How to cut and run

[LuvRPgrl]

Hold on there a second LuvRPgrl...



Well, yeah, N Korea went on the shit list after the war with regards to trade, travel, and assistence which were so severe it lead to national canibalisim... now they have nukes. Kind of reminds you of Germany after WW 1 no?]

From china and n korea thru russia and into eastern europe, they were all communist. Korea was able to trade with them, it wasnt by any means a world wide embargo. But to show the inferiority of communism, they all fell to the superior model, capatilism.

Vietnam's star has been on the rise for some time now. They're actualy doing well for themselves all things considered. They have one of the fastest-growing economies in the world right now.]

and like china, again, thanks to communism.

https://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vm.html#Econ

and it simply doesnt change the fact that had we not bailed, vietnam wouldnt have become communist, and pol pot may have never risen to power.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Proposition One is correct, in my view.

Ho Chi Minh, like ALL Vietnamese intellectuals was educated in Paris at a time when virtually EVERYONE in Paris was a socialist/communist. He affiliated with the Communist Party while in Paris. After WW II, when anti-communism became the mantra of American policy, this fact alone was sufficient to ensure that HCM was treated as a pariah.

The rest, as they say, is history, and is recorded for all to see on a long black marble tablet in Washington. It is a monument to human stupidity.

When people use descriptions like "virtually everyone", it just lowers your credibility. Let your arguement stand on its own merits and dont use hyperbole. NO country is EVER virtually 100% of ANY political stand. To even get 65% would be considered a MASSIVE landsllide victory. France even had a very significant amount of pro german nazis.

 

[MGB]

Okay, I accept your critique. Suffice to say that Paris at the time between WW I and WW II was inhabited by a number of people who were admirers of Karl Mark and socialist ideas. So the young HCM, while attending university in Paris, was exposed to this thinking and his membership in the communist party was unremarkable among university students at the time.

It is my understanding that he approached representatives of the US after the defeat of Japan and asked for support in ridding his country of foreign influence, be it from the Japanese or the French. His characterization as a nationalist seems to be about the most accurate label one could apply to him. But his history of association with communists was anathema to American policy makers at the time and getting France to support NATO was deemed far more pressing a need than the fate of a small asian country that few had ever heard of and even fewer had any actual knowledge about.

Rebuffed by the US, HCM took whatever assistance he could get to rid his country of foreign rulers and the Russians were only too HAPPY to oblige and thereby give the US a nice poke in the eye while doing so.

In any event, my writing tends to gravitate towards the hyperbolic, and I shall endeavor to control that impulse in the future, though the task be practically Sysiphian in nature for me.

 

[trobinett]

Okay, I accept your critique. Suffice to say that Paris at the time between WW I and WW II was inhabited by a number of people who were admirers of Karl Mark and socialist ideas. So the young HCM, while attending university in Paris, was exposed to this thinking and his membership in the communist party was unremarkable among university students at the time.

It is my understanding that he approached representatives of the US after the defeat of Japan and asked for support in ridding his country of foreign influence, be it from the Japanese or the French. His characterization as a nationalist seems to be about the most accurate label one could apply to him. But his history of association with communists was anathema to American policy makers at the time and getting France to support NATO was deemed far more pressing a need than the fate of a small asian country that few had ever heard of and even fewer had any actual knowledge about.

Rebuffed by the US, HCM took whatever assistance he could get to rid his country of foreign rulers and the Russians were only too HAPPY to oblige and thereby give the US a nice poke in the eye while doing so.

In any event, my writing tends to gravitate towards the hyperbolic, and I shall endeavor to control that impulse in the future, though the task be practically Sysiphian in nature for me.

So, is this like being "put in your place"?

HCM was a self-centered piece of shit. He was offering Utopia, to a people that could barely put food on the table. Sure they adored him, I might as well, if I found myself in their position. Lets don't make him a fucking hero.:talk2:

I don't know what it is about hippie's from the '70's, or the whole liberal movement, but man, they sure can "bend" perception.

All the "flair-ups" in Asia were a cluster fuck for America, and those that cared in Europa. Ya put one fire out at a time.

MG posts:

In any event, my writing tends to gravitate towards the hyperbolic, and I shall endeavor to control that impulse in the future, though the task be practically Sysiphian in nature for me.

Really? I hadn't noticed.

Well, it IS a worthy aspiration.

 

[MGB]

"put in your place"?

Well, yeah, trob. This is slightly different territory than I am accustomed to. AS they say, "We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto." Or even R-kansas, as the case may be! :fifty:

I better not say any more or I run the risk of being slapped around some more for being off topic, guilty of poor grammatical contruction and fomenting mopery on the high seas!

 

[pegwinn]

First: The article was interesting from a philosophical POV. But philosophy and reality are at odds. We are there, and we are not going anywhere anytime soon. So, even if the author isn't an idiot, he's not playing with a full deck since he isn't accepting reality.

Second: After accepting reality and knowing that the war will continue until we win, it would be time to take off the kid gloves. The rules of engagement when my unit was in Iraq are very different from the ones my son-in-law are fighting under.

Iraq isn't VN. The enemy in Iraq isn't a recognized .mil force. The enemy has no central command and control for the guerrilla forces. The enemy is a bakers dozen overarmed street gangs (with little or no interest in working together) and one or two bonafide terrorist organizations with ties outside the country. So they cannot win. The best they can hope for is our withdrawal.

We can discuss on the ground tactics all you want. But it will be all for naught if no one wants to accept reality.

 

[MGB]

you're a moron.


Well, gee. You sure have a way with words, there, fella. Yup, I have done some introspection and come to realize that I AM a moron, my entire miserable life has been an utter waste of precious oxygen and I am lower than dogshit on the evolutionary scale. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

You have definitely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one, including you.

 

[Gunny]

you're a moron.


Well, gee. You sure have a way with words, there, fella. Yup, I have done some introspection and come to realize that I AM a moron, my entire miserable life has been an utter waste of precious oxygen and I am lower than dogshit on the evolutionary scale. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

You have definitely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one, including you.

Y'know, I just LOVE it when you self-sanctimonious asshats deem us uneducated rednecks worthy of some of your philosophical bull. Not lost at all in the translation is regardless your attempt at eloquence, you're just saying anyone who doesn't agree with your argument is uneducated/ignorant or just stupid.

I don't find you all that bright. Just another lefty who tries to hide his flawed arguments in a smokescreen of prose.

 

[pegwinn]

Y'know, I just LOVE it when you self-sanctimonious asshats deem us uneducated rednecks worthy .........

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to GunnyL again.

 

[MGB]

you're just saying anyone who doesn't agree with your argument is uneducated/ignorant or just stupid.


Odd. Here I thought it was YOU who uncorked the "moron" word. Don't start anything you can't finish, bub.

And as long as we're having this conversation, the Vietnam Memorial is a SYMBOL, and symbols often, though not always, operate on several levels. Of course, one would have to be capable of higher order thinking in order to realize that.

I have dear, beloved friends who's names are on that Wall and I honor them in my heart every day of my life. In no way do I demean or disparage the men and women whose names appear there. But The Wall ALSO stands for the stupidity, arrogance and ignorance of our leaders who made it necessary for those hallowed names to appear there. The young woman who designed The Wall made it clear that it was meant to symbolize the deep gash in the national psyche that the war caused.

I wonder if you can even comprehend how similar your own shoot from the lip ravings are to the lunatic ravings of the muslim culture when someone in Holland prints a cartoon they deem slanderous of Islam. From where I sit, there's precious little difference between the two. Food for thought......:food1:

uneducated rednecks

Your words, NOT mine. Its truly unfortunate if you hold yourself in such low regard.

 

[Dr Grump]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MGB again.

 

[Gunny]

you're just saying anyone who doesn't agree with your argument is uneducated/ignorant or just stupid.


Odd. Here I thought it was YOU who uncorked the "moron" word. Don't start anything you can't finish, bub.

I made the statement, and I stand by it. Nothing is unfinished on my part.

And as long as we're having this conversation, the Vietnam Memorial is a SYMBOL, and symbols often, though not always, operate on several levels. Of course, one would have to be capable of higher order thinking in order to realize that.

Y'think? Gee, I don't know ......

You need to get your money back from whoever sold you the bill of goods that you're somehow "smarter than the average bear."

I have dear, beloved friends who's names are on that Wall and I honor them in my heart every day of my life. In no way do I demean or disparage the men and women whose names appear there. But The Wall ALSO stands for the stupidity, arrogance and ignorance of our leaders who made it necessary for those hallowed names to appear there. The young woman who designed The Wall made it clear that it was meant to symbolize the deep gash in the national psyche that the war caused.

I did not accuse you of demeaning or diparaging anyone whose name appears on the memorial. You DID however use the memorial itself to make a politically partisan statement. DO try to comprehend the fact that not everyone you encounter is a paramecium. I called you on what you said, not what you didn't.

The designer's intent is fine and dandy for her, but irrelevant to the perception of the Nation as a whole. The memorial was sold as what it is ... a memorial to honor the fallen in a war, not to make some partisan political statement for those who opposed said war.

I wonder if you can even comprehend how similar your own shoot from the lip ravings are to the lunatic ravings of the muslim culture when someone in Holland prints a cartoon they deem slanderous of Islam. From where I sit, there's precious little difference between the two. Food for thought......:food1:

Really? I wonder if YOU can comprehend just how blind and ignorant a statement you just posted. I CAN comprehend the fact that you are attempting to smokescreen your baseless arrogance via blameshifting -- compare me to intolerant religious fanatics and watch me tapdance to justify my position. Relieves you of having to respond to being called on your weak arguments and/or intellectual elitist attitude.

So, I'll just say simply that you are incorrect if you actually believe that crap. Disagreeing with your stance does not equate to intolerance.

What I AM intolerant of is wannabe-intellectuals speaking in a condesending manner; especially, when said wannabe has no real basis to his belief other than delusional self-perception.
uneducated rednecks

Your words, NOT mine. Its truly unfortunate if you hold yourself in such low regard.

Is this where I say: "Hardee-har .... that was so funny I forgot to laugh?"

I don't hold myself in low regard. That's for you fools on the left who just can't accept that people disagree with your political idealism for valid reasons. You justify to yourself that it is our lack of education or that we're just plain dumb that makes us believe and or vote certain ways in the face of your partisan pleas to do the opposite. YOU are a perfect example of that very mentality as exemplified in your posts on this board to date.

Here's a real simple clue for you Einstein, one that shouldn't be so overlooked by one with so much intelligence ... you lose your audience the SECOND you start talking down to it. DO get out your slide rule and junior chemistry set and see what you can do with THAT simple fact.

 

[Gunny]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MGB again.

Wow. What a shock.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

"put in your place"?

Well, yeah

WOW MGB, your avatar pretty much says it all. Very fitting for the "blame US first" crowd.

 

[MGB]

Yup, ol' Walt Kelly was a very dangerous fellow. By the way, Mark Twain said the only difference between people and animals was the ability to laugh. 'Course he was another dangerous fellow and was actually banned from many American schools during his lifetime and afterwards. Doesn't pay to have too much independent thought running around loose. Someone could get hurt! :bangheads

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Yup, ol' Walt Kelly was a very dangerous fellow. By the way, Mark Twain said the only difference between people and animals was the ability to laugh. 'Course he was another dangerous fellow and was actually banned from many American schools during his lifetime and afterwards. Doesn't pay to have too much independent thought running around loose. Someone could get hurt! :bangheads

and they also say there is always a bit of truth in the joke.

 

[Redhots]

and it simply doesnt change the fact that had we not bailed, vietnam wouldnt have become communist, and pol pot may have never risen to power.

Like Iraq this is the issue I don't think people "get".

You can't export your democracy to another country if the majority of the people you are fighting against are the ones that are willing to fight, and fight hard.

I don't think I've ever heard a VN vet ever say anything good about S. VN troops.

Its the same in Iraq, except it seems more likely we'll have 2-3 seperate nations come out of it than a unified one.

 

[MGB]

Still believe in the Domino Theory, huh? Tell me, is it true that Vietnam has one of the hottest economies in the world right now? Hmmmm....maybe they are interested in surviving instead of prolonging some ideological game. The Domino Theory was discredited 20 years ago. Perhaps you didn't hear the news. :tdown2:

 

[Gunny]

Still believe in the Domino Theory, huh? Tell me, is it true that Vietnam has one of the hottest economies in the world right now? Hmmmm....maybe they are interested in surviving instead of prolonging some ideological game. The Domino Theory was discredited 20 years ago. Perhaps you didn't hear the news. :tdown2:

Eastern Bloc anyone?

 

[manu1959]

Still believe in the Domino Theory, huh? Tell me, is it true that Vietnam has one of the hottest economies in the world right now? Hmmmm....maybe they are interested in surviving instead of prolonging some ideological game. The Domino Theory was discredited 20 years ago. Perhaps you didn't hear the news. :tdown2:

i take that back....this post is toooooooooo ironic