristics or properties to be a religion. Science does not teach discipline in behavior. Science does not teach how to deal with others or how to value oneself. Science does not teach how to apply science for the betterment of society. Religion does, not science.

I assure you that I understand science quite well... Most likely better than you if this conversation is any indication of your knowledge on the subject.

You did set yourself for a fail(presuming answers I didn't give. Assuming you can't prove things you can't see) and totally failed in the follow up (assuming I practice science as a religion.

From my perspective you practice it like an Orthodox Jew or Orthodox Catholic. Blindly following whatever is put in front of you and not questioning what's said.

When the truth is you use religion to explain your science. ) That can be seen as projection on your part. You really failed twice.

Really????? Obviously you fail to see the perspective I'm looking at it from. Even though I stated earlier in the conversation what my practicing beliefs are. I would say that's the biggest fail on your part.

Also, anyone can give a critique of their or another culture. However, I am not too sure which culture you are referring to.

Right now? YOURS.

You start with perhaps, so I think this is an assumption on your part.
But what you say next makes little sense and is not what is described in Genesis

The firmament is a PHYSICAL barrier that separates the waters of the Earth from the waters of the Sky. The stars are fixed lights in the firmament. There is no need to hand wave or assume, it is described in Genesis and it doe not exist.

You're the one that brought up Genesis and the firmament. I'm only making a suggestion that it and your unexplainably kick started universe might have something in common..... Call it a joke at your expense.

*****CHUCKLE*****

Hold it

If you read the Bible as an allegorical account, how do you come up with miracles are real?

Do you understand the question?

Because so far, it seemed like you took the Bible as literal. However,when I pointed out the literal take does not comport with reality, you tried to give an unfounded assertion.

Now you complain to me about treating the Bible literally,which, by the way, you have done for most of this thread as you post to others.

However, I am still curious


If you read the Bible as an allegorical account, how do you come up with miracles are real?

Understand--when I say real, I mean something of a physical nature.

Your biggest fail is that you keep assuming that I consider myself a Christian or Jew or something when I've already told you what I am.

*****CHUCKLE******

 

[ChrisL]

Did your god create physics? Because the law of physics says it is 13.7 billion years. Science doesn't create something, it merely reveals what reality is.

And that's the great thing about religious books, people read them and then insert their own imagination so that the words can mean absolutely anything. The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, Mohammed, Jesus...pick one.They are the expression of human beings who were terrified of the real world because it liked to kill them, so they created supernatural beings who had to be 'the god of the volcano' or the 'god of the corn' or the 'god of the forest'. Its a mental way to try to have some control over nature and over all those things in nature that man didn't understand like floods, volcanoes, lightning, comets, eclipses...

Only we DO understand all these things now, thanks to understanding physics. And biology, geography, oceanography, plate tectonics, evolution, introns, exons, mutation rates, calculus.

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

Did your god create physics? Because the law of physics says it is 13.7 billion years. Science doesn't create something, it merely reveals what reality is.

And that's the great thing about religious books, people read them and then insert their own imagination so that the words can mean absolutely anything. The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, Mohammed, Jesus...pick one.They are the expression of human beings who were terrified of the real world because it liked to kill them, so they created supernatural beings who had to be 'the god of the volcano' or the 'god of the corn' or the 'god of the forest'. Its a mental way to try to have some control over nature and over all those things in nature that man didn't understand like floods, volcanoes, lightning, comets, eclipses...

Only we DO understand all these things now, thanks to understanding physics. And biology, geography, oceanography, plate tectonics, evolution, introns, exons, mutation rates, calculus.

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

No, you have it backwards. An atheist is the one who would say "100% there is no God." An agnostic isn't sure.

 

[ChrisL]

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

The gods Mythra, Zeus, Thor, Vishnu ------ were super humans and are in fact the creation of man who imagined that gods were like humans only exalted. Mohammed and Jesus are historical men. They actually existed. Mohammed never claimed to be divine but a prophet. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (Before Abraham was I AM). GOD is the author of nature and physics; however, HE is not subject to what HE created and designed And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, (Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) ------ we are & Satan is. 13.7 Billion years is but a human interpretation of existing evidence, and as such is neither absolute nor perfect. Science is but a tool which can be subject to abuse.

So you decide which 'gods' are the creation of man and which aren't. What evidence is there that any human in history was more than human?

You simply believe in one more god than atheists do out of the 4,000 or so currently identified by humans.

What gives anyone the ability to discern that all the other 3,999 are false?

They are all the creation of man. All.

No, you have it backwards. An atheist is the one who would say "100% there is no God." An agnostic isn't sure.

Let me try that again. You have it backwards. Atheists are the ones who say 100% there is no God. Agnostics aren't sure.

 

[zaangalewa]

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

Exactly. Nevertheless energy is [here]. How is it able to be [here]? Who or what made it - if nothing and no one in our world is able to create or to destroy energy?

 

[hortysir]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

So now your scientific creation theory/theology doesn't have to follow the laws of physics?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No, physicists already know the current laws of physics did not reign during the big bang. And before that if there is nothing there are no laws.

Do they?
How do they know?....better yet.....how do you know that they know?
Any links or something to support this?

 

[zaangalewa]

One of the most difficult things to define is creation.

Nothing was. Suddenly everything was.

There are only two possibilities in all the world: (1) That which exists has always existed, although not necessarily in the same form, and (2) something can be created out of nothing. Both concepts are somehow intellectually unacceptable, but
logic dictates that one must be true. The former hypothesis at least has some scientific support.

The scientific consensus is that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed , although the two are interchangeable (first law of thermodynamics). For simplicity I will say that “things” can neither be created nor destroyed. Since things do exist but could not have been created, the logical conclusion is that everything which now exists has always existed, albeit in another form. Naturally, this reasoning applies to all things: every pound, every atom; everything which can be weighed or measured; anything which can be acted upon or which can act upon itself or anything else. This would include God.

From a purely scientific perspective, God could create nothing since everything has always been and always will be. However, God could transform that which always was and will be. The only question is whether there was anything outside of God for Him to act upon, or whether God simply transformed Himself. As mind boggling as it sounds, creation could be explained by the self-transformation of an eternal God. Actually, the self-transformation of God is the only explanation which harmonizes the scientific concept that things cannot be created from nothing and the Christian concept of God the creator of all.

500 million years ago it was very difficult to find some chocolate. And still today it is not easy to find chocolate. But maybe we should not forget to protect the living conditions for all and every life on our planet, because it is the only planet with chocolate.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

So now your scientific creation theory/theology doesn't have to follow the laws of physics?

*****CHUCKLE*****

No, physicists already know the current laws of physics did not reign during the big bang. And before that if there is nothing there are no laws.

Do they?
How do they know?....better yet.....how do you know that they know?
Any links or something to support this?

He's referring to the theory that a lot of physicists hold at this time...

Understanding BIG BANG from the law of physics of today is not achievable. A conversation on TED.com

What Came Before the Big Bang DiscoverMagazine.com

...I think they are wrong and that we just don't have enough information to say that we understand how the universe operates at this time. After all even Einstein couldn't come up with a GUT Grand Universal Theory when he was alive. I suspect we're missing something(s) very basic and that one of these fine days someone will have an apple drop on their head and there'll be shouts of 'Eureka!'

Until then they prefer to assume that at one moment things were different, and in the next we had what we call the universe, because it makes them feel better in creating their theory/theology.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Damaged Eagle]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

I'm sure that you're very familiar with them.

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

 

[frigidweirdo]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

I'm sure that you're very familiar with them.

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

WHy are you sure?

 

[Damaged Eagle]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

I'm sure that you're very familiar with them.

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

WHy are you sure?

Because your prior answer indicates that you are.

*****SMILE*****

 

[frigidweirdo]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

I'm sure that you're very familiar with them.

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

WHy are you sure?

Because your prior answer indicates that you are.

*****SMILE*****

And maybe I'm lying. Maybe I'm just saying something.

I live on Mars.

Are you sure I live on Mars?

 

[zaangalewa]

... Well, if Einstein couldn't find the Grand Unifying Theory (GUT) I doubt that I will. Hell, I have a problem finding my glasses and car keys.

So what? Take a look at the cars of von Neumann or Woody Guthry. Some people are more absent than present and some people are more present than absent and others are more absent and present.

... I am amused by those who think that God is a bearded white man sitting on a throne somewhere in outer space. ...

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Just because we might not know all the answers to the beginning of the universe does not mean that a god was responsible

In fact I believe there are many things in this universe that we will never understand simply because our minds are incapable of it much like my dog is incapable of doing algebra

Damn - my dog is a liar.

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

You want to hear something strange.

We could go to the very very beginning of Genesis and define God as that which created light.
.
Then the problem becomes proving every other trait the Book attributess to God is the same thing that created light. We never have to talk about what created the Universe because Genesis never claimed God created the Universe!

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

Genesis starts with God creating light. That is the primary description given to God.

Now where does it say in Genesis that God created space, time(God created the the sun and moon to keep time), energy or even the natural laws? It does not.

So what do we have? You are assigning traits to God that may not exist in God. You are assuming. Whatever created those things could be something else unrelated to the God of Genesis.

You have to prove that these other things are the same as the God of Genesis before claiming that the God of Genesis created those things.

Until then, it seems like you are arguing Polytheism and assume Monotheism to make things simple for yourself.

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

Yes, I think it is simple to assume some things started, but aren't you interested in the questions of what and how?

I don't have a problem with nothing. If I will never awake after my death I would find this a very satisfying situation. If this is in the will of god, why not? But that's not what I believe nor something someone can be sure about. Whatever god decides in this context - I hope one day he gives me a good explanantion for all the nonsense and confusion in our brains. And sure it is interesting to know why god created the world or how he made it concrete. But if someone knows something about or not helps no one anything. What we need is respect for his creation. Do you know for example that human beings are hunting sharks, cut off their fins and throw them back into the sea -alive - without fins? I fear the day I see someone eat shark-fin soup and I lose control.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

I see God every time I open my eyes.

Good for you. I know people who see weird stuff when they open their eyes, they're druggies.

I'm sure that you're very familiar with them.

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

WHy are you sure?

Because your prior answer indicates that you are.

*****SMILE*****

And maybe I'm lying. Maybe I'm just saying something.

I live on Mars.

Are you sure I live on Mars?

You would lie to me????? Imagine that!

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

 

[zaangalewa]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

What you say is without logic. If the universe had a beginning then existed a first cause - but a first cause is uncaused. So nothing started the universe.

 

[frigidweirdo]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

It did have a beginning. Something from nothing notates a starting point.

What you say is without logic. If the universe had a beginning then existed a first cause - but a first cause is uncaused. So nothing started the universe.

How do you know the universe had a beginning?