CDZ I want to present this in this forum hopefully to get some real dialogue

[Rigby5]

If a person has Cancer and eventually dies from a cold, we don't say the person died of a cold.

sure we do....

if a person has cancer, and they are hit by a car and killed, we do not say they died of cancer....

if a person has cancer, and they died of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia....

COVID is a viral pneumonia in those who get sick, is my understanding.... all deaths are from this viral Pneumonia, regardless of their underlying conditions..... or no underlying conditions.... pneumonia is what kills them..... I had heard????

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200274

Getting hit by a car is an indicator of how dangerous cars are, regardless of whether the person hit was dying slowly from cancer or not.
But if ALL those dying from COVID-19 are compromised and dying from something else, and COVID-19 would not otherwise have pushed them over the edge, then they are not an indicator of how dangerous COVID-19 is and should NOT be used.

Slight detail also is that the people are not dying from viral pneumonia. They are dying from bacterial pneumonia or from our own immune system attacking our own lungs. It is not really a viral pneumonia. The virus is just setting up the conditions that make it more likely to happen. There is viral pneumonia, but COVID-19 is not causing that. We can tell because quinine helps because it suppresses the immune system. If it were a viral pneumonia, then something that suppresses the immune system would make it worse instead of helping.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You can't read a basic graph..

you can’t find, the right chart.

D. Eagle found the right chart. So did Correll.

Post 19#375

250+ died per million

19.5 million people million people in the New York State

Therefore:

250 per million X 19.5 million people = 4875 people died in New York State for the day that red line passes the 250 people per million died mark.

That’s correct: During a seven day period 4875 people died in New York State exactly at the time that this chart shows the C19 red line crosses the (250 deaths per million) line.

That comes to around 700 deaths per day .

D. Eagle messed up for some reason when he cited 400 DPD instead of the accurate number of 700. The chart is correct.’

Sorry that it disturbs the conspiracy theory that Trump started but does not believe anymore..

This Conspiracy theory:

*(Libs and Deep Staters are faking deaths in this pandemic to hurt Trump’s re-election).

 

[Rigby5]

If a person has Cancer and eventually dies from a cold, we don't say the person died of a cold.

sure we do....

if a person has cancer, and they are hit by a car and killed, we do not say they died of cancer....

if a person has cancer, and they died of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia....

COVID is a viral pneumonia in those who get sick, is my understanding.... all deaths are from this viral Pneumonia, regardless of their underlying conditions..... or no underlying conditions.... pneumonia is what kills them..... I had heard????

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200274

Your 'hit by a car' analogy is insane in the first place. How do you know that a person with end stage cancer was not negatively affected to such a degree it caused them to have an accident? 'Cause of death' is something a coroner determines but that doesn't mean pneumonia is the sole cause. If it were not for depressed immune system, the pneumonia could likely have been cured. I myself had pneumonia and was cured. You are picking at straws to somehow argue which is what you usually do.

the people who die, die of Novel Corona Virus Pneumonia.....regardless of their other conditions that have weakened them in fighting it.....

I too have had Pneumonia, but it was a bacterial pneumonia, that was treatable with antibiotics....

this Cov2 Pneumonia virus, has no cure or antivirals..... as of yet.

But since the COVID-19 is not a viral pneumonia, there is a cure for it.
The use of immune system suppressants like quinine, seems to be working.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Last chance -- Where's the error in the math above?

Right here

There are 320 million in America so that is 32 THOUSAND a WEEK.. It's SOOOO wrong -- it's ridiculous..

D. EAGLE Got it right. There are 19.5 million in the state of NY.

D. Eagle“250 per million X 19.5 million people = 4875 people died in New York State for the [seven days] day that red line passes the 250 people per million died mark.”

During a seven day period 4875 people died in New York State exactly at the time that this chart shows the C19 red line crosses the (250 deaths per million) line.

I realize it does not support this conspiracy theory,

14 Post #260 start.

I know that libs in government positions have a motive to inflate the numbers, and have demonstrated that they put partisan advantage over their jobs in plenty of other examples.

When you get that the cause of 700 deaths per week in NY makes zero difference to what the chart Is showing. It is showing a spike in deaths per day in New York City not seen since September 11 , 2001.

 

[flacaltenn]

250+ died per million
19.5 million people million people in the New York

That is about 700 COVID19 deaths per day in New York. That is easily verifIed to be correct because New York City starting in April had had peak at 1000 deaths per day.


New York City Covid-19 Deaths Top 1,000. Here Are the Latest Numbers.

• By Al Root. April 1, 2020 8:47 am ET

New York City Covid-19 Deaths Top 1,000. Here Are the Latest Numbers.

U.S. Covid-19 undefinednumbers keep rising, exceeding 189,000 early Wednesday morning.

www.google.com

DO You stand corrected?

Thanks for helping me prove the graph valid and correct.

Oh hell no I'm not corrected.. You STILL can defend that screwy chart from Newatlantis or what ever dumpster you found that in.. And you CANT READ the axis scaling and do the simple math I just did for you.. AND NOW -- you want to talk about NY City alone instead of NATIONWIDE statistics that were in your 1st graph...

You even MISREAD the link above... That;'s NOT deaths vs ttime or Deaths per week per capita -- That 1000 number is TOTAL CUMULATIVE deaths..

Deaths due to Covid-19 complications recently topped 1,000 in New York City and 4,000 in the U.S. Globally, more than 42,000 people have died from more than 862,000 confirmed cases. New coronavirus cases diagnosed over the past day tallied another 60,000 Tuesday.

Can't GET you to discuss the math, the statistics or basic proper graphic so I give up... But everything I TRIED to discuss with you is actually true..

 

[flacaltenn]

There are 320 million in America so that is 32 THOUSAND a WEEK.. It's SOOOO wrong -- it's ridiculous..

What is the SCALE on the vertical axis of that graph?? Can you READ the data point for week 2.5 or 3 for the Red Covid line for the class? Or don't you know that the scaling and legends of graphs are the MOST important part.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are 320 million in America so that is 32 THOUSAND a WEEK.. It's SOOOO wrong -- it's ridiculous..

What is the SCALE on the vertical axis of that graph?? Can you READ the data point for week 2.5 or 3 for the Red Covid line for the class? Or don't you know that the scaling and legends of graphs are the MOST important part.

I'm sorry.. Not paying too much attention to "discussing" this with you -- make that the data point on the Covid line for week 4 or 5...

 

[flacaltenn]

sure we do....

if a person has cancer, and they are hit by a car and killed, we do not say they died of cancer....

if a person has cancer, and they died of pneumonia, the cause of death is pneumonia....

Not actually.. Because auto accidents have nothing to do with cancer as a pre existing morbidity factor, there's no connection.. But EVERY cancer patient is TOLD they will probably die of something that is not directly cancer.. And that they can not AFFORD exposure to infections of any kind.

Coroners DO take primary srevere and existing morbidities as the likely cause of death.. Politicians do not and they can count their "deaths" any way they TELL the public health officials to write it up... In some cases, you cannot even TREAT a cancer patient for infections effectively because of progressive organ damage.. And that restriction on care did not KILL them -- the cancer did...

 

[flacaltenn]

Good article from the BBC on counting Covid deaths below.. It's complicated for a LOT of reasons and a couple of them become political.. Bottom line is a patient with chronic severe asthma has a HUGER probability of dying than a "respiratory normal" patient. In facts respiratory infections that most all NORMAL people will survive without medical attention is an EMERGENCY for the patient with chronic compromised breathing.. That's WHY there's an argument POLITICALLY right now over the edict to call EVERY DEATH of a covid infection -- a Covid death...

What is Covid-19’s real death rate?

In Italy, the death rate from Covid-19 is more than 10 times greater than in Germany. Why does the death rate vary so much internationally?

www.bbc.com

What counts as a Covid-19 death?

There are other factors that alter the death rate, too.

One of them is what doctors actually count as a Covid-19 death. At first it might seem simple enough: if a patient dies while infected with Covid-19, they died of Covid-19.

But what if they had an underlying condition, such as asthma, which was exacerbated by Covid-19? Or what if the patient died from something seemingly less related to Covid-19, which is a respiratory disease – such as, say, a brain aneurysm? Which condition should be considered the cause of death?

Even within a country, official statistics can vary according to what you count. In the UK, for example, the Department of Health and Social Care releases daily updates on how many people who tested positive for Covid-19 died that day. This includes any patient who tested positive for Covid-19 but who might have died from another condition (for example, terminal cancer). But the UK’s Office for National Statistics counts all deaths as Covid-19 where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate, regardless of whether they were tested or if it was merely a suspected case of Covid-19. Adding to the complexity of trying to understand the death rates is that the two are out of sync, since the ONS way of counting can only happen after a death certificate has been issued, so takes longer.

“The issue is not really about right or wrong, but about each source of data having its own strengths and weaknesses,” Sarah Caul, head of mortality analysis at ONS, writes in a blog post on the different ways of counting deaths.

This is not necessarily a source of discrepancy between most countries, though, as many are counting deaths in the same way. Italy counts any death of a patient who has Covid-19 as a death caused by Covid-19; so does Germany and Hong Kong.

In the US, doctors have more discretion: they are asked to record whether the patient died “as a result of this illness” when reporting Covid-19 deaths to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. It could be easy to see how a physician might believe that a Covid-19 patient who died of, say, a heart attack or brain aneurysm didn’t die as a result of Covid-19, and so wouldn’t report accordingly.

Complex causes

The picture is murkier still when patients have not had a Covid-19 test, but are a suspected case. Given that many deaths from Covid-19 are in people who have underlying health issues, doctors still have to make the call on the cause of death.

During an epidemic, doctors are more likely to attribute a death with complex causes as being caused by the disease in question – a trait known as ascertainment bias.

“We know, during an epidemic, people will call every death as though it’s related to Covid-19. But that is not the case,” says Heneghan. “Always, when people look back at the case notes and assign causation, they realise they will have overestimated the case fatality in relation to the disease.”

The reason for the bias is that “there’s a tendency to focus on the worst-case scenario”, says Heneghan. “That’s the only message that gets out there.”

 

[Damaged Eagle]

That is about 700 COVID19 deaths per day in New York. That is easily verifIed to be correct because New York City starting in April had had peak at 1000 deaths per day.


New York City Covid-19 Deaths Top 1,000. Here Are the Latest Numbers.

• By Al Root. April 1, 2020 8:47 am ET

New York City Covid-19 Deaths Top 1,000. Here Are the Latest Numbers.

U.S. Covid-19 undefinednumbers keep rising, exceeding 189,000 early Wednesday morning.

www.google.com

DO You stand corrected?

Thanks for helping me prove the graph valid and correct.

Sorry you can't get your facts straight.

When the death count in New York tops the 4875 in a single day like I stated about the "graph" you made up in your General Math 101 course projection let me know.

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[Care4all]

But EVERY cancer patient is TOLD they will probably die of something that is not directly cancer.. And that they can not AFFORD exposure to infections of any kind

That's true, my hubby's dad had metastasized cancer, terminal when diagnosed, but died from heart failure, but it was the cancer that caused that...

But with these covid patient deaths of people with preexisting conditions that I've seen reported were things like hypertension, or diabetes, and these people could have lived another 20 to 30 years with medication without this corona virus.... So to me, unless they are on their deathbed before contracting the virus, like with a terminal cancer, then the virus, is what did them in....

 

[flacaltenn]

But EVERY cancer patient is TOLD they will probably die of something that is not directly cancer.. And that they can not AFFORD exposure to infections of any kind

That's true, my hubby's dad had metastasized cancer, terminal when diagnosed, but died from heart failure, but it was the cancer that caused that...

But with these covid patient deaths of people with preexisting conditions that I've seen reported were things like hypertension, or diabetes, and these people could have lived another 20 to 30 years with medication without this corona virus.... So to me, unless they are on their deathbed before contracting the virus, like with a terminal cancer, then the virus, is what did them in....

Sure.. It's complicated and being DEBATED right now all over the world.. And as the BBC article said, when doctors are under stress, they're gonna go with what the patient was TREATED for. And politicians are gonna tell health dept to chalk them ALL up to Covid.. But you and both know that's not accurate.. Maybe the time to be ACCURATE about this is a year or two away...

I know the situation.. My oncologist calls me her "happiest" patient.. I was diagnosed with CLL in my late 40s.. My immune system is pretty weak, but I've never been treated for it.. And infections of ANY KIND are what might kill me when normal people just had an "infected" hangnail and never needed med help. If I die from an infected hangnail and I had Covid -- It would NOT be the Covid that killed me...

 

[NotfooledbyW]

20# reply to 20#

When the death count in New York tops the 4875 in a single day like I stated about the "graph" you made up in your General Math 101 course projection let me know.

Read the chart again Chuckles. Here is the updated copy;

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/imgLib/20200421_CovidweeklydeathsNYthroughApril19.jpg

You were right the first time.

See, it states “WEEKLY” - that’s 250 new deaths reported per week per million of population.

So just to be clear it’s 250 new deaths per million of population per week x 19.5 million of NY state population = 4875 deaths per Week. Divide deaths per week by 7 days in a week and we get 696 deaths per day.,

I’ll wait for at least one of you three to point out an error in that calculation.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

The sad fact of the matter is that it is a uncommon virus that makes people who have no antibodies for immunity more susceptible. Yes there will be a higher death count this time around due to that fact. My thoughts and observations are that it is not as pandemic as we were led to believe. Yes the elderly and those with conditions are at risk and all precautions should be taken to limit their exposure to said virus. However I suspect that in a decade or two this particular virus will be no more deadly to the general population than the several varieties of the common cold that affect us today.

NOTE 1: I could be wrong but the evidence so far supports my beliefs.

NOTE 2: I believe this pandemic hysteria was a good thing and shows us our weaknesses, especially in the health care industry, and that hopefully the people responsible for such will take action and ensure that they are more prepared in the future.

NOTE 3: Hopefully this opened some eyes to all industries; especially the health care industry, restaurant chains, and our supermarkets; and that they will take action to ensure some of the sanitary issues that they've instituted remain in place and at a high standard.

*****SMILE*****

 

[flacaltenn]

So to me, unless they are on their deathbed before contracting the virus, like with a terminal cancer, then the virus, is what did them in....

Not necessarily... You can DEFER things like CHeartFailure with drugs and treatment but your heart is STILL too weak to go thru traumatic respiratory events. You gotta compare the DIFF between a normal heart response to the Covid. Take the name away from that patient and the statistics ALREADY predict a much worst outcome for the CHF patient than a "healthy" patient.. Coming in the ER door with any respiratory disease -- that's what the docs rely on..

Early on -- there were multiple reports that morbid obesity and diabetes were WAY over represented in the Covid deaths.. Those CONDITIONS are RISKS that are inherent in dying from COvid or any resp. disease.. The COvid was just the event that overtaxed their disease..

In fact -- DHS is getting sued for guidance that was tossed at doctors about "rationing" should the hospitals BE overwhelmed.. Thank GOd that never happened. But the lawyers are gonna have a field day nonetheless.. They're being sued by the disabled -- because the triage listed them as "compromised" patients that would NOT GET priority ventilator access for instance..

I DONT understand why the disabled -- but there ya go.. SOMEHOW those outcome probabilities matter -- even if the govt gets them wrong or confused... I'll wager folks with chronic heart/lung issues were a LOT farther down the "rationing" list than the disabled..

 

[flacaltenn]

20# reply to 20#

When the death count in New York tops the 4875 in a single day like I stated about the "graph" you made up in your General Math 101 course projection let me know.

Read the chart again Chuckles. Here is the updated copy;

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/imgLib/20200421_CovidweeklydeathsNYthroughApril19.jpg

You were right the first time.

View attachment 326251

See, it states “WEEKLY” - that’s 250 new deaths reported per week per million of population.

So just to be clear it’s 250 new deaths per million of population per week x 19.5 million of NY state population = 4875 deaths per Week. Divide deaths per week by 7 days in a week and we get 696 deaths per day.,

I’ll wait for at least one of you three to point out an error in that calculation.

That's not a GRAPH -- it's a CRAYON job.. Where is the Vertical axis? THe units of measure? The SCALING that makes the difference between a SKETCH and an actual presentation of data??? Are the units for the "covid data" (which isn't real data) the SAME as the units of measure for the normal flu season? Is that normal flu season JUST FOR NEW YORK??

And more importantly -- are YOU the "science/medicine editor" for this NewAtlantis?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

[/QUOTE]

- It would NOT be the Covid that killed me...

Yes it would. If you were tested positive with the infection, the CDC would want you counted as a case and be recorded that it killed you.


Watch the video. They could amputate your toe if it was going to kill you. They can’t amputate your lungs if C19 infects them.

 

[flacaltenn]

20# reply to 20#

When the death count in New York tops the 4875 in a single day like I stated about the "graph" you made up in your General Math 101 course projection let me know.

Read the chart again Chuckles. Here is the updated copy;

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/imgLib/20200421_CovidweeklydeathsNYthroughApril19.jpg

You were right the first time.

View attachment 326251

See, it states “WEEKLY” - that’s 250 new deaths reported per week per million of population.

So just to be clear it’s 250 new deaths per million of population per week x 19.5 million of NY state population = 4875 deaths per Week. Divide deaths per week by 7 days in a week and we get 696 deaths per day.,

I’ll wait for at least one of you three to point out an error in that calculation.

The full graph at the site

Yes it would. If you were tested positive with the infection, the CDC would want you counted as a case and be recorded that it killed you.

The CDC are bunch of bureaucratic bean counters. They can count any way they want to.. But it was my WEAKENED immune system that CAUSED an infected hangnail to turn INTO a problem where a flu could kill me.. Anyone under 60 and not comprised is not dying in droves from COVID.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The CDC are bunch of bureaucratic bean counters. They can count any way they want to..

They will, and you still have not explained what caused the April spike in deaths if the C19 virus isn’t really killing anybody.

As for the chart’s authors they are more likely undercounting deaths rather than overcoming. They explain:

In the first five days of April, 1,125 people were pronounced dead in their homes or on the street in New York City, more than eight times the deaths recorded during the same period in 2019, according to the Fire Department.​

Many of these people — as well as many who die in hospitals — are not being tested for the virus, and therefore are not included in the official death counts.”​

​

Not Like the Flu, Not Like Car Crashes, Not Like

It’s about the spike.

www.thenewatlantis.com

I’m sure the Fire fighters and EMS are in on the hoax to stop a Trump, right.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

What is the SCALE on the vertical axis of that graph?? Can you READ the data point for week 2.5 or 3 for the Red Covid line for the class? Or don't you know that the scaling and legends of graphs are the MOST important part.

the scaling on the vertical line and the horizontal lines are equally spaced so there is no distortion. Your math was do horribly wrong , now you are going after the picture.