I will not Bow!

[Phoenall]

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

I'm talking about 1948. Show me that their declaration of independence was recognized.
BTW, didn't they declare independence on territory that Israel already declared independence on? Yes, they did, making it null !

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988, THAT was the one that was recognized. This is yet another issue which has been explained to you in detail, that you wish to ignore.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] with limited recognition in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

Palestine was recognized by five other states but that really doesn't matter.

Yet was not recognised by the UN until last year, which tells its own story. Just as Israel being recognised by the UN within minutes of having declared itself a nation on the land bequeathed to it by the Mandate and UN. Just as Jordan was also created along with Syria and Iraq.

The 5 other states did not have the power to designate Palestine as a state and had to wait for UN approval before doing so. This came about in 2012 when they were granted NON MEMBER observer status, the relevant part is highlighted so you cant twist it round and say they are full members of the UN.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Interesting. I was not aware of that

Go to the PMW website. They ***** about that all the time.

Where? Show me

Palestinian maps erase Israel | PMW

 

[Phoenall]

Palestine was recognized by five other states but that really doesn't matter.

Ok, but this doesn't change the FACT that the Declaration of independence of Palestine that was official and recognized was in 1988, as seen in my post

Recognition is political. It really doesn't matter.

Israel still does not recognize Palestine. It is a political not legal position.

Wrong as Israel recognised the rights of Palestine as this shows

In 1993, in the Oslo Accords, Israel acknowledged the PLO negotiating team as "representing the Palestinian people", in return for the PLO recognizing Israel's right to exist in peace, acceptance of UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and its rejection of "violence and terrorism".[23] As a result, in 1994 the PLO established the Palestinian National Authority (PNA or PA) territorial administration, that exercises some governmental functions[iii] in parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as this shows Palestine still refuses to recognise Israel

Abbas: We won't recognize Israel as Jewish state


Palestinian leader defiant ahead of UN statehood bid, urges international community to back off; 'Don’t order us to recognize Jewish state,' he says. Foreign Minister says world must tell Abbas state cannot come at Israel's expense

 

[toastman]

Go to the PMW website. They ***** about that all the time.

Where? Show me

Palestinian maps erase Israel | PMW

Where does it show them complaining about there being no cease fire lines?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes it is.

That is a University of Texas map.

(COMMENT)

But it is still the one the Arab League uses on their site.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is another one of those things that I don't see any evidence.

The borders, nationality, and citizenship of Palestine were all set up while it was still under the Ottoman Empire. It was all de facto until the legal end of the Empire at the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne then they became de jure.

(COMMENT)

How do you derive this. Clearly, in 1920, Palestine was undefined in the Treaty of Sevres. There was no precursor government established by the Ottoman or Turkish governments. There was no mention of Palestine in the Treaty of Lausanne, or the autonomy of self-governance of any of the Mandate Territories in the Middle East.

If anyone is grasping at straws, it is not me.

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course you don't see any evidence. You won't find it in Israeli propaganda.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Wrong again as the author claims that the details are present in the Treaty of Lausanne, which clearly says no such thing.

 

[Phoenall]

Where are the documents showing Israel acquiring any land?

How many times does it have to be explained to you that acquiring land has nothing to do with this. He explained it VERY CLEARLY that the Mandate allowed Israel to declare independence in the territory allotted to her in the partition plan.
You know he's right, but you're just playing games right now.

Where did YOU read that Israel had to acquire land for it to declare independence ??? Link???

The partition plan flopped. It didn't happen.

Only for the HoAP who wanted everything as commanded in the Koran, now they want to turn the clocks back 65 years and have another go.

 

[Phoenall]

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

And once again, you post something that has NOTHING TO DO with my question.

Try again

Where is Israel's defined territory?

UN res 181 partition plan sets out the starting point for the borders, all there in black and white. Further to this the UN res 242 sets out the need for negotiations to allow for mutual agreement of future borders.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, this is an understanding over time.

They did not see that their stupid plan was going to be a hundred year long disaster?

What planet were they on?

(COMMENT)

The Partition Plan was not even a consideration in the 1920's when the Mandate came into effect. It was just the Balfour Declaration aims that were on the table.

There was a general consensus that, given time, the two cultures, each with nationalistic aspirations, would be civilized enough to overcome their differences. The development of the Palestinian Black Hand (an Arab Killing Machine with Islamic fundamentalism behind it) partly countered by the Haganah [local defense watch at Kibbutz level govern by policy of havlagah (restraint)] and later shed the splinter groups of Irgun and Lehi (each more offensive oriented than it predecessor), flared-up at a staggering rate.

However, it was the post-War (II) Palestine that really demonstrated the the extent to which the level of violence was to expand. And after what the Jewish Community had just gone through in Europe, when Isa Nakhleh (Arab Higher Committee) threatened a second Holocaust in 1948 ("The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.") the defenses of the Jewish People exploded in a flash of lightening. There was no coming back; the Jewish saw this as a decisive moment in the survival of their culture; live or die at the hands of the Arab.

Each side believed they had a perfect justification for the conflict. In another Century, maybe we'll know.

Today, the Arab Palestinian claims they are the victim of Apartheid, Genocide, Occupation and State terrorism. But remember the threat the sequence of events.

• WWII and Holocaust ends 1945: 6 Million Jews perish.
• Palestine 1948: Then the AHC makes the Solemn oath: "first to wipe them out — man, woman and child."

If for no other cause, --- what would you expect the outcome to be?

Did the Hostile Arab Palestinian exercise sound judgment and implement actions toward a peaceful solution?

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember the threat the sequence of events.

Indeed, it started when the Zionists went to Palestine to take over their country.

The Palestinians have been defending themselves ever since.

You always dance around that fact.

So the genocide of the Jewish tribe by Mohamed had nothing to do with the command to kill all the Jews written into the Koran.

 

[Phoenall]

Where is Israel's defined territory?

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

But was not recognised by the organisation that matters so they stayed stateless, unlike Israel that was recognised and admitted to the organisation.

 

[pbel]

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

But was not recognised by the organisation that matters so they stayed stateless, unlike Israel that was recognised and admitted to the organisation.

I know I have said this before: absence a peace treaty signed by Israel and Palestine the UN recognizes the 67 armistice lines as their borders.

That is current International Law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

But was not recognised by the organisation that matters so they stayed stateless, unlike Israel that was recognised and admitted to the organisation.

Switzerland did not become a member of the UN until 2003. Does that mean it was not a state before then.

The UN does not have anything to do with creating or bestowing legitimacy. It can only give political recognition. It has nothing to do with legal standing.

 

[toastman]

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

But was not recognised by the organisation that matters so they stayed stateless, unlike Israel that was recognised and admitted to the organisation.

Switzerland did not become a member of the UN until 2003. Does that mean it was not s state before then.

The UN does not have anything to do with creating or bestowing legitimacy. It can only give political recognition. It has nothing to do with legal standing.

Your post is based o false premise

 

[P F Tinmore]

But was not recognised by the organisation that matters so they stayed stateless, unlike Israel that was recognised and admitted to the organisation.

Switzerland did not become a member of the UN until 2003. Does that mean it was not s state before then.

The UN does not have anything to do with creating or bestowing legitimacy. It can only give political recognition. It has nothing to do with legal standing.

Your post is based o false premise

Please elaborate.

 

[toastman]

You brought up Switzerland becoming part of the U.N, which really doesn't have much to do with his post. No one said that you needed to become a member of the U.N to become a state

You post about Switzerland and its recognition as if it is similar with Palestine's case

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I agree here.

The UN does not have anything to do with creating or bestowing legitimacy. It can only give political recognition. It has nothing to do with legal standing.

(COMMENT)

The UN is not actually a governing body - but an organization consisting of independent states, and doesn't actually have the inherent authority to "recognize" a State. Recognition is something exchanged between sovereign nations. UN recognition is a misnomer. In the 4-step application process, the General Assembly (upon favorable recommendation of the Security Council) vote to admit a state for membership. It is the individual nations that either grant or withhold recognition.

International Legitimacy is a very slippery animal. Most international law does not generally evaluate how a national government is formed; it is on a case-by-case basis by each nation as to what they, given what they know and the circumstance as they see them, determine what they derive as legitimate or not. There is no magic formula and no specific definition. What one nation may adjudge as legitimate, others may disagree.

It is very difficult to say, one nation is illegitimate, no matter how it is formed. There are simply no strict rules; most references represent a precedence, but not a necessarily a requirement.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

And once again, you post something that has NOTHING TO DO with my question.

Try again

Where is Israel's defined territory?

UN res 181 partition plan sets out the starting point for the borders, all there in black and white. Further to this the UN res 242 sets out the need for negotiations to allow for mutual agreement of future borders.

UN res 181 partition plan flopped. British (the mandate) refused to implement the resolution without Palestinian approval. Neither would the Security Council. The US withdrew its support and offered an alternate plan.

The UN defined no borders, transferred no land, and created no states.

 

[toastman]

Where is Israel's defined territory?

UN res 181 partition plan sets out the starting point for the borders, all there in black and white. Further to this the UN res 242 sets out the need for negotiations to allow for mutual agreement of future borders.

UN res 181 partition plan flopped. British (the mandate) refused to implement the resolution without Palestinian approval. Neither would the Security Council. The US withdrew its support and offered an alternate plan.

The UN defined no borders, transferred no land, and created no states.

Didn't the Palestinians declare Independence in 1988 based on Resolution 181?

 

[toastman]

Yup, it was:

Legal justification for the declaration was based on United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947

Palestinian Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[toastman]

" following upon UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, yet it is this Resolution that still provides those conditions of international legitimacy that ensure the right of the Palestinian Arab people to sovereignty."

Document: Palestinian Declaration of Independence, 15 Nov 1988



This site says the same thing:

http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/cache/offonce/pid/12353