How responsible is France for the Vietnam War?

[harmonica]

LBJ and McNamara lied

The Truth About Tonkin

What really happened in the Gulf of Tonkin on the night of 4 August 1964? Documents released over the past several years have cleared up the picture.

www.usni.org

50 Years Ago Congress Gave the President a Blank Check for War

The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and the hubris behind it were the linchpins of Johnson’s Shakespearean Vietnam tragedy – and ours as well.

historynewsnetwork.org

They wanted to save Liberalism.

And W lied about Iraq.

Iraq was hindering inspectors - violation of the cease fire

 

[Otis Mayfield]

Gulf of Tonkin?

The North Vietnamese sailors who attacked the USS Maddox with Vietnamese torpedo boats have been videotaped in interviews.

Yes the North Vietnamese did little or no damage to the USS Maddox, but it was an attack.

America could choose how it responded to that attack.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I've never understood why we landed in vietnam. JFK just wanted to kill commies on the cheap. Can't call him a neocon, and there weren't neocons then. But I'm hard pressed to name ANY country that didn't have a post-WWII war of liberation against a western imperialist govt that didn't at least intially go commie. India maybe, but the Brits left without much of a fight, and Britain actually was pretty good at nation building amongst "the wogs."

That's the thing...Ho WON his war against the colonialists at Dien Bien Phu only to have us land on his neck. Ho once said that his country was his ideology..and the commies helped..while the West used him in WWII..and then declared his election invalid--so on to the invasion we went.
JFK wanted to placate de Gaulle...and use Vietnam as place holder in his Geo-political war against the USSR.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Gulf of Tonkin?

The North Vietnamese sailors who attacked the USS Maddox with Vietnamese torpedo boats have been videotaped in interviews.

Yes the North Vietnamese did little or no damage to the USS Maddox, but it was an attack.

America could choose how it responded to that attack.

Of course, the attack was in response to our US-backed attempts at shelling and mortaring the North from patrol boats. The war had already gone 'hot' at that point..and the powers-that-be wished a cause celebre to sell the war to the American public.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

Of course, the attack was in response to our US-backed attempts at shelling and mortaring the North from patrol boats. The war had already gone 'hot' at that point..and the powers-that-be wished a cause celebre to sell the war to the American public.

I don't believe that.

The USS Madox was in international waters. It was spying, but it was in international waters.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I don't believe that.

The USS Madox was in international waters. It was spying, but it was in international waters.

If you do a bit of research you will find that we had been funding and directing military strikes on the North for some time before the Tonkin incident.
Kennedy and McNamara were just looking for an excuse. They got one.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

If you do a bit of research you will find that we had been funding and directing military strikes on the North for some time before the Tonkin incident.
Kennedy and McNamara were just looking for an excuse. They got one.

I think if you're going to make an outrageous claim, it's up to you to defend it.

A Wikipedia article at least but a better source would be better.

 

[rightwinger]

That's the thing...Ho WON his war against the colonialists at Dien Bien Phu only to have us land on his neck. Ho once said that his country was his ideology..and the commies helped..while the West used him in WWII..and then declared his election invalid--so on to the invasion we went.
JFK wanted to placate de Gaulle...and use Vietnam as place holder in his Geo-political war against the USSR.

JFK needed to tell deGaulle to go fuk himself

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I think if you're going to make an outrageous claim, it's up to you to defend it.

A Wikipedia article at least but a better source would be better.

Well..search engine works for everyone, Of note...Maddox fired first...warning shots or no. BTW, not an 'outrageous claim'..just because you haven't heard of it.

Gulf of Tonkin incident - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On July 1964, "the situation along North Vietnam's territorial waters had reached a near boil", because of South Vietnamese commando raids and airborne operations that inserted intelligence teams into North Vietnam, as well as North Vietnam's military response to these operations.[5] On the night of July 30, 1964, South Vietnamese commandos attacked a North Vietnamese radar station on Hòn Mê island.[5] According to Hanyok, "it would be attacks on these islands, especially Hòn Mê, by South Vietnamese commandos, along with the proximity of the Maddox, that would set off the confrontation", although the Maddox did not participate in the commando attacks.[5] In this context, on July 31, Maddox began patrols of the North Vietnamese coast to collect intelligence, coming within a few miles of Hòn Mê island.[5] A U.S. aircraft carrier, the USS Ticonderoga, was also stationed nearby.[5]
By August 1, North Vietnamese patrol boats were tracking Maddox, and several intercepted communications indicated that they were preparing to attack.[5] Maddox retreated, but the next day, August 2, Maddox, which had a top speed of 28 knots, resumed her routine patrol, and three North Vietnamese P-4 torpedo boats with a top speed of 50 knots began to follow Maddox.[5] Intercepted communications indicated that the vessels intended to attack Maddox.[5] As the ships approached from the southwest, Maddox changed course from northeasterly to southeasterly and increased speed to 25 knots.[5]
As the torpedo boats neared, Maddox fired three warning shots.[5] The North Vietnamese boats then attacked,[5] and Maddox radioed she was under attack from the three boats, closing to within 10 nautical miles (19 km; 12 mi), while located 28 nautical miles (52 km; 32 mi) away from the North Vietnamese coast in international waters.[25] Maddox stated she had evaded a torpedo attack and opened fire with its five-inch (127 mm) guns, forcing the torpedo boats away. Two of the torpedo boats had come as close as 5 nautical miles (9.3 km; 5.8 mi) and released one torpedo each, but neither one was effective, coming no closer than about 100 yards (91 m) after Maddox evaded them.[25] Another P-4 received a direct hit from a five-inch shell from Maddox; its torpedo malfunctioned at launch.[25] Four USN F-8 Crusader jets launched from Ticonderoga and 15 minutes after Maddox had fired her initial warning shots, attacked the retiring P-4s,[5] claiming one was sunk and one heavily damaged. Maddox suffered only minor damage from a single 14.5 mm bullet from a P-4's KPV heavy machine gun into her superstructure. Retiring to South Vietnamese waters, Maddox was joined by the destroyer USS Turner Joy.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident, 50 Years Ago

One real and one phantom firefight embroiled the United States in the Vietnam War.

www.history.com

The rebels continued gaining ground, however, both before and after U.S. officials sanctioned a coup in which Diem was murdered.

At this point, U.S. involvement in Vietnam remained largely in the background. But in the pre-dawn hours of July 31, 1964, U.S.-backed patrol boats shelled two North Vietnamese islands in the Gulf of Tonkin, after which the Maddox headed to the area. As it cruised along on August 2, it found itself facing down three Soviet-built, North Vietnamese torpedo boats that had come out to chase it away. The Maddox fired first, issuing what the U.S. authorities described as warning shots. Undeterred, the three boats continued approaching and opened up with machine-gun and torpedo fire of their own. With the help of F-8 Crusader jets dispatched from a nearby aircraft carrier, the Maddox badly damaged at least one of the North Vietnamese boats while emerging completely unscathed, except for a single bullet that lodged in its superstructure.
The Johnson administration also described the two attacks as unprovoked; it never disclosed the covert U.S.-backed raids taking place. Another problem: the second attack almost certainly never occurred. Instead, it’s believed that the crewmembers of the Maddox mistook their own sonar’s pings off the rudder for North Vietnamese torpedoes. In the confusion, the Maddox nearly even fired at the Turner Joy. Yet when U.S. intelligence officials presented the evidence to policy makers, they “deliberately” omitted most of the relevant communications intercepts, according to National Security Agency documents declassified in 2005. “The overwhelming body of reports, if used, would have told the story that no attack had happened,” an NSA historian wrote. “So a conscious effort ensued to demonstrate that an attack occurred.” The Navy likewise says it is now “clear that North Vietnamese naval forces did not attack Maddox and Turner Joy that night.”

Vietnam War: An Overview of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred on Aug. 2 and 4, 1964, and saw U.S. naval forces engage North Vietnamese patrol boats.

www.thoughtco.com

Shortly after taking office following the death of President John F. Kennedy, President Lyndon B. Johnson became concerned about South Vietnam's ability to fend off the Communist Viet Cong guerillas that were operating in the country. Seeking to follow the established policy of containment, Johnson and his Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, began increasing military aid to South Vietnam. In an effort to increase pressure on North Vietnam, several Norwegian-built fast patrol boats (PTFs) were covertly purchased and transferred to South Vietnam.
These PTFs were manned by South Vietnamese crews and conducted a series of coastal attacks against targets in North Vietnam as part of Operation 34A. Originally begun by the Central Intelligence Agency in 1961, 34A was a highly-classified program of covert operations against North Vietnam. After several early failures, it was transferred to the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group in 1964, at which time its focus shifted to maritime operations. In addition, the US Navy was instructed to conduct Desoto patrols off North Vietnam.

 

[whitehall]

North Vietnam invaded the South and LBJ decided to flex his muscles so he created a faked "crisis" in the Tonkin Gulf and the liberal media that never saw a democrat it didn't like went along with the charade. LBJ set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. The dirty little secret is that the Generals were shoved aside and the CIA clerks and jerks were pretty much in charge of the strategy. Just when it seemed that we could actually pull it off after Tet, LBJ lost his nerve. Ultimately democrats and the media managed to blame the whole thing on Nixon.

 

[cnm]

I've never understood why we landed in vietnam.

Because Eisenhower stopped the promised election as Ho would have won it. I mean, America couldn't allow democracy...

 

[Otis Mayfield]

North Vietnam invaded the South and LBJ decided to flex his muscles so he created a faked "crisis" in the Tonkin Gulf and the liberal media that never saw a democrat it didn't like went along with the charade. LBJ set the rules so that the U.S. could win every battle and still lose the war. The dirty little secret is that the Generals were shoved aside and the CIA clerks and jerks were pretty much in charge of the strategy. Just when it seemed that we could actually pull it off after Tet, LBJ lost his nerve. Ultimately democrats and the media managed to blame the whole thing on Nixon.

Gulf of Tonkin wasn't fake. They've interviewed the North Vietnamese who crewed the torpedo boats who attacked the USS Maddox.

 

[DudleySmith]

Mmmm, Tet was organized by the NVA. Both NVA troops and Viet Cong fought in Tet.

The Vietnamese leadership knew Ho Chi Mihn would be against Tet so they sent him on a diplomatic mission to China. They sent their best general to Bulgaria too.

They launched Tet, it was a huge failure.

But yeah, Tet was a good propaganda victory.

Mmmm, it was a Viet Cong offensive, and it was their last shot. The NVA came in when it was clear the VC lost , and lost badly. The left wing press made it a 'victory', true enough, even though it was a major setback for the Reds.

 

[DudleySmith]

Gulf of Tonkin wasn't fake. They've interviewed the North Vietnamese who crewed the torpedo boats who attacked the USS Maddox.

And a similar incident a couple of days earlier as well.

 

[DudleySmith]

I've never understood why we landed in vietnam. JFK just wanted to kill commies on the cheap. Can't call him a neocon, and there weren't neocons then. But I'm hard pressed to name ANY country that didn't have a post-WWII war of liberation against a western imperialist govt that didn't at least intially go commie. India maybe, but the Brits left without much of a fight, and Britain actually was pretty good at nation building amongst "the wogs."

WE had alllies in the region; abandoning Nam would have wrecked the SEATO mutual defense treaties, and left Taiwan insecure and at Red Chinese mercy. Of course commies would have loved that. We also averted a Soviet-Chinese border war as well in the early 1960's by making both countries having to set that aside. Left wing dopers of course are perfectly willing to sell out anybody and everybody to keep from being personally inconvenienced in any way. Mindless self-indulgence and making murdering drug cartel vermin immensely rich and taking over entire countries is all they were interested in, whether hippie dopers or 'libertarians'.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

Mmmm, it was a Viet Cong offensive, and it was their last shot. The NVA came in when it was clear the VC lost , and lost badly. The left wing press made it a 'victory', true enough, even though it was a major setback for the Reds.

more than 80,000 PAVN/NLFSV troops struck more than 100 towns and cities, including 36 of 44 provincial capitals, five of the six autonomous cities, 72 of 245 district towns, and the southern capital.

PAVN = Peoples Army of Vietnam "North Vietnamese Army"
NLFSV = National Liberation Front for South Vietnam or "Viet Cong"

​

Tet Offensive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DudleySmith]

more than 80,000 PAVN/NLFSV troops struck more than 100 towns and cities, including 36 of 44 provincial capitals, five of the six autonomous cities, 72 of 245 district towns, and the southern capital.

PAVN = Peoples Army of Vietnam "North Vietnamese Army"
NLFSV = National Liberation Front for South Vietnam or "Viet Cong"

​

Tet Offensive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again, the offensive was launched by the VC, not the NVA. PAVN was just logistical supply and political watchdogs, and in any case they didn't lead, and in fact were driven back into Cambodia later. The VC were crushed, finished as even guerilla units,so obviously the PAVN's weren't a major invasion force until later,after Tet. You might as well claim the Soviets invaded, too, since there were a few Soviet advisors running around as well.

 

[Turtlesoup]

I think France was responsible right up to Dien Bien Phu. After their defeat..The US made their own choice to engage. The US Vietnam war was entirely the US's fault. The faulty Domino theory and a desire to make some money were our motives.

Americas fault? Try the damn CATHOLICS and our catholic war mongering alcholic Kennedy's.

 

[frigidweirdo]

France was entirely responsible for the Vietnam War
The US was responsible for supporting French Colonial claims and supporting a corrupt S Vietnamese regime

Well, France isn't responsible for the US going in. That was the US's fault.

However France was responsible for the conditions that led up to it.

 

[cnm]

WE had alllies in the region

Whose arms you had to twist vigorously to get token contributions. None of them wanted your stupid unwinnable war.