If God doesn't exist...

[zaangalewa]

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

You want to hear something strange.

We could go to the very very beginning of Genesis and define God as that which created light.
.
Then the problem becomes proving every other trait the Book attributess to God is the same thing that created light. We never have to talk about what created the Universe because Genesis never claimed God created the Universe!

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

 

[zaangalewa]

Oh god, this stupid shit.. Who created god? It's a infinite cycle both ways, I just don't give a fuck.

God was not existing before he created existance itselve out of nothing - because nothing was existing before. He never began, he always was.

 

[edthecynic]

All I know, no atheist in Fox holes

And no believers out of foxholes!

 

[edthecynic]

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

Gravity is a force, not a reaction to a force.

 

[edthecynic]

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

 

[zaangalewa]

We should remember how our minds and our thinking are limited by our languages. This often leads to unsupportable assumptions and logic-loops.
Since we cannot explain some things, especially something so important as existence, we force nouns and terms to fit our fears. The universe must have had a start, yet there must have been a precedent.
What makes us insist on that? Since we know that we don't know, how can we ask the question, "what was before the beginning?", when the very question posits an oxymoron? There can be no "before the beginning". Yet, human thinking cannot tolerate, nor indeed digest, such a thought.
We need to let go more.
Or, we can just use 'God' as a metaphor to help us along until we grow into a fuller understanding.

You are using thoughts what came from Saint Augustine. In his time - about 1600-1700 years ago - an argument against Christians was: Christian are idiots because "What did god before he created the world? No one knows!" But Saint Augustine answered something like: "When god created the world, he created first time itselve. So this question is senseless, because we are not able to ask what someone did before time existed."

 

[edthecynic]

And yet in it's arrogance science created a creation theology to deny that some higher power might exist.

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
― Anne Lamott

 

[edthecynic]

You can verify that the Big Bang occurred because you watched it happen?

Scientists are more creative than that in verifying events.

A Science Odyssey People and Discoveries Penzias and Wilson discover cosmic microwave radiation

When they began to use it as a telescope they found there was a background "noise" (like static in a radio). This annoyance was a uniform signal in the microwave range, seeming to come from all directions. Everyone assumed it came from the telescope itself, which was not unusual. It hadn't interfered with the Echo system but Penzias and Wilson had to get rid of it to make the observations they planned. They checked everything to rule out the source of the excess radiation. They pointed the antenna right at New York City -- it wasn't urban interference. It wasn't radiation from our galaxy or extraterrestrial radio sources. It wasn't even the pigeons living in the big, horn-shaped antenna. Penzias and Wilson kicked them out and swept out all their droppings. The source remained the same through four seasons, so it couldn't have come from the solar system or even from a 1962 above-ground nuclear test, because in a year that fallout would have shown a decrease. They had to conclude it was not the machine and it was not random noise causing the radiation.

Penzias and Wilson began looking for theoretical explanations. Around the same time, Robert Dicke (1916�1997) at nearby Princeton University had been pursuing theories about the big bang. He had elaborated on existing theory to suggest that if there had been a big bang, the residue of the explosion should by now take the form of a low-level background radiation throughout the universe. Dicke was looking for evidence of this theory when Penzias and Wilson got in touch with his lab. He shared his theoretical work with them, even as he resignedly said to his fellow-researchers, "We've been scooped."

 

[amrchaos]

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

You want to hear something strange.

We could go to the very very beginning of Genesis and define God as that which created light.
.
Then the problem becomes proving every other trait the Book attributess to God is the same thing that created light. We never have to talk about what created the Universe because Genesis never claimed God created the Universe!

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

Genesis starts with God creating light. That is the primary description given to God.

Now where does it say in Genesis that God created space, time(God created the the sun and moon to keep time), energy or even the natural laws? It does not.

So what do we have? You are assigning traits to God that may not exist in God. You are assuming. Whatever created those things could be something else unrelated to the God of Genesis.

You have to prove that these other things are the same as the God of Genesis before claiming that the God of Genesis created those things.

Until then, it seems like you are arguing Polytheism and assume Monotheism to make things simple for yourself.

 

[zaangalewa]

"If God doesn't exist..."

There is no 'if' – 'god' does not exist as perceived by theists.

What's your belief.

 

[zaangalewa]

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

The answer is that we don't know, which only means that we don't know. If that is something some can't deal with, then "God did it" is as good as any other guess.

And what exactly do you guess?

 

[frigidweirdo]

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

If you define "what started the universe" as God, is that not OK?
Now the problem becomes what other traits does this God has, if any are discernible.

Warning:God as defined may not be anthropomorphic nor contributed any more than the theoretical start of the Universe. It does not take much to realize this may not be the God of Genesis.

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

If you define "what started the universe" as God, is that not OK?
Now the problem becomes what other traits does this God has, if any are discernible.

Warning:God as defined may not be anthropomorphic nor contributed any more than the theoretical start of the Universe. It does not take much to realize this may not be the God of Genesis.

So, you say God is what made the universe, but you don't know what made the universe. So God is everything you don't know?

More like
I don't know what started the universe.
I assumed it has a start(the hypothesis)
I decided to call the thing which started the universe God.

I could have given it another name, like the Big Bang, the Appearing Tide, The first Dawn,etc..

It is nothing but a label for a definition.

By the way, there is a lot of things I don't know. I would find it confusing if I labeed each and everything I don't know 'God'. Until I come up with a clear definition of what I assume it is and give it a unique label, why not just call it "something I don't know".

But then again do you call it God because you don't know, or do you call it God out of convenience for an argument?

 

[zaangalewa]

The point about language is a good one.

If you tell people there was nothing before the big bang they assume 'you mean a vacuum of empty space'. And no it means there was not even empty space. There was literally nothing. It is very hard for the human mind to grasp such a concept.

There are many things we don't know yet, but one can't then argue 'the god of the gaps' in our knowledge. Meaning many people will assert 'well if we don't know then that mean it was god'. No, it means we don't know yet, just as we didn't know what caused disease 300 years ago.

We do know the universe is 13.7 billion years old and there are hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars.

To believe in any god, you have to believe it was all put in motion and allowed to continue on for 13.7 billion years to wait specifically for humans to arrive or be placed on the scene. And all those other galaxies, stars, and planets billions of light years away are just stage dressing so 13.7 billion years later we'd have something to look at.

That is quite a leap.

So with all of infinity to play with the universe is all of a definitive 13.7 billion years old? Nothing happened prior to that and once it all collapses in on itself, if it does, nothing will be happening afterward either..... Seems kinda' pointless to continue doesn't it?

And who's saying that God waited around for 13.7 billion years for some puny insignificant bipedal species to suddenly appear?

As for saying 'we don't know yet'.... You do realize what the definition of a miracle is don't you?

*****CHUCKLE*****

13.8 billion years meanwhile ...

 

[Toro]

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

God may have started the universe but God may not be the Christian God as you understand God to be.

For example, God may be like this

 

[zaangalewa]

... I am amused by those who think that God is a bearded white man sitting on a throne somewhere in outer space. ...

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Just because we might not know all the answers to the beginning of the universe does not mean that a god was responsible

In fact I believe there are many things in this universe that we will never understand simply because our minds are incapable of it much like my dog is incapable of doing algebra

Damn - my dog is a liar.

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

You want to hear something strange.

We could go to the very very beginning of Genesis and define God as that which created light.
.
Then the problem becomes proving every other trait the Book attributess to God is the same thing that created light. We never have to talk about what created the Universe because Genesis never claimed God created the Universe!

...and science holds the answer to all questions....

Then what kick started the universe?

After all we wouldn't want to violate one of Newton's three laws now would we?

If the scientific answer at this time is we don't know...

Then doesn't that mean a miracle occurred?

*****CHUCKLE*****

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

Genesis starts with God creating light. That is the primary description given to God.

Now where does it say in Genesis that God created space, time(God created the the sun and moon to keep time), energy or even the natural laws? It does not.

So what do we have? You are assigning traits to God that may not exist in God. You are assuming. Whatever created those things could be something else unrelated to the God of Genesis.

You have to prove that these other things are the same as the God of Genesis before claiming that the God of Genesis created those things.

Until then, it seems like you are arguing Polytheism and assume Monotheism to make things simple for yourself.

Something created space, time, energy, natural laws ... out of nothing. Energy builded matter. Matter started to live. So life itselve is maybe the message behind creation.

 

[zaangalewa]

... We don't actually know what started the universe, we can only speculate. So, saying it's God simply because you don't know isn't very smart.

Nothing started the universe because there was nothing before not even a before.

 

[zaangalewa]

It's called the big bang theory. Keyword is theory. Can not be proven, can never be proven. It can only be disproven.

It could be proven if it had any basis in reality.

What about if god created all possible realities - not only your reality - and sends unicorns as messengers from reality to reality?

 

[The Professor]

One of the most difficult things to define is creation. There are only two possibilities in all the world: (1) That which exists has always existed, although not necessarily in the same form, and (2) something can be created out of nothing. Both concepts are somehow intellectually unacceptable, but
logic dictates that one must be true. The former hypothesis at least has some scientific support.

The scientific consensus is that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed , although the two are interchangeable (first law of thermodynamics). For simplicity I will say that “things” can neither be created nor destroyed. Since things do exist but could not have been created, the logical conclusion is that everything which now exists has always existed, albeit in another form. Naturally, this reasoning applies to all things: every pound, every atom; everything which can be weighed or measured; anything which can be acted upon or which can act upon itself or anything else. This would include God.

From a purely scientific perspective, God could create nothing since everything has always been and always will be. However, God could transform that which always was and will be. The only question is whether there was anything outside of God for Him to act upon, or whether God simply transformed Himself. As mind boggling as it sounds, creation could be explained by the self-transformation of an eternal God. Actually, the self-transformation of God is the only explanation which harmonizes the scientific concept that things cannot be created from nothing and the Christian concept of God the creator of all.

 

[zaangalewa]

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

Gravity is a force, not a reaction to a force.

Looks like the known 4 forces came from one common force.

 

[The Professor]

what kick started the universe?

Gravity.

Gravity? Gravityis a reaction - not th Action.

Gravity is a force, not a reaction to a force.

Looks like the know 4 forces came from one common force.

Well, if Einstein couldn't find the Grand Unifying Theory (GUT) I doubt that I will. Hell, I have a problem finding my glasses and car keys.