I will not Bow!

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine had internationally recognized borders from 1922 to 1948. Right up until the day the Mandate was ended.

Another Israeli lie.

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

Notice that this was the year after the end of the mandate.

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, you cant even provide a map entitled PALESTINE that shows it with international borders

The only thing you have is a PROPOSED PARTITION PLAN map with proposed borders

 

[Kondor3]

Palestine had internationally recognized borders from 1922 to 1948. Right up until the day the Mandate was ended.

Depends upon one's point of view.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Lebanon existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Syria existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Transjordan existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Egypt existed on May 15, 1948.

No such widely internationally and formally recognized, autonmous and sovereign Palestine existed on May 15, 1948.

What existed in Old Palestine at the expiration of the British Mandate was a political vacuum bordered by legitimate and sovereign states.

The Mediterranean Sea and the borders of those preexisting sovereign states merely acted as the boundary lines for the maximum extent of the political vacuum.

The Jews of Old Palestine jumped-in quickly and claimed some of the land associated with that political vacuum as the basis for their own independent State.

Subsequent events made their claim a Reality.

Anyone not recognizing that Reality does, indeed, have recourse.

They may appeal the decision of history by force of arms.

 

[Indeependent]

They declared independence on territory already declared independent by Israel

Remember this?

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory,

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

YOu're bringing up armistice cease fire lines, which are not official borders, yes. That has nothing to do with that Im talking about.

Again:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

First of all, you ARE dealing with a brain that can't the fact that things change in life.

Second of all, if it wasn't for the few of us responding to these childish posters, nobody would be paying attention at all.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine..."

That's the gist of it.

Sometimes, secession doesn't work out.

Somtimes it does, as it the case with Israel, in relation to Old Palestine.

And, given that they were seceding from a political vacuum, nobody who counted cared very much.

 

[Victory67]

Tinmore, you cant even provide a map entitled PALESTINE that shows it with international borders

The only thing you have is a PROPOSED PARTITION PLAN map with proposed borders

The Zionists accepted the borders for The State of Israel. They considered the borders to be legit.

 

[Kondor3]

"..."

A map of an administrative region which dissolved upon the expiration of the Mandate.

A map showing the borders of autonomous and sovereign states, surrounding what was to become a political vacuum upon the expiration of the Mandate; a vacuum from which the Jews of Old Palestine detached themselves and broke away, on that very same day.

An intelligent and forward-thinking act which the Palestinians have been kicking themselves about for 66 years, for not doing the same thing, the same day.

You snooze, you lose.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine had internationally recognized borders from 1922 to 1948. Right up until the day the Mandate was ended.

Depends upon one's point of view.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Lebanon existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Syria existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Transjordan existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Egypt existed on May 15, 1948.

No such widely internationally and formally recognized, autonmous and sovereign Palestine existed on May 15, 1948.

What existed in Old Palestine at the expiration of the British Mandate was a political vacuum bordered by legitimate and sovereign states.

The Mediterranean Sea and the borders of those preexisting sovereign states merely acted as the boundary lines for the maximum extent of the political vacuum.

The Jews of Old Palestine jumped-in quickly and claimed some of the land associated with that political vacuum as the basis for their own independent State.

Subsequent events made their claim a Reality.

Anyone not recognizing that Reality does, indeed, have recourse.

They may appeal the decision of history by force of arms.

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

84To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

British Mandate was a political vacuum bordered by legitimate and sovereign states.

A vacuum with citizens defined by law. And international borders too.

Interesting legal concept.

 

[Kondor3]

Tinmore, you cant even provide a map entitled PALESTINE that shows it with international borders

The only thing you have is a PROPOSED PARTITION PLAN map with proposed borders

The Zionists accepted the borders for The State of Israel. They considered the borders to be legit.

They considered the borders of the sovereign states surrounding them to be legit, and they left something of Old Palestine for the Arabs as well, as much in keeping with the 1947 Partition proposal as was practicable after some months of fighting had already altered the internal boundaries between population groups.

 

[Kondor3]

Palestine had internationally recognized borders from 1922 to 1948. Right up until the day the Mandate was ended.

Depends upon one's point of view.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Lebanon existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Syria existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Transjordan existed on May 15, 1948.

A widely internationally and formally recognized, autonomous and sovereign Egypt existed on May 15, 1948.

No such widely internationally and formally recognized, autonmous and sovereign Palestine existed on May 15, 1948.

What existed in Old Palestine at the expiration of the British Mandate was a political vacuum bordered by legitimate and sovereign states.

The Mediterranean Sea and the borders of those preexisting sovereign states merely acted as the boundary lines for the maximum extent of the political vacuum.

The Jews of Old Palestine jumped-in quickly and claimed some of the land associated with that political vacuum as the basis for their own independent State.

Subsequent events made their claim a Reality.

Anyone not recognizing that Reality does, indeed, have recourse.

They may appeal the decision of history by force of arms.

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

84To qualify for Palestinian nationality by virtue of this paragraph, the person had to be: (1) a Turkish subject, or citizen; and (2) habitually resident in Palestine. While Palestinian nationality in accordance with international law (the Treaty of Lausanne) was created, as shown above, on 6 August 1924, the same nationality was effectively created on 1 August 1925 based on domestic law (the Palestinian Citizenship Order).

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

British Mandate was a political vacuum bordered by legitimate and sovereign states.

A vacuum with citizens defined by law. And international borders too.

Interesting legal concept.

Yes, isn't it?

Everyone's citizenship evaporated at Midnight on Expiration Day.

There was no polity thereafter within that political vacuum to which citizenship could be attributed.

Oh, there were plenty of RESIDENTS of the region.

But no CITIZENS.

There was no polity to be citizens OF.

As to borders, none existed, at Midnight on Expiration Day.

At least not from the Vacuum side (Old Palestine).

Merely the legitimate borders of sovereign states OUTSIDE the vacuum.

 

[Hossfly]

"...The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue."

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

Tinmore, why don't you write a letter to the PA and have them send you the current status and end all this folderol.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, you cant even provide a map entitled PALESTINE that shows it with international borders

The only thing you have is a PROPOSED PARTITION PLAN map with proposed borders

The Zionists accepted the borders for The State of Israel. They considered the borders to be legit.

They considered the borders of the sovereign states surrounding them to be legit, and they left something of Old Palestine for the Arabs as well, as much in keeping with the 1947 Partition proposal as was practicable after some months of fighting had already altered the internal boundaries between population groups.

Do you have some links for all that?

 

[Kondor3]

The Zionists accepted the borders for The State of Israel. They considered the borders to be legit.

They considered the borders of the sovereign states surrounding them to be legit, and they left something of Old Palestine for the Arabs as well, as much in keeping with the 1947 Partition proposal as was practicable after some months of fighting had already altered the internal boundaries between population groups.

Do you have some links for all that?

Sure.

Any credible hybrid political and military narrative of the Arab-Israeli wars of the 1947-1949 timeframe and the outcome.

One need look no further than the Real World outcome to infer what I said, above, and to recognize it as operative accuracy and truth.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They considered the borders of the sovereign states surrounding them to be legit, and they left something of Old Palestine for the Arabs as well, as much in keeping with the 1947 Partition proposal as was practicable after some months of fighting had already altered the internal boundaries between population groups.

Do you have some links for all that?

Sure.

Any credible hybrid political and military narrative of the Arab-Israeli wars of the 1947-1949 timeframe and the outcome.

One need look no further than the Real World outcome to infer what I said, above, and to recognize it as operative accuracy and truth.

I will take actual documents over say so.

 

[aris2chat]

Do you want me to chose one and prove I am right or do you want to chose one and prove I am wrong?

Youve already been proven wrong on all of them, but you refuse to acknowledge that even though the evidence is in front of you. Go ahead and choose

In most of these I would have to prove a negative so I will pick an easy one.

First Declaration of Independence of the State of Palestine - 1948 *
By virtue of the natural and historical right of the Palestinian Arab people to
freedom and independence, which sacred right was sacrificed for with blood,
defended by noble martyrs, preserved against encroachment by Zionist and colonial
powers, we, members of the Palestine National Council, which is meeting in Ghazzat
Hashim I on this twenty-eighth of Dhu'l-Qa'da 1367 A.H., corresponding to the first
of October 1948 A.D., hereby declare the full and complete independence of all
Palestine, which is bordered by Syria and Lebanon to the north, Syria and the East
Bank of Jordan to the east, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and Egypt to the
south. [It will be] a free, democratic, and sovereign state in which all citizens will
exercise their freedom and rights, and it will join its sister Arab states in building
the Arab heritage and serving human civilization. We shall be guided by the values
of our nation and its glorious history, and are determined to preserve and defend our
independence.
Almighty God has spoken the truth.
Signed
[Signatures of 65 Palestinian representatives]

Palestine Yearbook of International Law, 4 (1987-88), 294-96.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

Palestine tries to declare a state on land under Jordanian control during a truce and reaction to the jurisdiction ordinance.

 

[Phoenall]

Too bad the Arabs didn't issue this on May 14, 1948 (the day the Jews declared their Independence and established their claim), eh?

Rather like coming to the Oklahoma Land Rush four months after the starting-gun had fired...

Like most Arab-Palestinian gestures, a Day Late and a Shekel Short.

Too bad they didn't have their s--t together in time to do 'em any good, eh?

You snooze, you lose.

True story.

========================================

...

The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue.

Are you saying that Israel was not a nation at this time and that the UN had not recognised the fact ?

 

[Phoenall]

In most of these I would have to prove a negative so I will pick an easy one.

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988. That is the official one.

https://www.google.ca/#q=palestinian+declaration+of+independence

EVERY site you will find when you type in Palestinian DOI is from the 1988 one.

Let me ask you, if they declared independence in 1948, on what land did they do it on?

hereby declare the full and complete independence of all
Palestine, which is bordered by Syria and Lebanon to the north, Syria and the East
Bank of Jordan to the east, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and Egypt to the
south.

Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?

They had none until they declared independence and set up a government. But they tried to take Israel away from the Jews by making a declaration under duress and while under the influence of a foreign power.

 

[Phoenall]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Palestine had borders from 1922 to 1947.

And the USA recognized the West Bank as Arab Palestine, from 1949 to 1967.

Who set those borders in place and then drew an official map declaring that the borders of the nation of Palestine are as shown on the map. Care to produce a link giving all the information and map so we can see whish NEONAZI JEW HATRED site you are being fed your disinformation from.


For the record the borders of old Palestine as set out in the mandate included Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, west bank, gaza, part of Egypt and part of Saudi Arabia. Don't see any problems arising out of the land being given to migrant royal princes from Saudi Arabia and their followers who expelled the indigenous arabs in the process.

 

[Victory67]

Who set those borders in place and then drew an official map declaring that the borders of the nation of Palestine are as shown on the map. Care to produce a link giving all the information and map so we can see whish NEONAZI JEW HATRED site you are being fed your disinformation from.

For the record the borders of old Palestine as set out in the mandate included Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, west bank, gaza, part of Egypt and part of Saudi Arabia. Don't see any problems arising out of the land being given to migrant royal princes from Saudi Arabia and their followers who expelled the indigenous arabs in the process.

Who drew the borders of Palestine? The League of Nations. You know, the same guys who approved the Mandate for Palestine which allowed Jews to make a homeland there?

 

[Phoenall]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Palestine had borders from 1922 to 1947.

And the USA recognized the West Bank as Arab Palestine, from 1949 to 1967.

WHY DO YOU LIE WHEN YOU KNOW I WILL CATCH YOU OUT.

America had no dealings with the west bank and did not recognise it until 1967

Palestine?United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US plans and considerations of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip began already in June 1967, immediately following the Six Day War.
Prior to the Yom Kippur War in October 1973, the US government considered The PLO and Fatah under Yasser Arafat's leadership as a terrorist organization, and as a result did not support Palestinian aspirations at the UN,[3] and US diplomats in the Middle East were explicitly ordered by the State Department never to make any contacts with Arafat or any representative on his behalf.[