I will not Bow!

[P F Tinmore]

Too bad the Arabs didn't issue this on May 14, 1948 (the day the Jews declared their Independence and established their claim), eh?

Rather like coming to the Oklahoma Land Rush four months after the starting-gun had fired...

Like most Arab-Palestinian gestures, a Day Late and a Shekel Short.

Too bad they didn't have their s--t together in time to do 'em any good, eh?

You snooze, you lose.

True story.

========================================

...

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue.

 

[toastman]

Do you want me to chose one and prove I am right or do you want to chose one and prove I am wrong?

Youve already been proven wrong on all of them, but you refuse to acknowledge that even though the evidence is in front of you. Go ahead and choose

In most of these I would have to prove a negative so I will pick an easy one.

First Declaration of Independence of the State of Palestine - 1948 *
By virtue of the natural and historical right of the Palestinian Arab people to
freedom and independence, which sacred right was sacrificed for with blood,
defended by noble martyrs, preserved against encroachment by Zionist and colonial
powers, we, members of the Palestine National Council, which is meeting in Ghazzat
Hashim I on this twenty-eighth of Dhu'l-Qa'da 1367 A.H., corresponding to the first
of October 1948 A.D., hereby declare the full and complete independence of all
Palestine, which is bordered by Syria and Lebanon to the north, Syria and the East
Bank of Jordan to the east, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and Egypt to the
south. [It will be] a free, democratic, and sovereign state in which all citizens will
exercise their freedom and rights, and it will join its sister Arab states in building
the Arab heritage and serving human civilization. We shall be guided by the values
of our nation and its glorious history, and are determined to preserve and defend our
independence.
Almighty God has spoken the truth.
Signed
[Signatures of 65 Palestinian representatives]

Palestine Yearbook of International Law, 4 (1987-88), 294-96.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988. That is the official one.

https://www.google.ca/#q=palestinian+declaration+of+independence

EVERY site you will find when you type in Palestinian DOI is from the 1988 one.

Let me ask you, if they declared independence in 1948, on what land did they do it on?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Youve already been proven wrong on all of them, but you refuse to acknowledge that even though the evidence is in front of you. Go ahead and choose

In most of these I would have to prove a negative so I will pick an easy one.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988. That is the official one.

https://www.google.ca/#q=palestinian+declaration+of+independence

EVERY site you will find when you type in Palestinian DOI is from the 1988 one.

Let me ask you, if they declared independence in 1948, on what land did they do it on?

hereby declare the full and complete independence of all
Palestine, which is bordered by Syria and Lebanon to the north, Syria and the East
Bank of Jordan to the east, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and Egypt to the
south.

Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue."

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

 

[toastman]

In most of these I would have to prove a negative so I will pick an easy one.

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988. That is the official one.

https://www.google.ca/#q=palestinian+declaration+of+independence

EVERY site you will find when you type in Palestinian DOI is from the 1988 one.

Let me ask you, if they declared independence in 1948, on what land did they do it on?

hereby declare the full and complete independence of all
Palestine, which is bordered by Syria and Lebanon to the north, Syria and the East
Bank of Jordan to the east, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and Egypt to the
south.

Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?

Nice duck.

The Palestinians attempted to declare independence on territory ALREADY DECLARED INDEPENDENT. The proof is in the dates

A 5 years old could understand that.

 

[Indeependent]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

 

[toastman]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

 

[Victory67]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Palestine had borders from 1922 to 1947.

And the USA recognized the West Bank as Arab Palestine, from 1949 to 1967.

 

[toastman]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Palestine had borders from 1922 to 1947.

And the USA recognized the West Bank as Arab Palestine, from 1949 to 1967.

What about in 1948 ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue."

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

 

[Victory67]

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Palestine had borders from 1922 to 1947.

And the USA recognized the West Bank as Arab Palestine, from 1949 to 1967.

What about in 1948 ?

What about it?

 

[toastman]

"...The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue."

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

They declared independence on territory already declared independent by Israel

Remember this?

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"Did Israel's declared borders clash with the Palestinian's?"

Was that in 1948, 1988 or 210088?

Actually, that's another Tinmore lie, as the Palestinians had NO BORDERS

Another Israeli lie. Look up international boundaries and find them on this map of Palestine.

 

[toastman]

How many times does this need to be repeated to you ?

 

[toastman]

It even says PROPOSED BY THE AD HOC COMMITTEE FOR THE PALESTINE QUESTION

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Palestinians did not declare independence on any Israeli territory so I don't see where timing is an issue."

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

The Palestinians HAD no borders.

The sovereign States which surrounded them had 'borders'.

Politically speaking, south of the border of Lebanon, southwest of the border of Syria, West of the border of Transjordan, north-northeast of the border of Egypt, and to the east of the waters of the Mediterranean, lay an unincorporated, unchartered region long identified by the nominal label 'Palestine'. Politically speaking, this was a vacuum... a non-entity... having no existence nor rights attributable to it by any practical gauge.

One of the groups of residents (the Jews of Old Palestine) bundled-together the lands they controlled and declared themselves to be a sovereign State, independent of their neighbors, in much the same fashion as a gaggle of residents of an area of unincorporated land, will coalesce and declare themselves a village or town or township, using some or all of the unincorporated lands that they control.

Happens all the time.

There is no substitute for preparedness.

And the sad and glaringly obvious truth of the matter is that the Palestinians simply did not have their act together, and paid the forfeit.

 

[toastman]

I feel like I'm debating with a little kid. This is ridiculous. Everything has to be explained to Tinmore like 10 times

 

[Victory67]

Palestine had internationally recognized borders from 1922 to 1948. Right up until the day the Mandate was ended.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The wording of the September 22, 1948 communique from the Arabs, stipulates Palestine (all of Old Palestine) in its entirety and within its previously defined borders (not that it had any to call its own, given that it never existed as a polity, prior to that time).

Given that the Jews of Old Palestine had seized and claimed a portion of Old Palestine by which to comprise their own new State of Israel, by the time of the September 22, 1948 Arab Declaration, a sizable percentage of the land referenced therein was no longer theirs to claim.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel - built on the bleached bones of part of Old Palestine.

Victory on the battlefield (being defined as holding off the Arab League and keeping the lands they had been holding) reaffirmed such Jewish claims.

Acceptance of this fait accompli by the UN in 1949 lent a considerable air of legitimacy to such a stance.

The passage of time has affirmed the stance as the operative state of affairs amongst those living in the Real World.

Jewish-owned lands and others seized in brawls and fighting with the Arabs became, de facto, the lands of the new State of Israel

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

They declared independence on territory already declared independent by Israel

Remember this?

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory,

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

 

[toastman]

Indeed.

The Palestinians declared independence inside their long held international borders.

There was no clash.

They declared independence on territory already declared independent by Israel

Remember this?

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory,

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

YOu're bringing up armistice cease fire lines, which are not official borders, yes. That has nothing to do with that Im talking about.

Again:

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.