how much warming from adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere is what we

[PMZ]

Dengue, and malaria would be things of the past had misguided envirowackos not banned DDT.

This is how the nutball right-wing-fringe political cult works. The cultists aren't permitted to only embrace one single retarded conspiracy theory. They're mandated to embrace every last one of them.

I'm sure that if a good journalist had interviewed the people at Jonestown before the Kool Aid party the same thing would have been revealed. The cult package isn't a single belief but a tall stack of lies built on the first one. A small seemingly innocuous version of truth that's easily swallowed. The next one is a little bit bigger leap of faith but acceptable because the first lie proves it. And the beat goes on. And on. And on.

The media carrot is the lie that this is what smart people believe. The stick is that you don't want to have anything to do with those other people. The socialists. The intellectuals. The other races. The other religions. The union members. The politicians. The liberals for God's sake. People who don't worship at the Church of the NRA. The environmentalists. Muslims. Democrats. Yankees.

Worked for Hitler.

What saved us from being engulfed by the cult was good old democracy. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not enough of them.

Now that they're on the sidelines, and the country has mostly recovered from their onslaught, there's much work to be done. Many problems to be solved, the result of their let's ignore them and maybe they'll go away irresponsibility.

But, don't expect their whining to stop. It's all that they have.

 

[gslack]

Dengue, and malaria would be things of the past had misguided envirowackos not banned DDT.

This is how the nutball right-wing-fringe political cult works. The cultists aren't permitted to only embrace one single retarded conspiracy theory. They're mandated to embrace every last one of them.

I'm sure that if a good journalist had interviewed the people at Jonestown before the Kool Aid party the same thing would have been revealed. The cult package isn't a single belief but a tall stack of lies built on the first one. A small seemingly innocuous version of truth that's easily swallowed. The next one is a little bit bigger leap of faith but acceptable because the first lie proves it. And the beat goes on. And on. And on.

The media carrot is the lie that this is what smart people believe. The stick is that you don't want to have anything to do with those other people. The socialists. The intellectuals. The other races. The other religions. The union members. The politicians. The liberals for God's sake. People who don't worship at the Church of the NRA. The environmentalists. Muslims. Democrats. Yankees.

Worked for Hitler.

What saved us from being engulfed by the cult was good old democracy. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not enough of them.

Now that they're on the sidelines, and the country has mostly recovered from their onslaught, there's much work to be done. Many problems to be solved, the result of their let's ignore them and maybe they'll go away irresponsibility.

But, don't expect their whining to stop. It's all that they have.

And there it is.. You have run the full gamut of BS now, you managed to squeeze in a Hitler reference.. Nice way to show yourself for the useless troll you are... I already knew you were not to be taken seriously, but now pretty much everyone else does too.. Except for the other you or clones..

 

[SSDD]

A really dumb question, as the answer is meaningless. Your part of the world is a tiny part of the world, and it being safe has little to do with the harm of global warming.

I never claimed my part of the world was going to be safe. I asked what you warmists believe it would look like with a 2 degree rise in the global mean. The fact that none of you can even begin to describe how it might change speaks volumes. If you can't even speak to my little corner of the world, how do you expect to be taken seriously when talking about the whole world?

[Because we recognize your attempt at deflection, and are not willing to play along with your deliberate distortion of our position. _You_ are the only one claiming total catastrophe. That's your problem, not ours. If you denialists are going to shriek and panic hysterically, it's not going to be possible to speak with you.

Not distortion...actual engagement on what you people believe will actually happen if the temperature increases 2 degrees. When called on actual results of such a rise, you can't even begin to discuss the issue. You dodge, rant, and deflect rather than engage the question.

[Depends where you are. In the southwestern and central west USA, rising temps means more drought. In the southeast, rising temps means more flooding.

That's not what the peer reviewed published studies I provided above say. In typical fashion, you provide a study that is nothing more than the output of compuer models that predict the catastrophe they are told to predict. I provided studies based on actual observation that find that the warmer it gets, the shorter, and less severe droughts are. Observation vs computer models and the models fail again.

[Droughts have, for the most part, become shorter, less frequent, and cover a smaller portion of the country over the last century. The main exception is the Southwest and parts of the interior of the West, where, notwithstanding increased precipitation (and in some cases increased soil moisture and runoff), increased temperature has led to trends in drought characteristics that are mostly opposite to those for the rest of the country especially in the case of drought duration and severity, which have increased.

The peer reviewed studies I provided say exactly the opposite.

[Yep. The aquifiers haven't run dry before. That's what long-term drought does, combined with the pumping out the aquifiers.

And they haven't run dry now either. Blaming water use by a growing population is yet another smoke and mirror tactic.

[No. The aquifiers have never run dry before.

And again, they haven't run dry now either.

[You're going to lime most of northern Canada? Um ... sure. Yes, that will turn the quicksand into solid soil right off.

We limed most of the southeast farmland. It isn't anything new....and 200 years ago, there was a whole lot more swamp land here. So far, you haven't made any headway towards proving that farming would have to move north over a 2 degree increase in the global mean temperature.

As I pointed out already, if you look at the northernmost and southernmost areas of production for most money crops in the US, you will find more than a 2 degree spread so what makes you think that a 2 degree increase would force agriculture to move?

 

[SSDD]

Dengue, and malaria would be things of the past had misguided envirowackos not banned DDT.

This is how the nutball right-wing-fringe political cult works. The cultists aren't permitted to only embrace one single retarded conspiracy theory. They're mandated to embrace every last one of them.

The hard fact remains that not so very long ago, malaria was a severe health problem in the southeastern US. It isn't any more and the reason, while you may not like it is because the threat was eliminated through the use of DDT. No malaria, and oddly enough, no extinct birds.

 

[SSDD]

And there it is.. You have run the full gamut of BS now, you managed to squeeze in a Hitler reference.. Nice way to show yourself for the useless troll you are... I already knew you were not to be taken seriously, but now pretty much everyone else does too.. Except for the other you or clones..

Don't feed teh troll. He isn't worth the band width it takes to reply to his comments. Several of us have tried to actually engage him on various topics and all he seems to be able to do is tell you that it would be pointless for him to talk to you because you wouldn't understand what he has to say.

Clearly the sock of one of the more intellectually challenged members of the warmer cult.

 

[PMZ]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

 

[gslack]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

 

[westwall]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

 

[PMZ]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

I'm very comfortable with my positions. I can defend them. They are in support of my country. They are honorable.

You, on the other hand, are regarded as a sock puppet not in the sense of an abuser of message boards, but in the real sense of being a dittohead. Given to the thought from others. Incapable of independent thought.

You are redundant. Nobody needs you to parrot Rush's thoughts. They were wrong when he said them. They are still wrong when you say them.

I remember when America was the land of the free. You are living denial of that position.

The country has left you behind for a reason. You are baggage. You are the past. You are over.

Extinction awaits those who are unable to adapt.

 

[PMZ]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

Run, run, run. When fight or flight kicks in, don't even think, just run and hide. if you don't, learning might eat you alive.

Newspeak. Ignorance is knowledge. Flight is fight. Denial is science. Freedom is slavery. Up is down. East is west.

Pitiful.

 

[westwall]

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

Run, run, run. When fight or flight kicks in, don't even think, just run and hide. if you don't, learning might eat you alive.

Newspeak. Ignorance is knowledge. Flight is fight. Denial is science. Freedom is slavery. Up is down. East is west.

Pitiful.

Yes, you are indeed pitiful. No scientific reasoning utters from your computer, no scientific thought ever enters your brain, you are a parrot repeating whatever your masters feed you.
You are a succubus, a time waster, you educate not at all, you learn not at all, you exist merely to suck the life from those who oppose your masters.

Goodbye troll, I am not running and hiding, I just am choosing to no longer allow you to suck up my time. You are a worthless critter that I no longer choose to deal with due to your innate inability to refrain from lying, and your pathological intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Saigon]

If indeed the Earth is still in a warming cycle, and even if human activity is having an affect on that, it is obvious that the current silly authoritarian and coercive measures to deal with it are not working. It makes a whole lot more sense to me to focus most of our research into helping people adapt to climate change rather than try to change our climate.

Let's use government and science to help people, not enslave them or force them to hand over their liberties to powers that so far have not shown me that they have my best interests at heart.

What is "coercive" about capitalism and free trade?

I'd love to see evidence of quotes from you supporting the use of research to help society adapt to a warmer climate - if you are honest, I think you will admit that you would oppose any such moves, just as you oppose climate change solutions from the private sector.

The only policy you will support involves doing nothing at all - a policy which will pass enormous financial burden on the next generation.

 

[Saigon]

SSDD -

As I explained earlier, malaria, leshmaniasis and cholera were eradicated from some areas by improved farming practices and by changes in waste water treatment etc, but the key factor remains climate. Many of the diseases I mentioned have never existed in the US.

Malaria remains a threat across vast swathes of the world not because farm practices are not adequate, but because natural waterways, swamps and deltas can not be rendered mosquito-free without the wholesale destruction of the ecosystem.

We also know that pesticides are not an ideal solution to anyone who values human life.

There is every chance that some tropical diseases could return to the US, and at the moment the US is ill-equipped to deal with increased incidence, of, for instance, dengue fever.

 

[Saigon]

I got an actual chuckle when he said that we should look at this with an open mind. Worst thing he can threaten us with if the temperature increases is bugs. Malaria, etc...I guess he doesn't know that malaria used to be a real problem down here in the south but we eliminted the problem.

.

Um...no...that isn't a very honest statement, is it?

I listed a number of factors which are already occuring in the US - droughts being the obvious one, but also increased storm intensity and rising temperatures.

You have to use a little common sense here - the US just experienced its hottest year on record and the most expensive drought in US history, and you don't think that is a problem worth even mentioning?

 

[westwall]

I got an actual chuckle when he said that we should look at this with an open mind. Worst thing he can threaten us with if the temperature increases is bugs. Malaria, etc...I guess he doesn't know that malaria used to be a real problem down here in the south but we eliminted the problem.

.

Um...no...that isn't a very honest statement, is it?

I listed a number of factors which are already occuring in the US - droughts being the obvious one, but also increased storm intensity and rising temperatures.

You have to use a little common sense here - the US just experienced its hottest year on record and the most expensive drought in US history, and you don't think that is a problem worth even mentioning?

Both statements are completely untrue. Hansen stated in a peer reviewed paper that last year was 9th warmest (he is the original source for all US temp data sets), and corrected for inflation the Dust Bowl of the 1930's is orders of magnitude more severe.

Do get your facts straight.

 

[gslack]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

I'm very comfortable with my positions. I can defend them. They are in support of my country. They are honorable.

You, on the other hand, are regarded as a sock puppet not in the sense of an abuser of message boards, but in the real sense of being a dittohead. Given to the thought from others. Incapable of independent thought.

You are redundant. Nobody needs you to parrot Rush's thoughts. They were wrong when he said them. They are still wrong when you say them.

I remember when America was the land of the free. You are living denial of that position.

The country has left you behind for a reason. You are baggage. You are the past. You are over.

Extinction awaits those who are unable to adapt.

And there it is again, grandstanding and nonsense...

Defend the claim then, start now... Ya can't socko, we know...

Now you try the old politicians best friend. Speak of "america" and say a lot of words like "land of the free" and try and spin your BS into a matter of patriotism... ROFL.. Not a genuine bone in your body is there?

Dude you're not even real, you're so phony you don't even know what part of you is real any more. Freaking used car salesman of the environmental web forums.. ROFL

 

[IanC]

I believe that you are looking at the picture incorrectly.

Let's try a mind experiment.

Let's assume that the world including the atmosphere is as it is today, with he sun switched off. Let's replace GHG with a half silvered mirror, transparent to shortwave, instead of the GHG absorption and radiation in all diirections that we know is the truth.

Switch on the sun.

The earth will start warming from the impinging solar energy. When will it stop warming? When the temperature of the surface is hot enough to radiate 396 W/M2 and therefore the net energy out = the energy captured from the sun.

Replace the half silvered mirror with one twice as reflective. What happens? The first thing would be that the net energy out would halve, the world would start warming, until it reaches a new temperature that once again restores the energy out balance with incoming energy.

How many years would that take, and what would be the final temperature?

For others to determine.

there are a few things that you seem to be confused about. solar input is the stable component of the temperature equilibrium, therefore the surface can be a wide range of temperatures depending on the conditions for heat loss. this is an important point! without GHGs to constrain IR radiation from directly escaping to space the surface would be ~minus 18C. the 496W/m2 from the surface is a combination of solar input and charged heat sinks of the ground and atmosphere. it can have many other values but the net output from the earth must equal the net input from the sun ( to a close degree, the conditions are always changing).

you are also confused about CO2 somehow being equivilent to a half-silvered mirror for IR radiation. it is not. the extinction length for CO2 reactive bands of IR is roughly 10 metres. got that? the IR is totally dispersed in random directions in 33 feet, it cannot become any less ordered. if a CO2 molecule has absorbed a suitable IR photon and is vibrating (quantum vibration, not ordinary vibration), then collides with another molecule, that IR quantum becomes part of the overall energy equation and can be emitted as blackbody radiation. if the CO2 molecule simply emits the same type of photon its direction has been randomized. because we dont care about the lateral component, only the vertical component, we say that half goes up and half goes down on avg. there is no 'reflection', only total dispersion, happening constantly.

while I admire your confidence in your ability to think things through, so do a lot of us here on the message board. I think you need to delve a little deeper because your posts have been very simplistic and in many cases have significant errors in them.

First, hopefully you realized that I understand the GHGs absorb and re-radiate, I was using the half silvered mirror as a metaphor. If you find it confusing, it's not a necessary part of the explanation.

From my perspective you are inclined to confuse things with frequency domain stuff that is both confusing and unnecessary. The only relevant commodity is energy, no matter it's form.

Also, you intoduced Trenbarth's energy budget, so I assumed that you bought into his portrayal of reality.

Considering the energy budget and simple physics, I don't see how anybody can, and certainly nobody has, come up with any rational that denies AGW.

GHGs make it harder, considering outgoing longwave radiation, to achieve energy balance. The force that overcomes that additional resistance is the long term average temperature of the earth and atmosphere. With the incoming solar energy the same, and a reduction of outgoing longwave energy, the earth components will warm. There simply is no other possibility to achieve eventual equilibrium.

The dynamics of the transition are very complex, made more so by the reality of daily massive additions to our atmospheric GHGs, but the stable end can only be achieved by a warmer planet and atmosphere.

your half silvered mirror being replaced with a 3/4 silvered mirror is just wrong. a better analogy is a deck of cards. it takes seven shuffles to randomize a deck, shuffling 70 times doesnt make it more random. 10 metres of atmosphere randomizes (disperses) the wavelengths preferential to CO2, the next 10, 100, 1000 metres dont make any significant differences.

the theoretical 1C temp increase per 2xCO2 is based on no change to other parts of the system. but that extra energy (actually decreased loss of energy) will go into other pathways rather than simply only get used to warm the surface. GCMs (general circulation models) are unable to handle water vapour, thermals, clouds, and a host of other local small scale factors. the assumptions made in 5x5 degree, or even 1x1 degree grids make for uncertainties that are far larger than the actual CO2 effect being looked for. there is a slim chance that one of the models may be correct, but that would be more of a lucky guess than an accurate physical description of the climate system.

as an interesting side question.....I wonder how much IR radiation from the Sun gets 'blocked' from entering the lower atmosphere and surface by CO2?

 

[SSDD]

It doesn't take much to get the denial cult off the topic at hand. They are in a defenseless position and they realize it. Rather than learn from their mistakes they run from them.

They and only they are surprised by their irrelevance. They actually thought that they were right at one time. Now it's too late to turn back so they're left with nothing but attitude.

Ever read your own posts? LOL, it's a constant outpouring of circle talk and grandstanding. You say something completely ignorant and obscure having less than the smallest amount of anything coherent much less scientific in it,and when you get called on it or tested, you post a speech containing vague generalities and cries of everyone being in a cult mindset...

ROFL, the only cult mindset here has been you and the endless parade of identical posters just like you. Lets see... Cult mindset checklist.. Circle talking and nonsense? Check.. Believing yourself something greater, smarter, better than anyone with a differing opinion or facts? CHeck.. Illogical ramblings using pseudoscience you pull out of your butt or make up as you go along? Check.. Believing everyone not in with your cult is obviously in a cult? Check... When your belief system is challenged you make large grandiose speeches using the broadest strokes to divert from your shortcomings? Check...

Sounds like you're the cult member socko.. Maybe your loved ones should have an intervention?

Don't feed the troll. West wall was right. Life's to short to waste time on people like that. Save your words for people who will at least try to engage the topic.

 

[Saigon]

Jon -

I am trying to explain this to you as clearly and patiently as I can.

Water is not poisonous.

What happens if you drink 100 litres of it?

 

[IanC]

I didnt ask for a link to Joe's manifesto, i asked for a diagram showing energy flow by different pathways. c'mon now....Joe doesnt even take the water cycle into consideration.

Neither does trenberth.

we all know that sunlight varies according to time and latitude.

And trenberth doesn't take even that into consideration.

according to the Slayers, is the average solar input off by 5%, 10%, 50%? which way?

How does trenberth address that?

I can certainly see the need for two diagrams, night&day, but how many are you proposing?

do you guys really ignore clouds, atmospheric gas composition, ocean currents and other effects?

Which of those are intergal parts of trenberth's cartoon. You are hammering Postma, but his model is superior to trenberths if for no other reason than he considers night and day. Don't hammer postma for not doing this or that when trenberth doesn't do it either. You asked for a better one and Postma's is better.

SSDD- I dont really have anything against the Slayers except that I dont find any of their nitpicking to be useful. Trenberth's cartoon at least gives a general picture of what energy is going where and by what method. I would love it if the slayers did the calculus, broke down the time zones and latitudes, and came back with a defensible study that said "Trenberth is wrong by x amount here, y amount there, and z amount overall". but instead they argue about gravity and ignore atmosphere composition and clouds. and when anyone challenges them to explain themselves they say "can you explain Uranus?"

honestly, I wish them luck. but they only discuss certain issues and are blind to the rest. Joe and Doug seem to be lightweights but Claes has some interesting ideas even if they end up producing the same numbers as standard physics. until they can manage to interact with other scientists they are doomed to cranksville. I asked you to read the Pot Lid Hypothesis, which incorporates what I believe to be some of the strongest points of the slayers and you wouldnt. it is a typical response. accept it all unflinchingly or you can't be part of the group. the mad Hungarian's take on the virial theorum is also captivating, so beautiful you wish it was true, and it may well be. there are lots of ideas out there that are probably partially true but if the authors wont let them sink or swim on their own merits they will not catch on.