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How responsible is France for the Vietnam War?

DudleySmith

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Again, the offensive was launched by the VC, not the NVA. PAVN was just logistical supply and political watchdogs, and in any case they didn't lead, and in fact were driven back into Cambodia later. The VC were crushed, finished as even guerilla units,so obviously the PAVN's weren't a major invasion force until later,after Tet.

Whose arms you had to twist vigorously to get token contributions. None of them wanted your stupid unwinnable war.

Actually all of them participated willingly, it was a treaty organization, but we know you're sick commie deviant and have to make up a lot of crap.
 

DudleySmith

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It's almost as though Eisenhower had nothing to do with preventing Vietnamese self determination.
Yeah, cuz the Soviets and Red Chinese never interfered, the Viet Minh leadership just converted to commie nonsense on their own volition. lol lol lol what a tool.
 
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Otis Mayfield

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Again, the offensive was launched by the VC, not the NVA. PAVN was just logistical supply and political watchdogs, and in any case they didn't lead, and in fact were driven back into Cambodia later. The VC were crushed, finished as even guerilla units,so obviously the PAVN's weren't a major invasion force until later,after Tet. You might as well claim the Soviets invaded, too, since there were a few Soviet advisors running around as well.

Preparations for the offensive were already underway. The logistical build-up began in mid-year, and by January 1968, 81,000 tons of supplies and 200,000 troops, including seven complete infantry regiments and 20 independent battalions made the trip south on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.[67]

South Vietnamese and U.S. military intelligence estimated that PAVN/NLFSV forces in South Vietnam during January 1968 totaled 323,000 men, including 130,000 PAVN regulars, 160,000 NLFSV and members of the infrastructure, and 33,000 service and support troops. They were organized into nine divisions composed of 35 infantry and 20 artillery or anti-aircraft artillery regiments, which were, in turn, composed of 230 infantry and six sapper battalions.

 

rightwinger

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Yeah, cuz the Soviets and Red Chinese never interfered, the Viet Minh leadership just converted to commie nonsense on their own volition. lol lol lol what a tool.
They converted to Communism because the Capitalists denied them self government
 

DudleySmith

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They converted to Communism because the Capitalists denied them self government
Preparations for the offensive were already underway. The logistical build-up began in mid-year, and by January 1968, 81,000 tons of supplies and 200,000 troops, including seven complete infantry regiments and 20 independent battalions made the trip south on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.[67]

South Vietnamese and U.S. military intelligence estimated that PAVN/NLFSV forces in South Vietnam during January 1968 totaled 323,000 men, including 130,000 PAVN regulars, 160,000 NLFSV and members of the infrastructure, and 33,000 service and support troops. They were organized into nine divisions composed of 35 infantry and 20 artillery or anti-aircraft artillery regiments, which were, in turn, composed of 230 infantry and six sapper battalions.


Military sources were famous for their outright lying to their own President, which is why LBJ didn't trust any of them. Most of the PAVN were in Laos and up the trail; they came in late, after the VC had lost badly, and then got driven back out even more quickly than they came in.
 

DudleySmith

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They converted to Communism because the Capitalists denied them self government

Nah. Ho would invite the Viet Minh leaders to meetings in Red China; those that kowtowed to him were allowed to leave and return, those that didn't were either killed or ratted out to the French intelligence service. You wouldn't know that because you only like commie sources and propaganda. Most of the VC in the Mekong Delta weren't Reds, which is why after the fall the Reds hunted them down and killed or interned them. Even most of the rank and file weren't Reds north of the Delta. We were smuggling them out for years after the '72 pullout. You wouldn't know that either; your commie bosses didn't like to tell you anything that made them look bad.

The yardies and other tribes and the LLDB units handled the PAVN for the most part.
 
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rightwinger

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Nah. Ho would invite the Viet Minh leaders to meetings in Red China; those that kowtowed to him were allowed to leave and return, those that didn't were either killed or ratted out to the French intelligence service. You wouldn't know that because you only like commie sources and propaganda. Most of the VC in the Mekong Delta weren't Reds, which is why after the fall the Reds hunted them down and killed or interned them. Even most of the rank and file weren't Reds north of the Delta. We were smuggling them out for years after the '72 pullout. You wouldn't know that either; your commie bosses didn't like to tell you anything that made them look bad.

The yardies and other tribes and the LLDB units handled the PAVN for the most part.
After WWII Ho pleaded with the Western Powers for independence
They laughed him off

The Communists welcomed him
 

DudleySmith

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After WWII Ho pleaded with the Western Powers for independence
They laughed him off

The Communists welcomed him

LOL Ho was from France himself. Commies claiming they want ' independence' is just a bad joke. He wanted to be a dictator, period. He was a commie before he ever left France. He was giant joke, which was why he was laughed off.
 

rightwinger

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LOL Ho was from France himself. Commies claiming they want ' independence' is just a bad joke. He wanted to be a dictator, period. He was a commie before he ever left France. He was giant joke, which was why he was laughed off.
He was laughed off because they didn’t think yellow people were capable of ruling themselves
Ho pleaded with the American ideals of freedom and liberty

The US sided with Colonialism
 

DudleySmith

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He was laughed off because they didn’t think yellow people were capable of ruling themselves
Ho pleaded with the American ideals of freedom and liberty

The US sided with Colonialism
More rubbish. U.S. policy was anti-colonialist, while the Commies were busy racing in and setting up their own colonies. As usual you keep posting last with nonsense.
 
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Otis Mayfield

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After WWII Ho pleaded with the Western Powers for independence
They laughed him off

The Communists welcomed him

ho-chi-minh-telegram-truman-l.jpg


The Vietnamese were fighting a revolution to free themselves from French tyranny, just as we fought a revolution to free ourselves from British tyranny.

If anyone would've listened, it would've been America.

They say Roosevelt would've backed Ho Chi Mihn against the French but Roosevelt died.
 

rightwinger

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ho-chi-minh-telegram-truman-l.jpg


The Vietnamese were fighting a revolution to free themselves from French tyranny, just as we fought a revolution to free ourselves from British tyranny.

If anyone would've listened, it would've been America.

They say Roosevelt would've backed Ho Chi Mihn against the French but Roosevelt died.
Would have saved millions of lives
 

Mushroom

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Meanwhile, like all colonizers, the French raped Vietnam for everything they could.

That reminds me of another quote.

“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

Colonization was largely a two-way street. Yes, they exploited the colony for resources (and I use the term in the accurate term not the political one), but also in return raise the standard of living for the colony. Providing the resources to boost their own population, infrastructure, and economy in exchange for the resources.

No, you are confusing France in the 1900's with Spain in the 1500's. Where they did indeed almost literally rape their colonies, making most of those that lived there slaves with no control over their lives. But by the 20th century, most nations that still followed colonization had changed drastically. Take almost any city street in Saigon before WWII and drop it into Paris, and they would have largely looked the same. Motor cars, radios, paved roads and modern buildings. Not the almost primitive agrarian nation that it had been before France moved in. By 1940 it had an expanding industrial capacity, and was seeing the "Urban Shift" from rural areas that was common globally during the "Industrial Revolution" of any nation.

And even their later "Leader" was hardly some poor peasant. Uncle Ho was well educated in French schools, and was from the upper classes. His father was a magistrate and village leader, his sister a clerk for the French Colonial Government, and his brother a medical practitioner. As is typical in all revolutions, it is normally the highest of those not in power that end up taking over. Like the wise men once said in song. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
 

Mushroom

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Viet-nam is the price we paid to keep France out of the Warsaw Pact

Wrong.

France was one of the founding members of NATO in 1949. They were still smarting from their defeat and occupation from WWII, and wanted to be sure that never happened again. It must be remembered, originally NATO was seen more as a way to keep Germany controlled than to keep the Soviets at bay. An extension of the old French-English defense treaty.

The Warsaw Pact was not founded for another 6 years in 1955, in response to NATO. And by that time, France was already out of Indochina.

This is the problem with really bad propaganda. When compared to reality, it is shown to almost always be completely wrong.
 
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Otis Mayfield

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Wrong.

France was one of the founding members of NATO in 1949. They were still smarting from their defeat and occupation from WWII, and wanted to be sure that never happened again. It must be remembered, originally NATO was seen more as a way to keep Germany controlled than to keep the Soviets at bay. An extension of the old French-English defense treaty.

The Warsaw Pact was not founded for another 6 years in 1955, in response to NATO. And by that time, France was already out of Indochina.

This is the problem with really bad propaganda. When compared to reality, it is shown to almost always be completely wrong.


"France was one of the founding members of NATO in 1949."

So? It could've been the First country to leave NATO and side with the Soviets.

There were a lot of communists in France during the 1950s.

Where are your links to reference material? Are we just supposed to take your word? Are you a historian? Do you have a degree?

Are you just making things up as you go?
 

Mushroom

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Where are your links to reference material? Are we just supposed to take your word? Are you a historian? Do you have a degree?

"Making things up".

*shakes head sadly*

This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications.

North Atlantic Treaty Organization charter, dated 4 April 1949. From their own website.

Is this what you do? Start to scream somebody is wrong, then screaming they did not provide a reference to something that should be obvious?

France was a strong opponent to the Warsaw Pact, as one of the goals of that organization was one that France strongly opposed. A reunification of Germany under the control of the Soviet Union (and they even resisted the reunification after East Germany collapsed). As far as my source, mostly it is from being alive during that era, and being in the military. When most people did not even know what NATO is.

Of course, most people today still have no idea what NATO is, or much of anything else. More interested in what the Kardashians are doing and nonsense like that.

If that is how you are going to discuss this, there is really no reason for me or anybody else to continue.

Oh, and maybe you are not aware of this. But France did leave NATO. In 1966, because it refused to add its nuclear weapons into the pool of other NATO members, and refused to allow it's forces to serve under commanders from other nations. But guess what? They did not join the Warsaw Pact, they still remained closely allied with NATO, and still participated in occasional exercises until it rejoined again as a full member in 2009.

Amazing, you scream at me about my degree. Yet apparently you do not even know that France actually did leave NATO, and was out of it for over 4 decades. And never came even close to even thinking about joining the Warsaw Pact.

Maybe you should return to history class.

M63-Dummy-box.jpg
 

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