How do they have shootings in Britain with their wonderful gun control laws. Oh...that's right, gun control for people who don't use guns for crime

[Donald H]

As you say, there have been always been wars but mass shootings seem to be a recent thing.

Yes, and countries that have very high murder by gun rates, could be those countries that have been starting the most wars.
It's not productive of 2A's purpose to ignore a culture of war.

 

[2aguy]

So before that there was no gun violence? What did the Untouchables do with all their free time?

There was gun violence but the levels were very low....going into the 1960s......then as the democrats destroyed our cities, from mid 1960s on, the level of gun violence increased until the 1990s when states began to pass concealed carry laws, and we started locking up violent criminals for life......instead of releasing them the day of their arrest for gun crimes with no cash bail......

Again....

Please explain...

We now have 600 million guns....more than ever before, and over 22 million people now carry guns for self defense, with about 16 million carrying guns every day.....

The gun murder and gun suicide rates in the U.S. both remain below their peak levels. There were 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020, below the rate of 7.2 recorded in 1974.


What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

 

[2aguy]

I believe we still have more of everything on a per capita basis.

We have more knife murder than Britain has total murders........because our criminals intend to murder, not wound.

 

[2aguy]

Please try to stay on the topic you've created.

How do they have shootings in Britain with their wonderful gun control laws.​

We're going to have to take the statistical evidence into consideration first, then perhaps we can move on to finding some answers.

I'm willing to consider your idea of the democrats being responsible. But you're going to have to at least acknowledge that the left's emphasis on rehabilitation has produced the results we're aiming at achieving for America.

There is nothing to acknowledge on behalf of the democrats or their policies...they are driving the violence in this country.

 

[2aguy]

As you say, there have been always been wars but mass shootings seem to be a recent thing.

The people murdered in Europe were not casualties of war....they were innocent men, women and children rounded up by the socialists, taken into forests or sent to death camps and murdered...........

15 million in just 6 years.

Total gun murder in the entire 246 year history of the U.S.?

Around 2,460,000


Big difference.

 

[Donald H]

There is nothing to acknowledge on behalf of the democrats or their policies...they are driving the violence in this country.

I have no interest in defending either or your political parties.

But I'll consider it to be progress in at least acknowledging that the problem exists in America, far, far out of proportion to any other civilized first world country.

Can we move on to:

How do they have shootings in Britain with their wonderful gun control laws.​

And so even though you categorized Britain's gun control laws as 'wonderful', I'm aware that it was meant as sarcasm. And so some other answer to the question is needed?

PLease stay on topic by trying with me to answer the question.

If the problem is on the increase in Britain, out of proportion to other countries, I'll offer the explanation that it's due to their 'huge increase in their culture of wars and murder abroad'.

Britain has followed America so closely in an attempt to be America's lapdog. It would be reasonable to expect they would start slaughtering their own with thier limited number of guns too.

The number of guns in Britain has increased dramatically of late.

A word or two on Canada's increasing gun murder rate. It is exactly proportional to American guns being smuggled into Canada by the good guys, and those evil type of guns turning good guys into bad guys with guns.

But one again, we need to compare America's statistics on gun murder with it's number of guns, in order to answer the question on Britain's 'wonderful' (sic) gun control.

 

[alang1216]

There was gun violence but the levels were very low....going into the 1960s......

I was unable to verify your numbers. Please point me to the data.

then as the democrats destroyed our cities, from mid 1960s on, the level of gun violence increased until the 1990s when states began to pass concealed carry laws, and we started locking up violent criminals for life......instead of releasing them the day of their arrest for gun crimes with no cash bail......

The Dems have controlled most large Urban area from the 1960s until today. Can you provided a causation between gun violence and CC laws?

 

[alang1216]

We have more knife murder than Britain has total murders........because our criminals intend to murder, not wound.

What is that based on?

 

[Donald H]

I was unable to verify your numbers. Please point me to the data.


The Dems have controlled most large Urban area from the 1960s until today. Can you provided a causation between gun violence and CC laws?

That's a sub-topic that should be discussed.

I'm going to assume that anybody carrying a concealed weapon on city streets has bad intentions.

I'll leave that as a blanket statement that reflects my opinion, in hopes that some will expand on it.

But I will add that the bad buys with handguns and AR type weapons are the source of all the bad guys that are slaughtering American citizens in record numbers.

 

[Donald H]

There is nothing to acknowledge on behalf of the democrats or their policies...they are driving the violence in this country.

I"ve acknowledged America's hugely out of proportion gun violence. Maybe it's time for you too?

How do they have shootings in Britain with their wonderful gun control laws.​

Can we deal with your topic?

Their socalled 'wonderful' gun control laws are directly proportional to their much lower statistics on gun related slaughter.

 

[2aguy]

What is that based on?

This....

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Guns....10,258

Knives...1,476

Clubs....397

Bare hands....600

Rifles...364
======

Total murder U.K. 2019...

683

Homicides in England and Wales 2022 | Statista

How many homicides are there in England and Wales? There were 710 homicides recorded in England and Wales in 2021/22, an increase of 140 when compared with the previous reporting year, when there were 570 homicides.

www.statista.com

We have almost more empty hand murders than their entire murder rate.

 

[2aguy]

I was unable to verify your numbers. Please point me to the data.


The Dems have controlled most large Urban area from the 1960s until today. Can you provided a causation between gun violence and CC laws?

Yep......and that is when violent crime began to spike in the U.S.......until the 90s when states began to allow concealed carry, but the biggest factor was 3 strike laws that put violent felons in prison for life.....it seems locking up violent criminals lowers the violent crime rate....

In December 2008, a Memphis, TN newspaper published a searchable online database of names, zip codes, and ages of Tennessee handgun carry permit holders. We use detailed crime and handgun carry permit data for the city of Memphis to estimate the impact of publicity about the database on burglaries. We find that burglaries increased in zip codes with fewer gun permits, and decreased in those with more gun permits, after the database was publicized.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29940/w29940.pdf
==============

Social science on the right to bear arms

Lott amicus to New York case...

https://www.supremecourt.gov/Docket...144549202_Amicus brief SWD 7.19.2021 2300.pdf


https://www.jstor.org/stable/1229604

1977-2000
1.5%-2.3% reductions in murder rate
2-3 billion dollars benefit in first 5 years.


Wilson....

Appendix A Dissent--James Q. Wilson | Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review |The National Academies Press

Lott argued that murder rates decline after the adoption of RTC laws even after allowing for the effect of other variables that affect crime rates. The committee has confirmed this finding as is evident in its Tables 6-1, 6-2, 6-5 (first row), 6-6 (first row), and 6-7 (first two rows). This confirmation includes both the original data period (1977-1992) used by Lott and data that run through 2000. In view of the confirmation of the findings that shall-issue laws drive down the murder rate, it is hard for me to understand why these claims are called “fragile.”
-----
In addition, with only a few exceptions, the studies cited in Chapter 6, including those by Lott’s critics, do not show that the passage of RTC laws drives the crime rates up (as might be the case if one supposed that newly armed people went about looking for someone to shoot). The direct evidence that such shooting sprees occur is nonexistent. The indirect evidence, as found in papers by Black and Nagin and Ayres and Donohue [cited in Chapter 6], is controversial. Indeed, the Ayres and Donohue paper shows that there was a “statistically significant downward shift in the trend” of the murder rate (Chapter 6, page 135). This suggests to me that for people interested in RTC laws, the best evidence we have is that they impose no costs but may confer benefits. That conclusion might be very useful to authorities who contemplate the enactment of RTC laws.
----
In sum, I find that the evidence presented by Lott and his supporters suggests that RTC laws do in fact help drive down the murder rate, though their effect on other crimes is ambiguous.

University of Chicago Press Journals: Cookie absent

Abstract​

In 1997, John Lott and David Mustard published an important paper in which they found that right‐to‐carry concealed weapons laws reduce violent crime. Although Lott and Mustard appear to do all possible variations of the analysis, a closer reading reveals that the study might suffer from several possibly important errors. I reestimate the model and check for incorrect functional form, omitted variables, and possible second‐order bias in the t‐ratios. Lott and Mustard's basic conclusions are generally robust with respect to these potential econometric problems. Overall, right‐to‐carry concealed weapons laws tend to reduce violent crime. The effect on property crime is more uncertain. I find evidence that these laws also reduce burglary.

Do Right to Carry Laws Increase Violent Crime? A Comment on Donohue, Aneja, and Weber · Econ Journal Watch : shall-issue, gun control

Nevertheless, when we use the synthetic control model, we find that the claim that RTC laws increase either murder or violent crime is not supported. We find states where crime increased after the implementation of the RTC law, and we find more states in which crime decreased after the law.

Mustard, D. 2001. The impact of gun laws on police deaths. The Journal of Law & Economics, 44(S2): 635-657..

After enactment of the right-to-carry laws, states exhibit a reduced likelihood of having a felonious police death rate and slightly lower rates of police deaths.
-------
Allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons does not endanger the lives of officers and may help reduce their risk of being killed.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ountable_Crimes-Only_a_Count_Analysis_Can_Say
We find that the effects of such laws vary across crime categories, U.S. states, and time and that such laws appear to have statistically significant deterrent effects on the numbers of reported murders, rapes, and robberies. Copyright 2001 by the University of Chicago.

EconPapers: Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness
Overall, right-to-carry concealed weapons laws tend to reduce violent crime. The effect on property crime is more uncertain. I find evidence that these laws also reduce burglary. Copyright 2001 by the University of Chicago.

The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws · Econ Journal Watch : shall-issue, crime, handguns, concealed weapons
Our analysis, as well as Ayres and Donohue’s when projected beyond a five-year span, indicates that shall-issue laws decrease crime and the costs of crime. Purists in statistical analysis object with some cause to some of methods employed both by Ayres and Donohue and by us. But our paper upgrades Ayres and Donohue, so, until the next study comes along, our paper should neutralize Ayres and Donohue’s “more guns, more crime” conclusion.
The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws on Crime: An Exercise in R
his paper reports a replication of their basic findings and some corresponding robustness checks, which reveal a serious omitted variable problem. Once corrected for omitted variables, the most robust result, confirmed using both county and state data, is that RTC laws significantly reduce murder. There is no robust, consistent evidence that RTC laws have any significant effect on other violent crimes, including assault. There is some weak evidence that RTC laws increase robbery and assault while decreasing rape. Given that the victim costs of murder and rape are much higher than the costs of robbery and assault, the evidence shows that RTC laws are socially beneficial.
======

A detailed list of just some of the papers...

https://crimeresearch.org/2020/11/do-right-to-carry-laws-reduce-violent-crime/

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997
The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)
The Concealed‐Handgun Debate, John R. Lott, Jr., Journal of Legal Studies, January 1998
Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998
The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001
Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001
Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001
Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001
Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001
Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001 — see Table 3 on page 679
Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003
Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198
Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004
Abortion and Crime: Unwanted children and out-of-wedlock births, John R. Lott, Jr and John Whitley, October 2006.– page 14, Table 2.
The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001 — page 707, fn. 29
Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns
More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr. — many places in the text.
“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).
“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014
“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014
“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..
“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009
“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013
“On the Choice of Control Variables in the Crime Equation” by Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Oxford Bulletin of Economics and Statistics, Volume 72, Issue 5, pages 696–715, October 2010.
“The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws: A Critique of the 2014 Version of Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang,” Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Econ Journal Watch, January 2018: 51-66.
“Do Right to Carry Laws Increase Violent Crime? A Comment on Donohue, Aneja, and Weber,” Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Econ Journal Watch, Volume 16, Number 1, March 2019: 84-96.
More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.
Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

 

[Donald H]

How do they have shootings in Britain with their wonderful gun control laws.​

This topic wasn't started in the interest of finding any answers to either Britain's shootings or even America's hugely out of proportion mass slaughter with their guns.

As always, it's just another example of the pro-gun nut's attempt to 'troll'.

 

[2aguy]

I was unable to verify your numbers. Please point me to the data.


The Dems have controlled most large Urban area from the 1960s until today. Can you provided a causation between gun violence and CC laws?

Here....

Death rate for homicide in the U.S. 1950-2019 | Statista

In 2019, there were six deaths by homicide per 100,000 of the population in the United States, compared to 5.9 deaths by homicide in the previous year.

www.statista.com

Here.....

Homicide Rate, 1950–2014

Find the homicide rate per 100,000 people for the entire U.S. by year, 1950 to the most recent data available. Homicides include murder and nonnegligent manslaughter.

www.infoplease.com

 

[2aguy]

I was unable to verify your numbers. Please point me to the data.


The Dems have controlled most large Urban area from the 1960s until today. Can you provided a causation between gun violence and CC laws?

A good look at the numbers...

2. The substantial rise in death and assailant rates that began about 1960 for the 15-29 age group; and
=====

The total rate for homicide rose from 4.7 deaths per 100,000 for 1960 to 9.8 deaths for 1973 and to an estimated 10.3 estimated deaths per 100,000 for 1974.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1435670/pdf/pubhealthrep00160-0005.pdf

 

[alang1216]

We have more knife murder than Britain has total murders........because our criminals intend to murder, not wound.

This....

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
[...]
We have almost more empty hand murders than their entire murder rate.

I don't see the connection between the homicide data and your assertion that British criminals only intend to wound?

 

[alang1216]

Here....

Death rate for homicide in the U.S. 1950-2019 | Statista

In 2019, there were six deaths by homicide per 100,000 of the population in the United States, compared to 5.9 deaths by homicide in the previous year.

www.statista.com

Here.....

Homicide Rate, 1950–2014

Find the homicide rate per 100,000 people for the entire U.S. by year, 1950 to the most recent data available. Homicides include murder and nonnegligent manslaughter.

www.infoplease.com

The data you gave included no support for your assertions that Dems caused the problem and concealed carry solved it. You can believe whatever you wish, just don't expect me to trust any of your made-up assertions.

 

[2aguy]

A good look at the numbers...

2. The substantial rise in death and assailant rates that began about 1960 for the 15-29 age group; and
3. The higher cohort rates for homicide during 1960-72 at ages 35 years and over than at ages 25-34, the age group for which the usual peak homicide rate occurs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1435670/pdf/pubhealthrep00160-0005.pdf

I don't see the connection between the homicide data and your assertion that British criminals only intend to wound?

You have to read the news stories about the shootings in Britain.......they show the victims are generally shot in the lower body, not the chest or head.

 

[2aguy]

The data you gave included no support for your assertions that Dems caused the problem and concealed carry solved it. You can believe whatever you wish, just don't expect me to trust any of your made-up assertions.

Didn't say concealed carry solved it by itself.......locking up violent criminals was the biggest factor. When a criminal is in jail or prison, they aren't out shooting people.

 

[luiza]

And, of course, the gun crime rate and violent crime rates are going up in Britain....just because British criminals who are naturally British were less violent in the past means nothing to the new immigrants who now control the drug trade in Britain....

You are absolutely right.
All those uncouth Americans and other unsophisticated riff raff coming here are upsetting our exemplary performance .