How much lithium is needed to replace all internal combustion engines in the world?

[JohnDB]

What some people don't realize is that these electric motors for cars also requires the use of "rare earth magnets" which come from rare earth metals mined in Myanmar...the country on the border with China that has the longest Civil War in the history of the world. What war hasn't destroyed the mining is destroying.

 

[JohnDB]

BTW....rare earth magnets don't last forever either

 

[EvMetro]

:SHUG:

Okay, but it is a reality and addresses the decrease in efficiency resulting from dust.

Look I'm not 100% wacko on "green energy" we have major problems yet to overcome. I do think we will get there - eventually. It's also why the OP's insistence on measuring lithium production based on TODAYS numbers is irrelevant. The measurement is against future production and how that production changes over time as the forces of supply and demand are felt.

IMHO, the major problem right now isn't energy production. The major problem is energy storage for use in off peak production times. Basically being able to time-shift the gathering of green energy and when that energy needs to be consumed. And to do it with a high level of efficiency.

WW

Indeed, the massive amount of grid battery storage that would be needed to cover off peek production of alternative energy like solar give solar a HUGE black eye. The cost and environmental impact of such massive battery storage is ridiculous when you don't need this for ICE engines. It's bad enough to look at the amount of batteries to replace ICE engines but having to have massive grid batteries too compounds the battery needs that this thread is about. Time to rerun that math.

 

[EvMetro]

It's very likely to be a direction we will go in the future once major automakers agree on a standard.

"Very likely to be" means that the battery swap pipe dream is NOT the direction the EV industry is going. The battery swap pipe dream has been around for a long time, it's not the direction the EV industry is going, and it has so many problems that you would need a separate thread to sort that mess out.

 

[WorldWatcher]

"Very likely to be" means that the battery swap pipe dream is NOT the direction the EV industry is going. The battery swap pipe dream has been around for a long time, it's not the direction the EV industry is going, and it has so many problems that you would need a separate thread to sort that mess out.

:Shurg:

Okay, there is a company in California doing it now. Showing it is not a pipe dream, it is a challenge that can overcome. Engineering wise it is doable. It's getting the large manufactures of vehicles onboard and to follow a consistent standard.

That is not undoable.

 

[there4eyeM]

There was once a very effective advertisement campaign for a German car that was entirely different from what most Americans were buying.
"Think small".

 

[KissMy]

And don't forget that those panels don't last forever either. Sitting in direct sunlight is a pretty harsh environment for anything to be in. Solar panels wear out and break, just like batteries do. Then there's the cost of replacing, recycling, and disposing of all these solar panels and batteries...

The average ICE vehicle only last 12 years!
The average Solar Panel last double that at 25 years!
The average LiFePO4 battery last 15 years!

 

[EvMetro]

Okay, there is a company in California doing it now. Showing it is not a pipe dream, it is a challenge that can overcome.

Yes, the idea that was never really born, but won't ever die. Battery swapping can be done and it has been done, but this is not the direction that the EV industry is going. Charging stations are being installed everywhere. New EVs are all being built to recharge via the J plug inlet.

Engineering wise it is doable. It's getting the large manufactures of vehicles onboard and to follow a consistent standard.

That is not undoable.

Weather it's doable or not has nothing to do with what direction the EV industry is going. Every last EV being sold as new recharges via the J plug inlet.

Okay, there is a company in California doing it now. Showing it is not a pipe dream, it is a challenge that can overcome. Engineering wise it is doable. It's getting the large manufactures of vehicles onboard and to follow a consistent standard.

That is not undoable.

It's been done, it's doable, but that is not the direction that the EV industry is going. All new EVs are recharging via a charging cord and J plug connection. The future of robotic battery swap stations is a pipe dream.

 

[Flash]

These probably apply to industrial solar panel use. For a homeowner rising it off with a hose a few times a year (in the desert it may be needed more often). Around here (Virginia) there are a couple of houses with solar panels, they get less efficiency in the winter (sun angle) and need to rinse them off in the spring when we get a lot of yellow tree pollen.

Other than they they say their home unit is very low maintenance. They see the biggest benefit in the summer to help cut cooling costs.

WW

I wonder how much that "self cleaning surface" adds to the cost of the panels and if it is really effective? Sounds like a gimmick that probably wouldn't work very well. Probably be useless in a desert environment (where solar is the most effective) without any water droplets to slide down the panels.

I have mentioned this in other Environmental Wacko threads but it is worth repeating here.

I have a good friend who is an executive with Duke Energy. We went to graduate engineering school together and have maintained contact over the years.

I asked him why Duke would be doing something so dumb as to build solar farms. He is a real Engineer and knows the technology is stupid as much as the rest of us Engineers that took a course in Thermal Dynamics.

His answer:

1. Duke, as many other power companies, in the US gets operating and capital funding from mostly European banks. The Euro banks give better rates and conditions than American banks. However, they are operating under the idiotic EU requirements to be Green. Therefore Duke has to demonstrate compliance to the commitment to be carbon neutral by 2050.

2. The stupid US government gives all kinds of environmental incentives, tax breaks and even grants to build the damn things.

3. The utilities companies in the US can mostly cover the cost of the solar and wind farms by increasing rates to the customers. It cost the companies very little.

In other words the decision to created these idiotic solar and wind farms is not based upon sound engineering but by stupid political reason and that will come back and bite us in the ass one of these days.

The Eurotrash are looking for a very cold winter this year because of their stupid decision to go carbon free. Shutting down fossil fuel and nuclear plants while building solar and wind farms and looking to the Russians to provide them with natural gas is going to be a disaster for them.

The same kind of disaster the US will have in a few years because we are just as stupid as they are.

 

[EvMetro]

The average ICE vehicle only last 12 years!
The average Solar Panel last double that at 25 years!
The average LiFePO4 battery last 15 years!

Bullshit.

 

[Flash]

The average ICE vehicle only last 12 years!
The average Solar Panel last double that at 25 years!
The average LiFePO4 battery last 15 years!

There is only a narrow band in the US Southwest were solar is cost effective. All desert where very few people live, like Death Valley.

One of the reasons those Environmental Wacko jackasses in the Potatohead administration are artificially running up the cost of fossil fuel is because these demented assholes want to make solar more cost effective with the much cheaper fossil fuel.

We are screwing our economy because of uneconomical Environmental Wacko policies. Serious stupidity that will do nothing of substance to stop any climate change.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

There is only a narrow band in the US Southwest were solar is cost effective.

LOL. SOrry, no, you are wrong. I live in the PNW and guess what? I haven't paid an electricity bill for several years now.

So much for your "opinion" on a technology you don't seem to know much about.

All desert where very few people live, like Death Valley.

When I lived in SoCal I didn't have to live in Death Valley to enjoy 8 years without an electricity bill due to my solar.

(Do you grow tired of being wrong on everything?)

One of the reasons those Environmental Wacko jackasses in the Potatohead administration are artificially running up the cost of fossil fuel is because these demented assholes want to make solar more cost effective with the much cheaper fossil fuel.

That's because oil has been established as our fuel of choice meaning that it has built-in economic advantages. And that's not even counting the BILLIONS of dollars a year oil companies get in subsidies from tax payers.

Oh, yeah, and then there's the cost of USING the fuel. Something you don't pay for at the pump. It includes environmental damage as well as increased rates of asthma etc.

We are screwing our economy because of uneconomical Environmental Wacko policies. Serious stupidity that will do nothing of substance to stop any climate change.

Like you know a single thing about this topic or economics or any of this! LOL. Trump voters are not the most educated lot.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Bullshit.

I dunno...the numbers seem to check out.

Folks like you at the trailer park probably get longer lifespans out of your beater cars than just 10 years but we are talking "average" here.

As for the other two: well, those numbers are pretty close to what the industry says. I was told my solar panels on my home (european source, Germany I think) are rated to last 20 years. But like your trash beater toyota there rotting in front of the trailer, it gets less efficient with age as one would expect.

But don't get scared. Even people like you with modest incomes won't be negatively impacted as more EV's roll out. Laws like the one in Cali that shut down ICE production after 2025 won't hit you hard because used cars are exempted and will still be on the road for as long as you can keep 'em passing emissions tests.

Don't stress it. Don't worry. You'll be OK/

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I wonder how much that "self cleaning surface" adds to the cost of the panels and if it is really effective? Sounds like a gimmick that probably wouldn't work very well. Probably be useless in a desert environment (where solar is the most effective) without any water droplets to slide down the panels.

Can I just say your posts are hilarious! I live in the PNW where my solar panels work just fine and we get a lot of rain. I still need to clean the panels.

You don't seem to know ANYTHING about this topic.

I have a good friend who is an executive with Duke Energy. We went to graduate engineering school together and have maintained contact over the years.

So you're a trained engineer and you don't know ANYTHING about solar PV? Yikes!

I asked him why Duke would be doing something so dumb as to build solar farms. He is a real Engineer and knows the technology is stupid as much as the rest of us Engineers that took a course in Thermal Dynamics.

You have an engineer friend who doesn't believe solar works because of thermodynamics? Interesting. Because that's utter bs.

2. The stupid US government gives all kinds of environmental incentives, tax breaks and even grants to build the damn things.

Wait'll you learn about the massive subsidies OIL COMPANIES get! LOL.


I am genuinely curious what it is about thermodynamics that makes solar power impossible per your engineer friend. I mean, maybe I'm in a different part of the simulation but they seem to work REALLY WELL FOR ME.

Like I said, I've only paid maybe 3 utility bills in the last 6 years and prior to that in my previous house with solar I went about 8 years without paying an electricity bill. So the solar panels were working for me.

Hmmmm. Methinks you are full of shit.

 

[Flash]

LOL. SOrry, no, you are wrong. I live in the PNW and guess what? I haven't paid an electricity bill for several years now.

So much for your "opinion" on a technology you don't seem to know much about.



When I lived in SoCal I didn't have to live in Death Valley to enjoy 8 years without an electricity bill due to my solar.

(Do you grow tired of being wrong on everything?)



That's because oil has been established as our fuel of choice meaning that it has built-in economic advantages. And that's not even counting the BILLIONS of dollars a year oil companies get in subsidies from tax payers.

Oh, yeah, and then there's the cost of USING the fuel. Something you don't pay for at the pump. It includes environmental damage as well as increased rates of asthma etc.



Like you know a single thing about this topic or economics or any of this! LOL. Trump voters are not the most educated lot.

I lived in the PNW for seven years. It is too far north for solar to be effective, even on the dry side of the Cascades. On the wet side forget about it. I think you are lying or else you are living like a hermit and have no real power usage.

Aren't you the one that claimed one time before that your house only uses a couple of kilowatts of power a day? Hell, my AC uses more than that.

 

[Flash]

Can I just say your posts are hilarious! I live in the PNW where my solar panels work just fine and we get a lot of rain. I still need to clean the panels.

You don't seem to know ANYTHING about this topic.





So you're a trained engineer and you don't know ANYTHING about solar PV? Yikes!



You have an engineer friend who doesn't believe solar works because of thermodynamics? Interesting. Because that's utter bs.



Wait'll you learn about the massive subsidies OIL COMPANIES get! LOL.



I am genuinely curious what it is about thermodynamics that makes solar power impossible per your engineer friend. I mean, maybe I'm in a different part of the simulation but they seem to work REALLY WELL FOR ME.

Like I said, I've only paid maybe 3 utility bills in the last 6 years and prior to that in my previous house with solar I went about 8 years without paying an electricity bill. So the solar panels were working for me.

Hmmmm. Methinks you are full of shit.

Solar is a shitty form of power and you are lying if you say you live in the PNW and it is cost effective for you. Especially because the PNW has some of the cheapest power in the country with hydro and nuclear.

When I live there power was very cheap and there is no way in hell solar was ever going to be cost effective that far north. In the winter the sun hardly comes up before 9 in the morning and goes down by three. Even on the dry side the fall, winter and a good portion of the spring is overcast. On the wet side it is worse.

 

[EvMetro]

I dunno...the numbers seem to check out.

Folks like you at the trailer park...

If you're going to back up KissMy and his blshit numbers, then please post what the average age of a lifepo4 battery pack is. Average years, not max years. Show me this average 15 year expected life.

 

[KissMy]

If you're going to back up KissMy and his blshit numbers, then please post what the average age of a lifepo4 battery pack is. Average years, not max years. Show me this average 15 year expected life.

Car and Driver - The Bureau of Transportation indicates that the average age across the board for vehicles still on the road is just over 11 years according to Autotrader, and the average may be approaching 12 years.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

If you're going to back up KissMy and his blshit numbers, then please post what the average age of a lifepo4 battery pack is. Average years, not max years. Show me this average 15 year expected life.

"Both of the mandated warranty numbers (8 years, 100,000 miles) for EV batteries far exceed the average ICE vehicle drivetrain warranty of 5 years or 60,000 miles. The average lifetime mileage of an ICE vehicle is about 133,000 miles. While experts estimate the average EV battery will last around 200,000 miles, some manufacturers already promise much more than that. " SOURCE

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Solar is a shitty form of power and you are lying if you say you live in the PNW and it is cost effective for you.

LOL. Pick up a phone, call people in the PNW.

or be an ignorant jackass. You're call.

When I live there power was very cheap and there is no way in hell solar was ever going to be cost effective that far north.

Hmmm, so paying no electricity bill for YEARS on end in your estimation is not economically viable?

Are you mentally challenged?

In the winter the sun hardly comes up before 9 in the morning and goes down by three. Even on the dry side the fall, winter and a good portion of the spring is overcast. On the wet side it is worse.

LOL.

You know nothing about any of this stuff.

I'm sittin' here with an actual PV system and no electricity bill and some OUTSIDER is telling me it's not real.

LOLOLOL.

Maybe that kind of mind trick works on simpletons like you. But not on me.