I will not Bow!

[toastman]

Where are the documents showing Israel acquiring any land?

How many times does it have to be explained to you that acquiring land has nothing to do with this. He explained it VERY CLEARLY that the Mandate allowed Israel to declare independence in the territory allotted to her in the partition plan.
You know he's right, but you're just playing games right now.

Where did YOU read that Israel had to acquire land for it to declare independence ??? Link???

The partition plan flopped. It didn't happen.

Read my post again.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, this is an understanding over time.

Phoenall,

No, not at all.


(COMMENT)

BUT, early on in the Administration of the Mandate, it became obvious that the two cultures were not compatible; an unexpected discovery not envisioned by the Allied Powers. The Mandatory termed it, later on, as an "unreconcilable difference."

At the turn into the 20th Century, there were very few senior officials and diplomats that understood the Arab, the connection to Islam, and the cultural elements that resisted social diversity within the region. Had that been widely understood, it might have made a difference in the approach.

Most Respectfully,
R

They did not see that their stupid plan was going to be a hundred year long disaster?

What planet were they on?

(COMMENT)

The Partition Plan was not even a consideration in the 1920's when the Mandate came into effect. It was just the Balfour Declaration aims that were on the table.

There was a general consensus that, given time, the two cultures, each with nationalistic aspirations, would be civilized enough to overcome their differences. The development of the Palestinian Black Hand (an Arab Killing Machine with Islamic fundamentalism behind it) partly countered by the Haganah [local defense watch at Kibbutz level govern by policy of havlagah (restraint)] and later shed the splinter groups of Irgun and Lehi (each more offensive oriented than it predecessor), flared-up at a staggering rate.

However, it was the post-War (II) Palestine that really demonstrated the the extent to which the level of violence was to expand. And after what the Jewish Community had just gone through in Europe, when Isa Nakhleh (Arab Higher Committee) threatened a second Holocaust in 1948 ("The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.") the defenses of the Jewish People exploded in a flash of lightening. There was no coming back; the Jewish saw this as a decisive moment in the survival of their culture; live or die at the hands of the Arab.

Each side believed they had a perfect justification for the conflict. In another Century, maybe we'll know.

Today, the Arab Palestinian claims they are the victim of Apartheid, Genocide, Occupation and State terrorism. But remember the threat the sequence of events.

• WWII and Holocaust ends 1945: 6 Million Jews perish.
• Palestine 1948: Then the AHC makes the Solemn oath: "first to wipe them out — man, woman and child."

If for no other cause, --- what would you expect the outcome to be?

Did the Hostile Arab Palestinian exercise sound judgment and implement actions toward a peaceful solution?

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember the threat the sequence of events.

Indeed, it started when the Zionists went to Palestine to take over their country.

The Palestinians have been defending themselves ever since.

You always dance around that fact.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is nonsense. While it sets a precedence, it is not a Treaty to which anyone in the Middle East is a signatory.

Where are the documents showing Israel acquiring any land?

How many times does it have to be explained to you that acquiring land has nothing to do with this. He explained it VERY CLEARLY that the Mandate allowed Israel to declare independence in the territory allotted to her in the partition plan.
You know he's right, but you're just playing games right now.

Where did YOU read that Israel had to acquire land for it to declare independence ??? Link???

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

(QUESTION)

a ) a permanent population;

• Maybe. It has a high content of refugee (non-permanent).

b ) a defined territory;

• No boundaries and no treaty recognized borders. As you always as me, where is the deed, the transfer of the territory. (I can show you mine.)

c ) government; and

• Maybe. Up for debate!

d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

• We argued about that all last night. You claim that PM Abbas has no standing and that HAMAS is the legal government.

This is nonsense!

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, this is an understanding over time.

They did not see that their stupid plan was going to be a hundred year long disaster?

What planet were they on?

(COMMENT)

The Partition Plan was not even a consideration in the 1920's when the Mandate came into effect. It was just the Balfour Declaration aims that were on the table.

There was a general consensus that, given time, the two cultures, each with nationalistic aspirations, would be civilized enough to overcome their differences. The development of the Palestinian Black Hand (an Arab Killing Machine with Islamic fundamentalism behind it) partly countered by the Haganah [local defense watch at Kibbutz level govern by policy of havlagah (restraint)] and later shed the splinter groups of Irgun and Lehi (each more offensive oriented than it predecessor), flared-up at a staggering rate.

However, it was the post-War (II) Palestine that really demonstrated the the extent to which the level of violence was to expand. And after what the Jewish Community had just gone through in Europe, when Isa Nakhleh (Arab Higher Committee) threatened a second Holocaust in 1948 ("The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.") the defenses of the Jewish People exploded in a flash of lightening. There was no coming back; the Jewish saw this as a decisive moment in the survival of their culture; live or die at the hands of the Arab.

Each side believed they had a perfect justification for the conflict. In another Century, maybe we'll know.

Today, the Arab Palestinian claims they are the victim of Apartheid, Genocide, Occupation and State terrorism. But remember the threat the sequence of events.

• WWII and Holocaust ends 1945: 6 Million Jews perish.
• Palestine 1948: Then the AHC makes the Solemn oath: "first to wipe them out — man, woman and child."

If for no other cause, --- what would you expect the outcome to be?

Did the Hostile Arab Palestinian exercise sound judgment and implement actions toward a peaceful solution?

Most Respectfully,
R

But remember the threat the sequence of events.

Indeed, it started when the Zionists went to Palestine to take over their country.

The Palestinians have been defending themselves ever since.

You always dance around that fact.

LOL ! You say this as if it has any merit to what we are discussing.

Quite the opposite, it's actually a sign of desperation

 

[P F Tinmore]

And once again, you post something that has NOTHING TO DO with my question.

Try again

Where is Israel's defined territory?

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

 

[toastman]

Where is Israel's defined territory?

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

I'm talking about 1948. Show me that their declaration of independence was recognized.
BTW, didn't they declare independence on territory that Israel already declared independence on? Yes, they did, making it null !

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988, THAT was the one that was recognized. This is yet another issue which has been explained to you in detail, that you wish to ignore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] with limited recognition in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

I'm talking about 1948. Show me that their declaration of independence was recognized.
BTW, didn't they declare independence on territory that Israel already declared independence on? Yes, they did, making it null !

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988, THAT was the one that was recognized. This is yet another issue which has been explained to you in detail, that you wish to ignore.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] with limited recognition in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

Palestine was recognized by five other states but that really doesn't matter.

 

[toastman]

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

I'm talking about 1948. Show me that their declaration of independence was recognized.
BTW, didn't they declare independence on territory that Israel already declared independence on? Yes, they did, making it null !

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988, THAT was the one that was recognized. This is yet another issue which has been explained to you in detail, that you wish to ignore.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] with limited recognition in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

Palestine was recognized by five other states but that really doesn't matter.

Ok, but this doesn't change the FACT that the Declaration of independence of Palestine that was official and recognized was in 1988, as seen in my post

 

[P F Tinmore]

I'm talking about 1948. Show me that their declaration of independence was recognized.
BTW, didn't they declare independence on territory that Israel already declared independence on? Yes, they did, making it null !

The Palestinians declared independence in 1988, THAT was the one that was recognized. This is yet another issue which has been explained to you in detail, that you wish to ignore.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine, officially the State of Palestine (Arabic: دولة فلسطين* Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a de jure sovereign state[13][14] with limited recognition in the Levant that declared independence on 15 November 1988 by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its government-in-exile in Algiers

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933

Palestine was recognized by five other states but that really doesn't matter.

Ok, but this doesn't change the FACT that the Declaration of independence of Palestine that was official and recognized was in 1988, as seen in my post

Recognition is political. It really doesn't matter.

Israel still does not recognize Palestine. It is a political not legal position.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I have to laugh at this. Didn't you just call these guys foreigners?

Where is Israel's defined territory?

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

(COMMENT)

Interestingly enough, when you go the The League of Arab States - AL-BAB Web Site (AL-BAB: an open door to the Arab world), and query Palestine and click on "Country map Large (819k)" you get:

The 1974 inclusion was an outcome of the 7th Arab Summit meeting in Rabat, which I discussed prior. And it also says that the "PLO as sole representative of the Palestinians." The PLO says that Palestine became independent in November 1988 and recognizes the legitimacy of Resolution 181(II).

While it is apparently true that Sir Henry MacMahon once promised all of Palestine to the Sharif of Mecca, for his son, the deal was trimmed down and they got two Kingdoms (Jordan and Iraq).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, is that a 1974 map of Israel ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I have to laugh at this. Didn't you just call these guys foreigners?

Rocco answered that question with the map he posted. Notice the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
How can a country sign a treaty that gives it international borders with another country, and NOT have defined territory

BTW, d) is very interesting:
capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
Kind of like 'Palestine'. Thanks for proving my point that Palestine was not a country in 1948

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

(COMMENT)

Interestingly enough, when you go the The League of Arab States - AL-BAB Web Site (AL-BAB: an open door to the Arab world), and query Palestine and click on "Country map Large (819k)" you get:

The 1974 inclusion was an outcome of the 7th Arab Summit meeting in Rabat, which I discussed prior. And it also says that the "PLO as sole representative of the Palestinians." The PLO says that Palestine became independent in November 1988 and recognizes the legitimacy of Resolution 181(II).

While it is apparently true that Sir Henry MacMahon once promised all of Palestine to the Sharif of Mecca, for his son, the deal was trimmed down and they got two Kingdoms (Jordan and Iraq).

Most Respectfully,
R

That is a University of Texas map.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I have to laugh at this. Didn't you just call these guys foreigners?

Palestine was recognized by five other states when it declared independence in 1948. They worked with those other states. Palestine was admitted to the Arab League as a member state in 1974.

(COMMENT)

Interestingly enough, when you go the The League of Arab States - AL-BAB Web Site (AL-BAB: an open door to the Arab world), and query Palestine and click on "Country map Large (819k)" you get:

The 1974 inclusion was an outcome of the 7th Arab Summit meeting in Rabat, which I discussed prior. And it also says that the "PLO as sole representative of the Palestinians." The PLO says that Palestine became independent in November 1988 and recognizes the legitimacy of Resolution 181(II).

While it is apparently true that Sir Henry MacMahon once promised all of Palestine to the Sharif of Mecca, for his son, the deal was trimmed down and they got two Kingdoms (Jordan and Iraq).

Most Respectfully,
R

That is a University of Texas map.

Your point being ??

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I have to laugh at this. Didn't you just call these guys foreigners?


(COMMENT)

Interestingly enough, when you go the The League of Arab States - AL-BAB Web Site (AL-BAB: an open door to the Arab world), and query Palestine and click on "Country map Large (819k)" you get:

The 1974 inclusion was an outcome of the 7th Arab Summit meeting in Rabat, which I discussed prior. And it also says that the "PLO as sole representative of the Palestinians." The PLO says that Palestine became independent in November 1988 and recognizes the legitimacy of Resolution 181(II).

While it is apparently true that Sir Henry MacMahon once promised all of Palestine to the Sharif of Mecca, for his son, the deal was trimmed down and they got two Kingdoms (Jordan and Iraq).

Most Respectfully,
R

That is a University of Texas map.

Your point being ??

I thought it was supposed to be an Arab League map.

My bad.

 

[toastman]

That is a University of Texas map.

Your point being ??

I thought it was supposed to be an Arab League map.

My bad.

How would the Arab League map differ in your opinion ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Your point being ??

I thought it was supposed to be an Arab League map.

My bad.

How would the Arab League map differ in your opinion ?

Arab maps regularly do not include the armistice lines.

 

[toastman]

Interesting. I was not aware of that

 

[Phoenall]

Phoenall, et al,

No, not at all.

And you sound as if the MASS MURDER and OPPRESSION of the Jews by the arabs was a given and justifiable fiat

(COMMENT)

BUT, early on in the Administration of the Mandate, it became obvious that the two cultures were not compatible; an unexpected discovery not envisioned by the Allied Powers. The Mandatory termed it, later on, as an "unreconcilable difference."

At the turn into the 20th Century, there were very few senior officials and diplomats that understood the Arab, the connection to Islam, and the cultural elements that resisted social diversity within the region. Had that been widely understood, it might have made a difference in the approach.

Most Respectfully,
R

They did not see that their stupid plan was going to be a hundred year long disaster?

What planet were they on?

Just what is it you don't understand about the muslim mindset. They are commanded to kill all the Jews by their 7c religion and they try to carry out those commands. They see the world as theirs promised to them by their god, and they will take it any way they can. Once land has been taken then it is theirs for ever, even if they are beaten and run away the land is still theirs. Spain is still theirs and no amount of UN involvement will change their views on this, same with Israel it theirs stolen from all its other owners over the last 1400 years. That is how they exist in the modern world, and why those with sense say that they are not yet capable of living in the civilised world. The plan was sound, and in any other part of the world would have worked and been of benefit to all parties. But the HoAP have had 1400 years of hatred to live with and they found it very easy to turn against the Jews and attempt genocide.
What planet were they on............why planet islam of course which is their ultimate goal.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Interesting. I was not aware of that

Go to the PMW website. They ***** about that all the time.

 

[toastman]

Interesting. I was not aware of that

Go to the PMW website. They ***** about that all the time.

Where? Show me