How is "Strong Faith" helping to Bankrupt America's Health Care Delivery Systems?

Dante

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How is "Strong Faith" helping to Bankrupt America's Health Care Delivery Systems?
Our society spends extraordinary amounts of money on care at the end of life. If all that money really did lead to flourishing health, it would be well spent.

But many families choose the uncanny valley without understanding just how hard the journey will be. Raymond Barfield, director of the pediatric palliative-care program at Duke, sees every day what researchers have documented: religious families are consistently the ones most likely to insist on heroic measures and most likely to resist doctors' assessments of viability. It is the people with a "strong faith" who also want the most dramatic technological interventions.

"Medicine has access to massively powerful technologies that can keep molecules going in the right direction," Barfield told me. "And when a family believes healing will come if they just demonstrate enough faith, they often believe they must use every possible technology to keep their loved one alive."

Jahi McMath, Ariel Sharon, and the Valley of Death - TIME


Why does society out up with this? 57.4% of Americans believe a god can heal patients even if doctors have declared further medical treatment pointless. - recent study cited in Time magazine :cuckoo:

Culture warriors wonder why the American medical system is being strained? Bring on the so-called death panels.

Psilly 32:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the culture wars, I will not be in my opposition to society paying for others beliefs: for my own delusions in an all seeing father figure watching over each and every individual believer in the irrationality of intercession prayer and miracles, dictate society pay no matter the costs; irrationality and delusion they comfort me.
 

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How is "Strong Faith" helping to Bankrupt America's Health Care Delivery Systems?
Our society spends extraordinary amounts of money on care at the end of life. If all that money really did lead to flourishing health, it would be well spent.

But many families choose the uncanny valley without understanding just how hard the journey will be. Raymond Barfield, director of the pediatric palliative-care program at Duke, sees every day what researchers have documented: religious families are consistently the ones most likely to insist on heroic measures and most likely to resist doctors' assessments of viability. It is the people with a "strong faith" who also want the most dramatic technological interventions.

"Medicine has access to massively powerful technologies that can keep molecules going in the right direction," Barfield told me. "And when a family believes healing will come if they just demonstrate enough faith, they often believe they must use every possible technology to keep their loved one alive."

Jahi McMath, Ariel Sharon, and the Valley of Death - TIME


Why does society out up with this? 57.4% of Americans believe a god can heal patients even if doctors have declared further medical treatment pointless. - recent study cited in Time magazine :cuckoo:

Culture warriors wonder why the American medical system is being strained? Bring on the so-called death panels.

Psilly 32:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the culture wars, I will not be in my opposition to society paying for others beliefs: for my own delusions in an all seeing father figure watching over each and every individual believer in the irrationality of intercession prayer and miracles, dictate society pay no matter the costs; irrationality and delusion they comfort me.
It isn't "strong in faith". Buy some of the stock of the companies that make medicine. Do you know why? Because no one wants to die so they will take their last dime out of the bank to pay for the medicine these companies make.

"No one wants to die" is a common value that everyone has. It is wrong to blame it on one segment of society.
 
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Dante

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How is "Strong Faith" helping to Bankrupt America's Health Care Delivery Systems?
Our society spends extraordinary amounts of money on care at the end of life. If all that money really did lead to flourishing health, it would be well spent.

But many families choose the uncanny valley without understanding just how hard the journey will be. Raymond Barfield, director of the pediatric palliative-care program at Duke, sees every day what researchers have documented: religious families are consistently the ones most likely to insist on heroic measures and most likely to resist doctors' assessments of viability. It is the people with a "strong faith" who also want the most dramatic technological interventions.

"Medicine has access to massively powerful technologies that can keep molecules going in the right direction," Barfield told me. "And when a family believes healing will come if they just demonstrate enough faith, they often believe they must use every possible technology to keep their loved one alive."

Jahi McMath, Ariel Sharon, and the Valley of Death - TIME


Why does society out up with this? 57.4% of Americans believe a god can heal patients even if doctors have declared further medical treatment pointless. - recent study cited in Time magazine :cuckoo:

Culture warriors wonder why the American medical system is being strained? Bring on the so-called death panels.

Psilly 32:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the culture wars, I will not be in my opposition to society paying for others beliefs: for my own delusions in an all seeing father figure watching over each and every individual believer in the irrationality of intercession prayer and miracles, dictate society pay no matter the costs; irrationality and delusion they comfort me.
It isn't "strong in faith". Buy some of the stock of the companies that make medicine. Do you know why? Because no one wants to die so they will take their last dime out of the bank to pay for the medicine these companies make.

"No one wants to die" is a common value that everyone has. It is wrong to blame it on one segment of society.
"religious families are consistently the ones most likely to insist on heroic measures and most likely to resist doctors' assessments of viability. It is the people with a "strong faith" who also want the most dramatic technological interventions."

what does the above statement have to do with medicine/pharmaceuticals?

No one wants to die? Some do, but the overwhelming majority do not. Not accepting death as a part of life is unhealthy and costly to society. Culture warriors (mostly religious folks) often complain about the costs society must bare from other segments of society. Yet, one of the major costs in our society after military spending is medical costs
 

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
 
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Dante

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
 

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
People go to nursing homes because they either can't cope or have given up. In those places, you have religious or non-religious people and the sentiment is often that they wish to die or that death would be better than some of the things they are going through because those people have almost all given up.

If you're not in a nursing home, it is likely that people haven't given up the will to live.
The default in life is that no one wants to see their mom or their dad die let alone a sister or a brother.

I haven't heard these arguments for forty years that we should keep people on ventilators. Those values are old school. The truth is that when someone is brain dead, you can't tell me that their soul hasn't already left because we don't know what death is.

Because you want to offer care to people who don't work, the doctors will tell me around 70 that I am ineligible for a colonoscopy. I am being counseled to die because you want to make health care available to those who don't work and it could be prevented and I could still be a service to society and I have loved ones who depend on me.
 
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Dante

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
People go to nursing homes because they either can't cope or have given up. In those places, you have religious or non-religious people and the sentiment is often that they wish to die or that death would be better than some of the things they are going through because those people have almost all given up.

If you're not in a nursing home, it is likely that people haven't given up the will to live.
The default in life is that no one wants to see their mom or their dad die let alone a sister or a brother.

I haven't heard these arguments for forty years that we should keep people on ventilators. Those values are old school. The truth is that when someone is brain dead, you can't tell me that their soul hasn't already left because we don't know what death is.

Because you want to offer care to people who don't work, the doctors will tell me around 70 that I am ineligible for a colonoscopy. I am being counseled to die because you want to make health care available to those who don't work and it could be prevented and I could still be a service to society and I have loved ones who depend on me.
being counseled to die or let life take it's course? this isn't about making health care available to others...it is about waste, delusion, faith in nonsense.

If after 70 you have loved ones who are dependent upon you for their survival in life...what a sin
 

Chuckt

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plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
People go to nursing homes because they either can't cope or have given up. In those places, you have religious or non-religious people and the sentiment is often that they wish to die or that death would be better than some of the things they are going through because those people have almost all given up.

If you're not in a nursing home, it is likely that people haven't given up the will to live.
The default in life is that no one wants to see their mom or their dad die let alone a sister or a brother.

I haven't heard these arguments for forty years that we should keep people on ventilators. Those values are old school. The truth is that when someone is brain dead, you can't tell me that their soul hasn't already left because we don't know what death is.

Because you want to offer care to people who don't work, the doctors will tell me around 70 that I am ineligible for a colonoscopy. I am being counseled to die because you want to make health care available to those who don't work and it could be prevented and I could still be a service to society and I have loved ones who depend on me.
being counseled to die or let life take it's course? this isn't about making health care available to others...it is about waste, delusion, faith in nonsense.

If after 70 you have loved ones who are dependent upon you for their survival in life...what a sin
That isn't what I meant.

My grandmother died when I was 5 or 6. I wish I had her help with what she knew and I wish I had her knowledge about life because she was wise.
 
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Dante

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People go to nursing homes because they either can't cope or have given up. In those places, you have religious or non-religious people and the sentiment is often that they wish to die or that death would be better than some of the things they are going through because those people have almost all given up.

If you're not in a nursing home, it is likely that people haven't given up the will to live.
The default in life is that no one wants to see their mom or their dad die let alone a sister or a brother.

I haven't heard these arguments for forty years that we should keep people on ventilators. Those values are old school. The truth is that when someone is brain dead, you can't tell me that their soul hasn't already left because we don't know what death is.

Because you want to offer care to people who don't work, the doctors will tell me around 70 that I am ineligible for a colonoscopy. I am being counseled to die because you want to make health care available to those who don't work and it could be prevented and I could still be a service to society and I have loved ones who depend on me.
being counseled to die or let life take it's course? this isn't about making health care available to others...it is about waste, delusion, faith in nonsense.

If after 70 you have loved ones who are dependent upon you for their survival in life...what a sin
That isn't what I meant.

My grandmother died when I was 5 or 6. I wish I had her help with what she knew and I wish I had her knowledge about life because she was wise.
Apology.

People die. It has been this way since we left the trees in Africa
 

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
it IS crazy.

but as I told before - that is becasue the vast majority of the populace is uneducated due to the dumbing down of the public school system by dimocraps for the last 30 years.

sneer aside, people simply do not understand the concept of the brain death.
 
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Dante

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
it IS crazy.

but as I told before - that is becasue the vast majority of the populace is uneducated due to the dumbing down of the public school system by dimocraps for the last 30 years.

sneer aside, people simply do not understand the concept of the brain death.
the school systems are terrible? does the data show this?

I think media and culture do more to dumb people down. I've seen rational people move to extremely progressive or conservative communities and lose the skill sets they once had. It's called, go along to get along
 

itfitzme

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With today's medical technology we are faced with decisions about life that were beyond our reach. It is an awkard situation when human beings have to make such decisions about someone else.

A personal choice, to live or die, doesn't create much conflict and has been part of the human experience since time began. Do we join the battle? Do we forgo food for the sake of a loved one, a spouse, a child? Do we risk death to save someone? Do we risk death in pursuit of a hobby? Do we kill ourselves for the sake of honor?

Advanced directives are important because they enforce our personal choice when we have reached the point of incapacitation. My mother chose to die of cancer rather than waste time, effort, and money on a foregone conclusion. Quality of life was as important as living.

If you can personally afford it, whether it be for yourself or another, no one is likely to argue with a personal choice to to either die or to continue the struggle.

So the issue comes down to an awkwardness on top of the initial awkwardness that comes from our modern ability to have a choice. It comes down to the issue of whether someone should be compelled to continue efforts to save a life that they are certain cannot be saved.

For the sake of clarity, it really comes down to whether a doctor or hospital should be compelled to keep trying and whether others should be compelled to cover the costs.

A professor of engineering economics related a story to his students. A particular intersection of a city caught the attention of the local residences who felt in needed a stop light. The residences brought the situtation to the attention of the city council. Cities do have limited resources and stop lights do have a real cost. There are hundreds of intersections in any particular city and some manner of decision has to be made as to which intersections get the funds for traffic control.

The discussion got a bit heated and one resident spoke up, asking "Does some one have to die in order for the city to put in a stop light?" The city engineer answered, "No, two." It wasn't the best answer, by far. And it pretty much guaranteed that they got their stop light.

But the reality of the situation is that limited resources require "no-win" decisions be made. Cost benefit analysis requires the unfortunate and distasteful necessity of assigning a dollar value to a human life. It isn't that anyone holds a personal emotional sense that a human life is anything but priceless. Never the less, with a limited budget and hundreds of worthy intersections, we are forced to assign a "value" so that we can compare one intersection to another.

Ignoring the reality of our mortality and the real costs of attempting to avoid it isn't "not making a choice", isn't "leaving it to God's will". It is willfully choosing to accept one situation over another.

Like it or not, putting a traffic light at one intersection is also a choice to not put it at another. Refusing to acknowledge that one has a higher risk of accidents is still a choice. A heart or lung transplant for one patient is a forgone opportunity for someone else. As distasteful, as the competing choices may be, denial and ignorance is no better than flipping a coin. And flipping a coin to decide who gets to live and who gets to die is far more revolting than an informed and intelligent decision.
 

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plenty of leftist Christians and other holy rollers were all for keeping a dead child on ventilation because no matter the cost to society (all those days in the hospital after a death was certified) a god-damned miracle is hoped for. how crazy is that? :eek:
it IS crazy.

but as I told before - that is becasue the vast majority of the populace is uneducated due to the dumbing down of the public school system by dimocraps for the last 30 years.

sneer aside, people simply do not understand the concept of the brain death.
the school systems are terrible? does the data show this?

I think media and culture do more to dumb people down. I've seen rational people move to extremely progressive or conservative communities and lose the skill sets they once had. It's called, go along to get along
yes it does.

and the system was derailed from a very good school system which was here 30-40 years ago.

on bolded part I actually agree, but the media is much dumber by itself than it was even 10 years ago.
 
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Dante

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With today's medical technology we are faced with decisions about life that were beyond our reach. It is an awkard situation when human beings have to make such decisions about someone else.

...

Ignoring the reality of our mortality and the real costs of attempting to avoid it isn't "not making a choice", isn't "leaving it to God's will". It is willfully choosing to accept one situation over another.

Like it or not, putting a traffic light at one intersection is also a choice to not put it at another. Refusing to acknowledge that one has a higher risk of accidents is still a choice. A heart or lung transplant for one patient is a forgone opportunity for someone else. As distasteful, as the competing choices may be, denial and ignorance is no better than flipping a coin. And flipping a coin to decide who gets to live and who gets to die is far more revolting than an informed and intelligent decision.
It is choosing one situation over another -- if you allow belief in miracles and a god figure who sits outside watching over every individual and listening to -- gulp -- prayers. :eek:

your moralistic screed is amusing. thank you :eusa_shifty:
Deciding on putting a traffic light at a particular intersection does not negate putting lights at other intersections, unless of course you only have a choice of one. Jesus, what tricks ones mind can play on oneself.

A particular heart donation is not a minus for everyone on a list. Jesus again!

Flipping a coin as a choice is preferable to ignorance since it involves responsibility and flipping a coin as a choice is preferable to denial, because denial is an active negation of responsibility
 
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Dante

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it IS crazy.

but as I told before - that is becasue the vast majority of the populace is uneducated due to the dumbing down of the public school system by dimocraps for the last 30 years.

sneer aside, people simply do not understand the concept of the brain death.
the school systems are terrible? does the data show this?

I think media and culture do more to dumb people down. I've seen rational people move to extremely progressive or conservative communities and lose the skill sets they once had. It's called, go along to get along
yes it does.

and the system was derailed from a very good school system which was here 30-40 years ago.

on bolded part I actually agree, but the media is much dumber by itself than it was even 10 years ago.
30 - 40 years ago the population was different. try comparing the situation to one with a period of massive immigration of non English speaking populations and more specific data reflecting populations. Your critical thinking skill set is more like those from -- oh wait -- 30 - 40 years ago. :redface:
 

Where_r_my_Keys

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How is "Strong Faith" helping to Bankrupt America's Health Care Delivery Systems?
Our society spends extraordinary amounts of money on care at the end of life. If all that money really did lead to flourishing health, it would be well spent.

But many families choose the uncanny valley without understanding just how hard the journey will be. Raymond Barfield, director of the pediatric palliative-care program at Duke, sees every day what researchers have documented: religious families are consistently the ones most likely to insist on heroic measures and most likely to resist doctors' assessments of viability. It is the people with a "strong faith" who also want the most dramatic technological interventions.

"Medicine has access to massively powerful technologies that can keep molecules going in the right direction," Barfield told me. "And when a family believes healing will come if they just demonstrate enough faith, they often believe they must use every possible technology to keep their loved one alive."



Why does society out up with this? 57.4% of Americans believe a god can heal patients even if doctors have declared further medical treatment pointless. - recent study cited in Time magazine :cuckoo:

Culture warriors wonder why the American medical system is being strained? Bring on the so-called death panels.

Psilly 32:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the culture wars, I will not be in my opposition to society paying for others beliefs: for my own delusions in an all seeing father figure watching over each and every individual believer in the irrationality of intercession prayer and miracles, dictate society pay no matter the costs; irrationality and delusion they comfort me.
"Death Panel" advocacy?

I read this and I think, here's a person who is never too terribly far from being outraged over the notion that that non-believers can't be moral people.

I would argue that relativism, as the basis of socialism and rejecting objectivity, precludes the means for sound morality in the adherents to such.

I would wager that back when it became obvious that socialized medicine required Death Panels, the you pretended to be outraged over the very idea that socialism would ever deny people medical treatment.

Deceit such as this is quite common among relativists.
 
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Vox

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the school systems are terrible? does the data show this?

I think media and culture do more to dumb people down. I've seen rational people move to extremely progressive or conservative communities and lose the skill sets they once had. It's called, go along to get along
yes it does.

and the system was derailed from a very good school system which was here 30-40 years ago.

on bolded part I actually agree, but the media is much dumber by itself than it was even 10 years ago.
30 - 40 years ago the population was different. try comparing the situation to one with a period of massive immigration of non English speaking populations and more specific data reflecting populations. Your critical thinking skill set is more like those from -- oh wait -- 30 - 40 years ago. :redface:
sample bias.

we do not have such a massive immigration now and actually the vast majority of immigrants are pretty well educated - the ones which overstay their visas ( and that is 35-40% of the illegal immigration) are at least high school educated, and majority - university educated. The LEGAL immigration to this country is basically very educated people.
 
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Where_r_my_Keys

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yes it does.

and the system was derailed from a very good school system which was here 30-40 years ago.

on bolded part I actually agree, but the media is much dumber by itself than it was even 10 years ago.
30 - 40 years ago the population was different. try comparing the situation to one with a period of massive immigration of non English speaking populations and more specific data reflecting populations. Your critical thinking skill set is more like those from -- oh wait -- 30 - 40 years ago. :redface:
sample bias.

we do not have such a massive immigration now and actually the vast majority of immigrants are pretty well educated - the ones which overstay their visas ( and that is 35-40% of the illegal immigration) are at least high school educated, and majority - university educated. The LEGAL immigration to this country is basically very educated people.
The vast majority if immigrants are illegal immigrants who cross(ed) the US Mexican border. These people possess a marginal education and below marginal skill sets.

This is among the largest reasons that the 'social justice' system is thoroughly bankrupt.

The simple fact is that the US/Mexican border was open for nearly 200 years without a problem, until the US began to offer the plethora of social subsidies.

The number of legal immigrants is dwarfed by illegal immigration, with the distinction being orders of magnitude.
 
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Mertex

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It has nothing to do with faith.

plenty of our leftard atheists here, on the board, were all in arms to continue the ventilation of the Jahi's body.

since the left is usually more ignorant than the right, it is not surprising.

people do not know basic things - thanks to the derailed by the left public school system of education.
Ha,ha, if that was true, you would be at the top of the list of leftists.....so, you must be the exception on the right?......:lol::lol:
 
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Dante

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yes it does.

and the system was derailed from a very good school system which was here 30-40 years ago.

on bolded part I actually agree, but the media is much dumber by itself than it was even 10 years ago.
30 - 40 years ago the population was different. try comparing the situation to one with a period of massive immigration of non English speaking populations and more specific data reflecting populations. Your critical thinking skill set is more like those from -- oh wait -- 30 - 40 years ago. :redface:
sample bias.

we do not have such a massive immigration now and actually the vast majority of immigrants are pretty well educated - the ones which overstay their visas ( and that is 35-40% of the illegal immigration) are at least high school educated, and majority - university educated. The LEGAL immigration to this country is basically very educated people.
?

"is"????????????????? edumacated?

http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=818#2

http://cis.org/2000-2010-record-setting-decade-of-immigration
 
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