How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

[Mac1958]

Mac, when you write this tripe, "Yes, anyone who doesn't obediently subscribe to your particular worldview has a small brain", you are describing yourself as well.

You're very good at defending your fellow social democrats.

I've posted over 10,000 times. I invite you to show me one (1) time where I said that someone was dumb. Once.

Go ahead Jake, back up your words.

.

 

[Bfgrn]

Yes, Mac is expressing an opinion.

Anyone with even a small brain understands what experience is. It is the result of acquiring skill and knowledge. In EVERY other field and position we consider experience to be a positive attribute. EXCEPT for teachers.

Yes, anyone who doesn't obediently subscribe to your particular worldview has a small brain. Fortunately, I had grown past such thought processes by the time I reached high school, perhaps you will one day.

The length of time that someone does something may or may not correlate to the knowledge and expertise that person has accumulated for that task. Some people just don't improve much, some people actually go in the opposite direction. I can't imagine you don't know this, perhaps you really don't. Fascinating.

Of course, as an obedient hardcore left wing partisan ideologue, you feel an obligation to ignore such obvious facts so that you can defend your "side". I am encumbered by no such obligations. I know that a teacher is not a sacred untouchable, that there are lousy teachers just as there are lousy everything else, and that they must be held immediately accountable for their quality of lack thereof.

But carry on, you have a "side" to spin for.

.

And teacher ARE held accountable. Tenure does NOT prevent ANY teacher from being fired. If you really had "grown past such thought processes by the time I reached high school" you would EDUCATE yourself before spewing knee-JERK emoting and always parroting right wing propaganda.

1) Tenure is EARNED, not just handed out to every teacher who walks through the door.

At most jobs outside the field of education, a newly hired employee may be considered probationary for six months, or even a year.

When teachers are hired, it is common for them to serve as untenured, probationary employees for three or four years. At this point they can be — and often are — dismissed for any reason whatsoever. That time period also gives school administrators an extended opportunity to evaluate a teacher before determining whether or not the school district, at its discretion, should grant the teacher tenure.

2) “Tenure” means that schools can’t fire teachers without a legitimate reason. Tenure mandates that due process be followed before tenured teachers are dismissed. That’s called “just cause” or “good cause.” Tenure requires administrators to notify teachers of performance problems and give them a fair hearing before firing them. That’s called “due process.”

3) What’s the purpose? Tenure simply ensures that employers can’t fire (terminate) teachers for personal or political reasons that have nothing to do with classroom effectiveness or integrity.
Without tenure, proven teachers could be (and are) fired for bogus reasons, including:
• Failing to start a school board member’s child on the basketball team;
• Displaying the “wrong” political yard sign;
• Being the “wrong” age or “wrong” gender, or attending the “wrong” church;
• Teaching a subject that a student, parent, or administrator considers too controversial;
• Voicing an opinion about a particular teaching method or curriculum choice;
• Being a whistleblower on inappropriate conduct by an administrator, another teacher or a student;
• Refusing to alter a grade;
• Being more senior and more expensive to employ than younger teachers.

ref ref

 

[Bfgrn]

Mac, using his BIG brain supports THIS:

Recent examples of good teachers without tenure being fired for bad reasons:

• A nontenured teacher in New York was fired for filing a grievance challenging his principal’s decision not to discipline a student who had thrown books at the teacher during class.

• A nontenured teacher in Ohio was fired for selecting controversial books—Fahrenheit 451 and Siddhartha—for her high school English class.

• In Alabama, a nontenured high school teacher was terminated for expressing concerns about the fairness of cheerleader tryouts.

• A nontenured special education teacher who worked for a New York charter school was fired because she complained about discriminatory and illegal conduct toward the school’s special needs students.

• In Michigan, a nontenured special education teacher was fired for complaining about the size of her teaching caseload.

• A nontenured special education teacher in Alabama was fired in retaliation for complaining about the school district’s violations of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

 

[Mac1958]

Mac, using his BIG brain supports THIS:

Recent examples of good teachers without tenure being fired for bad reasons:

• A nontenured teacher in New York was fired for filing a grievance challenging his principal’s decision not to discipline a student who had thrown books at the teacher during class.

• A nontenured teacher in Ohio was fired for selecting controversial books—Fahrenheit 451 and Siddhartha—for her high school English class.

• In Alabama, a nontenured high school teacher was terminated for expressing concerns about the fairness of cheerleader tryouts.

• A nontenured special education teacher who worked for a New York charter school was fired because she complained about discriminatory and illegal conduct toward the school’s special needs students.

• In Michigan, a nontenured special education teacher was fired for complaining about the size of her teaching caseload.

• A nontenured special education teacher in Alabama was fired in retaliation for complaining about the school district’s violations of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Precisely when did I say I have a "big brain", Bfgrn?

And precisely when did I say that I "support" any of those stories, Bfgrn?

Right to the straw man arguments you go.

This is why it's essentially impossible to have a mature, honest conversation with partisan ideologues.

Regarding those stories, I would have to look at both sides of each one before I formulated an opinion. See, many of us want to hear and understand the whole story. Crazy, huh?

.

 

[Theowl32]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

 

[saveliberty]

[QUOTE="Disir, post: 9752154, member: 32913]
In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

No, you aren't saying that the way they live is wrong. Not when shelter is provided. Not when health care is provided. Not when food is provided. Not when health courses with sex ed is provided.[/QUOTE]

When you provide shelter, you are saying the parent is not providing it correctly. When food is given, you are saying the parent is failing at providing food. When you provide sex education, you are saying the parent has not done an adequate job. You are sending a clear message that failure has happened and you have the correct answer. My solution empowers the parent to overcome the situation. The programs you talk about just enable.

 

[Sallow]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

 

[Sallow]

Mac, using his BIG brain supports THIS:

Recent examples of good teachers without tenure being fired for bad reasons:

• A nontenured teacher in New York was fired for filing a grievance challenging his principal’s decision not to discipline a student who had thrown books at the teacher during class.

• A nontenured teacher in Ohio was fired for selecting controversial books—Fahrenheit 451 and Siddhartha—for her high school English class.

• In Alabama, a nontenured high school teacher was terminated for expressing concerns about the fairness of cheerleader tryouts.

• A nontenured special education teacher who worked for a New York charter school was fired because she complained about discriminatory and illegal conduct toward the school’s special needs students.

• In Michigan, a nontenured special education teacher was fired for complaining about the size of her teaching caseload.

• A nontenured special education teacher in Alabama was fired in retaliation for complaining about the school district’s violations of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Exactly.

 

[Bfgrn]

Mac, using his BIG brain supports THIS:

Recent examples of good teachers without tenure being fired for bad reasons:

• A nontenured teacher in New York was fired for filing a grievance challenging his principal’s decision not to discipline a student who had thrown books at the teacher during class.

• A nontenured teacher in Ohio was fired for selecting controversial books—Fahrenheit 451 and Siddhartha—for her high school English class.

• In Alabama, a nontenured high school teacher was terminated for expressing concerns about the fairness of cheerleader tryouts.

• A nontenured special education teacher who worked for a New York charter school was fired because she complained about discriminatory and illegal conduct toward the school’s special needs students.

• In Michigan, a nontenured special education teacher was fired for complaining about the size of her teaching caseload.

• A nontenured special education teacher in Alabama was fired in retaliation for complaining about the school district’s violations of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Precisely when did I say I have a "big brain", Bfgrn?

And precisely when did I say that I "support" any of those stories, Bfgrn?

Right to the straw man arguments you go.

This is why it's essentially impossible to have a mature, honest conversation with partisan ideologues.

Regarding those stories, I would have to look at both sides of each one before I formulated an opinion. See, many of us want to hear and understand the whole story. Crazy, huh?

.

That is why you jumped in with an immature, dishonest and partisan comment.

Mac1958 said: "And much of their "experience" is a result of being protected by tenure."

The only protection "tenure" provides is that due process be followed before tenured teachers are dismissed.

Ironic, NOW you want to 'look' at both sides of the story when it doesn't fit YOUR worldview. Before that, not so much.

Have at it...

ii Weintraub v. Board of Educ. of City School Dist. of City of New York, 593 F.3d 196 (2d Cir. 2010).
iii Evans-Marshall v. Board of Educ. of Tipp City Exempted Village Sch. Dist., 624 F.3d 332 (6th Cir. 2010).
v Gilder-Lucas v. Elmore County Bd. of Educ., 186 F. App’x 885 (11th Cir. 2006).
vi Rodriguez v. International Leadership Charter School, 2009 WL 860622 (S.D.N.Y. 2009).
x Miller v. Houston County Bd. of Educ. 2008 WL 696874 (M.D. Ala. 2008).

 

[Sallow]

There are parents that are never going to get it together. Ever. Some of them are mentally ill. Some of them have very low IQs and some of them are just crap. They aren't ever going to change. Some of them need a best friend for life and as a society we aren't going to be able to afford that.

I think there is a misconception that you can walk in and just educate the parents and there is frustration from all sides when it does not happen. We are going to walk in and we are going to tell you to clean your house and put up this table and to cook these foods and then we are going to smile and walk out the door. You should feel blessed that we chose you. Here have a pamphlet on the importance of reading to your kid, a good nights sleep etc. We are going to tell you how we think you should live.

I think more progress would be made if people stopped trying to fix the problem that they want to fix and paid attention to what the problems are from the perspective of the individuals with the alleged problems.

If the parent is incapable, a foster parent should take over. The incapable parent sterilized. By the way, when you include a family in one of your programs, you ARE saying the way they live is wrong. Then you take over for them with a program.

In a perfect world...

There was a doctor in California that used to pay drug addicts to be sterilized. I thought it was the best program ever.

Of the charities I donate to, this one gets the biggest chunk of my donations. Project Prevention.

You guys are incredible.

Seriously.

 

[saveliberty]

At least we aren't killing the child to help the parent. If you aren't housing, feeding or helping to educate the child, I can only conclude you use the child as a means of income obrained from government sources. That is an abuse and the government has a responsibility to prevent future abuses.

 

[Theowl32]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

You realize in most companies, that the shareholders elect the board of directors....right?

The shareholders essentially hire the CEO.

 

[Sallow]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

You realize in most companies, that the shareholders elect the board of directors....right?

The shareholders essentially hire the CEO.

Board of directors are hired by CEOs or added by other members of the board.

Some companies will send out a mailer to shareholders about CEOs and ask for an affirmation.

But generally? MOST companies hire CEOs through a board of directors.

 

[boedicca]

I certainly appreciate the work teachers do, and I have no problems with giving teachers protections against rash terminations, but I'm not sure how teacher tenure and seniority rules help kids.

They don't help the kids; they help the teachers' unions.

It's not a coincidence that as the unions have gained power and money, that the quality of education has declined.

No, the quality of teaching has not declined.

You are delusional.

Teacher quality most certainly has declined. Women's lib dealt a death blow to teacher quality.

You're wrong. It's the wrong thread to listen to you whine about why you are a failure as a man. Save it.

When an intelligent women had her career options restricted, instead of being a physicist or physician, she went into teaching. The teaching profession benefited immensely from the career restrictions placed on women. Once those restrictions were lifted, the most intelligent women sought careers in other fields and the quality of teachers declined.

Conjecture.

He's actually correct. In the 1950s, most college educated women became teachers or nurses.

 

[Theowl32]

CEO's take money from their stockholders.
Teaches make money.

Based

No, teachers make money!
So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.

What good are CEO's to the public they serve if they have a commodity that is to be used by the public?
We can talk about what ifs!!!! All day!

CEO's aren't any good to the public. The Bush cataclysm should have taught you that.

The Wonder Boys of wallstreet and the auto industry cost this country, trillions.

You liberals and your dumbfuck comparisons. Schools dont make money,they take money.
A CEO that doesnt make the company money gets canned.
A teacher with tenure who sucks doesnt.
Same shit as comparing so called corporate welfare vs. lowlife welfare.
One is a money maker the other a money taker.

So which game are you playing? The one where his/her students go out into the world and do wonderful things and become contributing members of society?
Or are you missing the point entirely?
Because a bad teacher only makes money for herself and is nothing but a drain on society.
Funny ..I make money off stocks. And if it wasnt for the CEO I wouldnt be.
See because this particular CEO is very good at what he does and it's why investment companies and individuals are beating down his door to get in on it.
Do you think if he sucked at being a CEO he'd be successful?

Based on his comment, I am not sure he knows that the stockholders are the ones that hire the CEOs.

Wait what?

No they are not.

CEOs are hired by a board of directors.

You realize in most companies, that the shareholders elect the board of directors....right?

The shareholders essentially hire the CEO.

Board of directors are hired by CEOs or added by other members of the board.

Some companies will send out a mailer to shareholders about CEOs and ask for an affirmation.

But generally? MOST companies hire CEOs through a board of directors.

Sigh. You realize the shareholders in most companies elect the board of directors....right?

 

[boedicca]

Date 2003

You think it's gotten better since then?

ROFLMAO.

Exit exams may be on their way out

Look at how fast testing changes. These are just exit exams. You want to know why there is no money in education? Pay attention to how much is spent on testing and what it actually accomplishes.

No money for education? We spend more than ever on an inflation adjusted basis.

In constant 2000-2001 dollars, we spent $3K per pupil in 1960. By 2000-2001, the per pupil amount increased to $8.8K, an increase of over 190% in CONSTANT DOLLARS.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d01/dt167.asp

Between 2000 and 2009, the CONSTANT DOLLAR spending per pupil (in 2009 dollars) increased by an other 20%, up to $10.6K.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/expenditures/tables/table_06.asp

We spend more money now for worse results. The problem is not lack of money. The problem is lack of educational standards and rigor combined with politically correct multicultralistic pablum which pushes propaganda instead of promoting knowledge.

 

[Synthaholic]

How Does Teacher Tenure and Seniority Help Students?

It doesn't. It helps teachers.

The same way Wall Street bonuses helped market stability after the Bush Financial Crash.

Remember the argument? People were rightly upset that the same people who crashed the economy were still getting their huge bonuses, but the argument was if we don't pay them these bonuses they will leave for European, London, Asian exchanges. We would lose good people! Good people who knew what needed to be done to right the ship!

Remember that? Now just transplant that to teachers.

Oh, so by extent, the tenure and seniority argument is wrong, then.

I'm transplanting the "we need to hold on to good people" argument. People say that tenure fosters laziness but they never make that argument for executives who have been with a company for 10+ years, making millions. I do think there is a danger in it, just as there is that danger of signing a ballplayer to a big money, long-term contract. So many of them don't produce as well, because they aren't as hungry.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

The point is that most of you would not have succeeded to the extent you have is without your teachers' influences in the classrooms and in life. From primary to military to university, I was blessed with great instructors.

I've read a lot of your tripe in the last two weeks. Education failed you.

Teacher tenure does NOTHING to help students , NOTHING. There are a lot of good experienced teachers out there, guess what? They would be retained with or without tenure.

The only people teacher tenure helps is TEACHERS. Primarily teachers who would be fired if not for tenure.

 

[Unkotare]

Good teachers should be leaving the field in droves. They have given up their earning potential in the private sector.... for what? To help a nation? I would never think of it.

You would never think of helping your nation?

???

 

[boedicca]

It's a study from 2013, as it clearly says. If you want to know what ratio of high school students are learning disabled or have cognitive abilities, go look it up your self. I'm not your internet research assistant.

I'm suspect of such definitions given how special ed is abused these days...

It's a more-than-appropriate question, since students with disabilities are now mainstreamed, they might be lumped into the study.

Then look it up yourself. This is a DOE study. Given the government bias to promote education, I would find it highly unlikely that they oversampled kids with learning disabilities in order to make functional illiteracy look worse than it is.

I just gave you the link with the last tests done.

Groovy. Go ahead and read up then.

For my part, a 19% functional illiteracy rate among High School GRADUATES is an Epic Fail.

It's not just functional illiteracy, take a look:

With a 3.0 grade point average anchoring a solid academic record, Robyn Collins, 18, has big plans once she graduates from Reed High School in Sparks, Nev. She intends to spend several months in National Guard boot camp before taking advantage of a state scholarship to go on to college.
The only problem is that she might not graduate from high school.

Collins is among 2,195 students -- 12 percent of the state's senior class -- who have completed all their course work requirements but will not receive high school diplomas this spring because they have not passed the math portion of Nevada's high school graduation test. Instead, they will be awarded certificates of attendance, which often are not recognized by employers or four-year colleges.

Instituted as part of the reforms designed to shore up sagging confidence in public education, the latest generation of high school exit exams is stirring a backlash across the country. Legislators and educators in a growing number of states, including Nevada, Florida, Massachusetts, California, North Carolina and Florida, are facing pressure to delay or scrap the tests because of the number of students who are failing them.
​

Try some questions yourself:

How do you maintian a 3.0 without being able to pass such a simple exam? Seriously

Easy Peasy: Grade Inflation and Social Promotion.