Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)

[rylah]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

Why would you want to eliminate the Nakba which is, BTW, already illegal to commemorate in Israel?

What are these two sides he is talking about?

 

[rylah]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

Why would you want to eliminate the Nakba which is, BTW, already illegal to commemorate in Israel?

What are these two sides he is talking about?

Give me a break,
that's not what I'm saying.

I want Jews and Arabs to build the land together.

And here you are - after 10 years of time and energy to post anti-Israel material on a daily basis.
Don't live here, don't speak the language, not a side to the conflict, and never been here,

- yet always the first to jump against any notion of agreement and reconciliation.

Why are you so threatened by that,
it's not even your choice to make,
so tell me - what's in it for ya?

 

[Coyote]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

 

[rylah]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

 

[rylah]

6,000,000...

and just in 2 years they came to finish off the rest
of the bones and skin that were left of the Jewish nation.

Declaring it openly to be one of the most momentous massacres in history,
that this our land, her soil will be pouring with Jewish blood...

And here comes this crazy Jew and proposes a Sulha...

For a conflict of less casualties in 70 years,
than the homicide rate in some American cities in a decade.

Indeed a crazy Jew...if he ever wears his Peacnik glasses ever again,
his pro-Pali buddies will immediately remind him why the deserve nothing but defeat.

Thank you for clearing that up.
Won't repeat mistakes.

 

[Coyote]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

I think you took what I said wrong, do we need to be so touchy and volatile that we walk on eggs with every word? I am not saying the events themselves are comparable. Because thry are not. I apologize for that. I am TRYING to say, is that Nakbah has a deep meaning to the Palestinian people, as a formative event. It was their diaspora I suppose. What you suggest in your OP completely negates that meaning by commemerating the wrongs on BOTH sides. Mourning together in solodarity, is a good idea...but perhaps leave out the wrongs of both sides and leave that for a second day of reconciliation.

 

[rylah]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

I think you took what I said wrong, do we need to be so touchy and volatile that we walk on eggs with every word? I am not saying the events themselves are comparable. Because thry are not. I apologize for that. I am TRYING to say, is that Nakbah has a deep meaning to the Palestinian people, as a formative event. It was their diaspora I suppose. What you suggest in your OP completely negates that meaning by commemerating the wrongs on BOTH sides. Mourning together in solodarity, is a good idea...but perhaps leave out the wrongs of both sides and leave that for a second day of reconciliation.

I don't understand how the idea itself, negates commemorating the wrongs on both sides?
What negates it is the unwillingness to even entertain the notion reconciliation, a shared future.

Not the idea itself.

That's exactly what the Nakba is set for -
we commemorate to live, they commemorate to die.

It's a self fulfilling cycle, simple psychology.

Takes guts to choose life over perpetual victimhood and dysfunction.
We did - took fate in our hands - and for that reconciled with the entire world.

If they choose to make it their 'diaspora',
instead of moving forward to build what they never had - TOGETHER,
they might as well take a round of 2,000 years, just for the sake of educational purpose.
Maybe they actually need to walk in those shoes a little more to understand the worth of things.

 

[rylah]

I'm just saying - there will be plenty of Arabs for us to reconcile,
much more than those who today pretend to still care about Nakba.

They won't play the act forever, and will gladly move on,
from being hostage to a dysfunctional suicidal bunch,
who eventually cause them nothing but a headache.

They're less than 1% of Arabs, and they were less than 1% when they lost,
causing more problem than contribute to anyone... and they don't get it,
that when things turn real serious there won't be any more courtesy,
because there're much heavier things moving the middle east.

And boy will it be quick, because they wanna destroy Israel,
much more than to side with anyone or anything that makes sense.

And Iran, yeah, they won't make them among the first victims,
because they have 'magic bullets' that know how to differentiate...

Can't reconcile with SUICIDAL.

 

[Coyote]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

I think you took what I said wrong, do we need to be so touchy and volatile that we walk on eggs with every word? I am not saying the events themselves are comparable. Because thry are not. I apologize for that. I am TRYING to say, is that Nakbah has a deep meaning to the Palestinian people, as a formative event. It was their diaspora I suppose. What you suggest in your OP completely negates that meaning by commemerating the wrongs on BOTH sides. Mourning together in solodarity, is a good idea...but perhaps leave out the wrongs of both sides and leave that for a second day of reconciliation.

I don't understand how the idea itself, negates commemorating the wrongs on both sides?
What negates it is the unwillingness to even entertain the notion reconciliation, a shared future.

Not the idea itself.

That's exactly what the Nakba is set for -
we commemorate to live, they commemorate to die.

It's a self fulfilling cycle, simple psychology.

Takes guts to choose life over perpetual victimhood and dysfunction.
We did - took fate in our hands - and for that reconciled with the entire world.

If they choose to make it their 'diaspora',
instead of moving forward to build what they never had - TOGETHER,
they might as well take a round of 2,000 years, just for the sake of educational purpose.
Maybe they actually need to walk in those shoes a little more to understand the worth of things.

I owe you an apology.

I completely misread what you wrote. I realized it when I read this Response...then went back and slowly carefully reread your OP on a larger screen then my phone.

Replacing Memorial day with Sulhah for both to come together, in the way you state, is a wonderful idea. A unifying idea, and a way to move forward.

For whatever reason, I read it as replacing Nakbah, but Nakbah has nothing to do with it.

I like your idea a great deal...it has a healing quality.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)
⁜→ et al,

On the innocent face value of any "Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days" is not really the question in the "Nakba Commemoration." What is at issue is the "latent agenda" and the "issue of incitement" that is associated with this particular commemoration.

On the surface, the issue of the twin freedoms (assembly and speech) will always fold in favor of the Arab Palestinians. The twin freedoms are written in the "innocent frame" that they will not be used, designed or likely to provoke or encourage any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or justify criminal activity to avenge perceived wrongs. AND, of course, those that argue in favor of the Commemoration → will never suggest that there is a sinister purpose of endorsing the Commemoration (something other than that date which is to dredge-up grievances of the past).

What I see every time the Arab Palestinians bring forward the issue of what they term the "Nakba" (catastrophe) is the mental manipulation that attempts to control the fervor of the participants and twist the audience state of mind to incite violence. Such events are nothing more than a tool used by the Hostile Arab Palestines to influence the will of the audience through the use of deceptive techniques as a backdrop for certain speech to reach the threshold of incitement to hatred.

To off-set, such outcomes, in which the Arab Palestinians can exploit the events - Articles 19 and 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) attempts to establish limits on permissible (and that which is not permissible) speech. This, in the broader sense, would include the totality of the "Nakba Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days."

Article 19​

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:​

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;​

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals.​

​

Article 20 ​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

Again, those that advocate for the Nakba Events will argue that there is no reason for concern. In which case, they should have no trouble meeting any oversight involving the "Rights of the People" protected by the CCPR (supra).

Just My Thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

I think you took what I said wrong, do we need to be so touchy and volatile that we walk on eggs with every word? I am not saying the events themselves are comparable. Because thry are not. I apologize for that. I am TRYING to say, is that Nakbah has a deep meaning to the Palestinian people, as a formative event. It was their diaspora I suppose. What you suggest in your OP completely negates that meaning by commemerating the wrongs on BOTH sides. Mourning together in solodarity, is a good idea...but perhaps leave out the wrongs of both sides and leave that for a second day of reconciliation.

I don't understand how the idea itself, negates commemorating the wrongs on both sides?
What negates it is the unwillingness to even entertain the notion reconciliation, a shared future.

Not the idea itself.

That's exactly what the Nakba is set for -
we commemorate to live, they commemorate to die.

It's a self fulfilling cycle, simple psychology.

Takes guts to choose life over perpetual victimhood and dysfunction.
We did - took fate in our hands - and for that reconciled with the entire world.

If they choose to make it their 'diaspora',
instead of moving forward to build what they never had - TOGETHER,
they might as well take a round of 2,000 years, just for the sake of educational purpose.
Maybe they actually need to walk in those shoes a little more to understand the worth of things.

I owe you an apology.

I completely misread what you wrote. I realized it when I read this Response...then went back and slowly carefully reread your OP on a larger screen then my phone.

Replacing Memorial day with Sulhah for both to come together, in the way you state, is a wonderful idea. A unifying idea, and a way to move forward.

For whatever reason, I read it as replacing Nakbah, but Nakbah has nothing to do with it.

I like your idea a great deal...it has a healing quality.

Owhh... ok really, thank You.

Frankly, thought I kinda went off the rails initially,
because aside from the idea itself being emotionally loaded, it's a very intense emotionally for me personally, and clearly I'm not as contained as Rudy...so some fuses went off. And I think it's natural, that it kinda began off of a wrong foot, reminds us that we are not dealing with abstracts,
but real people, their families...human story.

So I think at least just that already taught, reminded me something essential -
that the context is essentially more human than ideological or political,
easy to detach from that part, with conflict about abstract ideologies.

There's some followup points that I'd like to share and discuss later,
other conclusions I've reached thinking more about what Rudy said, and this whole format created by Weinerb, that maybe has to do with more fundamental problems of communication, especially now we see experiencing on a larger scale, that is more fundamental and common to us all, than necessarily just being limited to this specific conflict. And some more some other more specific conclusions and material that I think will help move the discussion further constructively.

Just didn't want to leave this unanswered for now.

But before that,
I want to enjoy my Shabat, recharge spiritually,
eat something good, and return with a clearer head...

Until then, have a good weekend

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)
⁜→ et al,

On the innocent face value of any "Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days" is not really the question in the "Nakba Commemoration." What is at issue is the "latent agenda" and the "issue of incitement" that is associated with this particular commemoration.

On the surface, the issue of the twin freedoms (assembly and speech) will always fold in favor of the Arab Palestinians. The twin freedoms are written in the "innocent frame" that they will not be used, designed or likely to provoke or encourage any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or justify criminal activity to avenge perceived wrongs. AND, of course, those that argue in favor of the Commemoration → will never suggest that there is a sinister purpose of endorsing the Commemoration (something other than that date which is to dredge-up grievances of the past).

What I see every time the Arab Palestinians bring forward the issue of what they term the "Nakba" (catastrophe) is the mental manipulation that attempts to control the fervor of the participants and twist the audience state of mind to incite violence. Such events are nothing more than a tool used by the Hostile Arab Palestines to influence the will of the audience through the use of deceptive techniques as a backdrop for certain speech to reach the threshold of incitement to hatred.

To off-set, such outcomes, in which the Arab Palestinians can exploit the events - Articles 19 and 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) attempts to establish limits on permissible (and that which is not permissible) speech. This, in the broader sense, would include the totality of the "Nakba Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days."

Article 19​

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:​

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;​

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals.​

​

Article 20 ​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

Again, those that advocate for the Nakba Events will argue that there is no reason for concern. In which case, they should have no trouble meeting any oversight involving the "Rights of the People" protected by the CCPR (supra).

Just My Thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

So, history is incitement?

No justice, no peace!

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Nakba is just a stupid, made up term invented by propagandists long after the fact to try to create the impression that Arab aggression was actually some sort of victimization.

In 1948, there was no "Palestinian" people and no "Nakba" -- just Arabs and the war they initiated. . By1968, however, voila! -- a brand new people called "Palestinian" replete with their phony tale of woe called "Nakba".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Nakba is just a stupid, made up term invented by propagandists long after the fact to try to create the impression that Arab aggression was actually some sort of victimization.

In 1948, there was no "Palestinian" people and no "Nakba" -- just Arabs and the war they initiated. . By1968, however, voila! -- a brand new people called "Palestinian" replete with their phony tale of woe called "Nakba".

See the Palestine citizenship order of 1925.

 

[Mindful]

In 1948, there was no "Palestinian" people and no "Nakba" -- just Arabs and the war they initiated. . By1968, however, voila! -- a brand new people called "Palestinian" replete with their phony tale of woe called "Nakba".

I was wondering that.

You said it for me.

 

[Coyote]

Fist of all I want to repeat:

Usually all these talks are just choirs of opportunists cynically bandwagoning on the conflict,
for their own benefit of position, attention and income. All that BDS, Peace Now none sense...

But some talks will go historic for being REAL and MATURE.



(Comment)

So obviously, there's already another conversation about this video,
but I wanted to specifically entertain a different topic Rudy mentioned.

For the sake of exercise:

since most here are not actually involved in the conflict,
let's try to detach from personal political opinions, and imagine a utopic reality where both sides try to look for ways to come together after agreeing on fundamentally to build the country together.

Let's put aside the option that 'from the river to the sea' there will be anything but Israel,
or that it will be anything but the Jewish Nation state, just put that aside for a moment.

Now context:

SULHAH (forgiveness in Arabic)
is a traditional Arabian tribal ceremony,
that involves conflicting sides gathering for one goal - move forward.

It's a very emotional ceremony where both sides must hear each other's stories,
really immerse with them in that, showing solidarity and respect, to later seal a social pact.

Now this is usually a one time ceremony.
But I was thinking more in the direction of a NATIONAL DAY.

What do I mean? As Rudy was talking about:
the Nakba day is commemorated intentionally on Israel's day of Independence,
the day before that is Israel's Memorial day for fallen soldiers and victims of terror.

Presuming that we've left the notion that any of the sides has to go,
as mentioned above, both comprise the wider Israeli society.

What if we change the Memorial day to national Sulha day,
to commemorate losses on both sides?
Next day celebrate Independence...

How bout that as an idea?
Let's see who agrees and disagrees.

I have mixed feelings here.

First, by removing Nakbah, you are denying the Palestinians their history and their right to remember it, by mixing it with "losses on both sides". Imagine if we did that with Yom HaShoah. Insisted that it commemorate everyone's losses in that horrific event.

A people have the right to commemorate their history as they see fit...not as others see fit.

But here's a thought. A two-day event. One is Nakbah...the second is forgiveness and reconciliation. Wouldn't that work?

And you still expect me to address you respectfully
after you've compared it to the Shoah?

No, you just had didn't ya?

I think an apology would be in place,
before, and if we continue.

Because the topic is important,
and deserves a decent discussion.
That's why I specifically chose the - Memorial day and not Yom HaShoah,
and asked people to put away their political opinions, and just examine the idea
specifically in THAT framework that I've mentioned, to be able to examine it on itself,
without stepping on these clear landmines.

If the Nakba day was really to mourn,
rather than to incite, then why can't we mourn together?

What better commemoration than LIFE,
building more LIFE... TOGETHER?

That's what I suggest~!

And you call that 'remove', 'eliminate'....'Shoah'...NUTS

I think you took what I said wrong, do we need to be so touchy and volatile that we walk on eggs with every word? I am not saying the events themselves are comparable. Because thry are not. I apologize for that. I am TRYING to say, is that Nakbah has a deep meaning to the Palestinian people, as a formative event. It was their diaspora I suppose. What you suggest in your OP completely negates that meaning by commemerating the wrongs on BOTH sides. Mourning together in solodarity, is a good idea...but perhaps leave out the wrongs of both sides and leave that for a second day of reconciliation.

I don't understand how the idea itself, negates commemorating the wrongs on both sides?
What negates it is the unwillingness to even entertain the notion reconciliation, a shared future.

Not the idea itself.

That's exactly what the Nakba is set for -
we commemorate to live, they commemorate to die.

It's a self fulfilling cycle, simple psychology.

Takes guts to choose life over perpetual victimhood and dysfunction.
We did - took fate in our hands - and for that reconciled with the entire world.

If they choose to make it their 'diaspora',
instead of moving forward to build what they never had - TOGETHER,
they might as well take a round of 2,000 years, just for the sake of educational purpose.
Maybe they actually need to walk in those shoes a little more to understand the worth of things.

I owe you an apology.

I completely misread what you wrote. I realized it when I read this Response...then went back and slowly carefully reread your OP on a larger screen then my phone.

Replacing Memorial day with Sulhah for both to come together, in the way you state, is a wonderful idea. A unifying idea, and a way to move forward.

For whatever reason, I read it as replacing Nakbah, but Nakbah has nothing to do with it.

I like your idea a great deal...it has a healing quality.

Owhh... ok really, thank You.

Frankly, thought I kinda went off the rails initially,
because aside from the idea itself being emotionally loaded, it's a very intense emotionally for me personally, and clearly I'm not as contained as Rudy...so some fuses went off. And I think it's natural, that it kinda began off of a wrong foot, reminds us that we are not dealing with abstracts,
but real people, their families...human story.

So I think at least just that already taught, reminded me something essential -
that the context is essentially more human than ideological or political,
easy to detach from that part, with conflict about abstract ideologies.

There's some followup points that I'd like to share and discuss later,
other conclusions I've reached thinking more about what Rudy said, and this whole format created by Weinerb, that maybe has to do with more fundamental problems of communication, especially now we see experiencing on a larger scale, that is more fundamental and common to us all, than necessarily just being limited to this specific conflict. And some more some other more specific conclusions and material that I think will help move the discussion further constructively.

Just didn't want to leave this unanswered for now.

But before that,
I want to enjoy my Shabat, recharge spiritually,
eat something good, and return with a clearer head...

Until then, have a good weekend

And to you too, recharge and enjoy the weekend

 

[Coyote]

RE: Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)
⁜→ et al,

On the innocent face value of any "Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days" is not really the question in the "Nakba Commemoration." What is at issue is the "latent agenda" and the "issue of incitement" that is associated with this particular commemoration.

On the surface, the issue of the twin freedoms (assembly and speech) will always fold in favor of the Arab Palestinians. The twin freedoms are written in the "innocent frame" that they will not be used, designed or likely to provoke or encourage any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or justify criminal activity to avenge perceived wrongs. AND, of course, those that argue in favor of the Commemoration → will never suggest that there is a sinister purpose of endorsing the Commemoration (something other than that date which is to dredge-up grievances of the past).

What I see every time the Arab Palestinians bring forward the issue of what they term the "Nakba" (catastrophe) is the mental manipulation that attempts to control the fervor of the participants and twist the audience state of mind to incite violence. Such events are nothing more than a tool used by the Hostile Arab Palestines to influence the will of the audience through the use of deceptive techniques as a backdrop for certain speech to reach the threshold of incitement to hatred.

To off-set, such outcomes, in which the Arab Palestinians can exploit the events - Articles 19 and 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) attempts to establish limits on permissible (and that which is not permissible) speech. This, in the broader sense, would include the totality of the "Nakba Celebratory Assemblies" and "Remembrance Days."

Article 19​

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:​

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;​

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals.​

​

Article 20 ​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

Again, those that advocate for the Nakba Events will argue that there is no reason for concern. In which case, they should have no trouble meeting any oversight involving the "Rights of the People" protected by the CCPR (supra).

Just My Thought.

Most Respectfully,
R

Sans criminal activity or violence, they have every right to commemorate a defining moment in their people's history. I don't see that being denied to others, why deny it to the Palestinians?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Sans criminal activity or violence, they have every right to commemorate a defining moment in their people's history. I don't see that being denied to others, why deny it to the Palestinians?

(COMMENT)

See Article 19 and 20 of the CCPR, supra.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Idea: Nakba day turns Sulhah day (poll)
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Sans criminal activity or violence, they have every right to commemorate a defining moment in their people's history. I don't see that being denied to others, why deny it to the Palestinians?

(COMMENT)

See Article 19 and 20 of the CCPR, supra.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, are there any particular Issues you would like to discuss?