How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Boss]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

 

[emilynghiem]

My parents believe something must have made us and we get along just fine. But they agree all religions are made up.

My mom says "we say we believe which means we don't know". Well I don't believe. So what? Still a good person in fact better

1. but you are SURE there is no God behind all these made up religions trying to define what God really is.
Your mom is able to be honest and say we don't know.
Are you as honest in saying you don't know either?

2. science and math are "made up terms" but we can still use them to measure
and work out problems where they come in handy. we know there are limits
and there are some things not yet proven or defined consistently using these.

Why not use religions the same way -- to communicate with people who respond that way.

You mentioned animals. Don't the bluejays call out to each other in one language
and the whales communicate in other tones?

Don't people do similar, and go door to door calling out as Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses
trying to find the people who respond to that particular language and join their group?

As we speak, aren't there whole groups of people organizing by party beliefs,
or online organizing as Atheists (even some forming their own congregations and having services!).

Why isn't this seen as a social tool to organize the masses by tribe (similar to organizing
the several states that are sovereign under one national govt). Why isn't this seen as having good purpose?

 

[emilynghiem]

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

But no one is positing anything, I am asking how you explain the overwhelming amounts of phenomena which can't be physically explained? So far, the only explanation I am getting from the non-spiritual, is simply blanket dismissal. I think this points to a mental disorder of someone in denial.

I am not a religious person. I am not here to defend Christianity. I am not here to lobby for my God over your God. I'm not interested in promoting my religious views over yours. I'm not here to condemn you and tell you that you're going to hell. If that's your perception of what this thread is about, you are delusional.

So can we stop with the persistent bashing of theocracy for a moment and get back to the OP topic? Or does every single thing in your entire pathetic existence revolve around being an anti-Christian Storm Trooper Zombie? Are you beyond rational conversation?

Like you've decided there must be supernatural I've decided they don't exist. None of those things you listed are real. So far that's my belief but I remain open to new information.

All the evidence suggests all that's in your heads.

No anger or animosity from me. And I hope you don't believe I'll be punished for my skepticism? If you do that's more of an indication to me you're just superstitious and cherry picking what you want to believe from the big 3

If you can explain how schizophrenic patients with demons taking over their minds wills and personalities
were cured by using deliverance and healing prayer,
and just call that SCIENCE and NATURAL process, that's fine.

The process STILL WORKS if you call it natural science or you call it supernatural / spiritual.

But I think it is strangely biased to have to ASSUME these processes aren't real
in order to avoid having to explain them using science.

Even if it is just "delusions" going on in patients' heads
how do you explain away why the other medications or treatments
didn't get rid of the demon symptoms/delusions,
but the spiritual healing did?

Wouldn't natural scientific curiosity compel you to investigate
and find out what makes that process work?

(or is your agenda only to reject religion, so there is no interest
in investigating anything that might prove both religion and science to be compatible.
why is this being avoided except for fear of religion being proven by science?)

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

But you do try to explain them with must be god.

But you seem like a nice enough person. I like and love lots of people who believe in god. I think they are wrong and the idea is bad for them but I certainty don't rant this stuff to them. I know most people believe this foolish notion and will die believing it. But if most theists were like you that doesn't really bother me. And the more time goes on the more liberal god gets. Less fire and brimstone christians today than 55 years ago for example. Or those god hate fags people or Isis and mormons. You must hate all the other theists who misrepresents god.

You don't have to believe because if there is a creator he didn't build a heaven for you and odds are this is it. Knowing that you'll appreciate each day more and won't wait for the afterlife. If its there fine. You seem good enough to get in.

God told me. But he said my karma belief is bs

 

[RandomVariable]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

Boss, did you state God talks to you. sealybobo, do you have a post number to back up your statement that he did?

 

[sealybobo]

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

But no one is positing anything, I am asking how you explain the overwhelming amounts of phenomena which can't be physically explained? So far, the only explanation I am getting from the non-spiritual, is simply blanket dismissal. I think this points to a mental disorder of someone in denial.

I am not a religious person. I am not here to defend Christianity. I am not here to lobby for my God over your God. I'm not interested in promoting my religious views over yours. I'm not here to condemn you and tell you that you're going to hell. If that's your perception of what this thread is about, you are delusional.

So can we stop with the persistent bashing of theocracy for a moment and get back to the OP topic? Or does every single thing in your entire pathetic existence revolve around being an anti-Christian Storm Trooper Zombie? Are you beyond rational conversation?

Like you've decided there must be supernatural I've decided they don't exist. None of those things you listed are real. So far that's my belief but I remain open to new information.

All the evidence suggests all that's in your heads.

No anger or animosity from me. And I hope you don't believe I'll be punished for my skepticism? If you do that's more of an indication to me you're just superstitious and cherry picking what you want to believe from the big 3

If you can explain how schizophrenic patients with demons taking over their minds wills and personalities
were cured by using deliverance and healing prayer,
and just call that SCIENCE and NATURAL process, that's fine.

The process STILL WORKS if you call it natural science or you call it supernatural / spiritual.

But I think it is strangely biased to have to ASSUME these processes aren't real
in order to avoid having to explain them using science.

Even if it is just "delusions" going on in patients' heads
how do you explain away why the other medications or treatments
didn't get rid of the demon symptoms/delusions,
but the spiritual healing did?

Wouldn't natural scientific curiosity compel you to investigate
and find out what makes that process work?

(or is your agenda only to reject religion, so there is no interest
in investigating anything that might prove both religion and science to be compatible.
why is this being avoided except for fear of religion being proven by science?)

Pray and cure my nephews autism see what happens. Ask god to do it.

In the meantime scientists say acid might cure it. If we could just get the christian congress to allow it. Same way Gordy howe had to fly to california to get a stemcell procedure illegal in michigan. Nice he can afford to do that but many can't. Religions don't care.

Same way religion all over america lowered the number of abortion clinics. That's OK for a girl with a car and money but not a poor girl who needs access to a local clinic. So in every way I see organized religions are all wrong even if their intensions are pure.

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

Boss, did you state God talks to you. sealybobo, do you have a post number to back up your statement that he did?

If I'm not mistaken. Boss?

 

[RandomVariable]

RE: ghosts
I met someone at a Buddhist retreat who said that all her family witnessed the ghost of their father walk into the room after they were gathered for his funeral services.
The Buddhists teach that the soul is still on this plane after death but is outside the body.

You can question that until it is proven,
but "attacking" someone in a non-neutral fashion
biased AGAINST stories of ghosts being true, instead of open either way,
shows an emotional bias caused by not forgiving people in the past
and projecting this onto other people. How is that different from a religious bias
that judges and rejects people for having different beliefs?

If you reject people in a biased fashion against them, instead of being neutral,
they tend to respond to you in the same biased rejecting way. that is a natural
law. So if you don't like when religious people do this, why would you behave the same way?

Nonsense. But buddhists don't claim god told them this. They just believe it. Of course they do. If you just died and you believe the soul continues then of course they believe the spirit is present. Just wild speculation. Could it be true? Sure. As long as people

sealybobo

If you are teaching there is more than one god that's you doing that here.

I am saying there is only one God or source of universal truths,
and all religions/laws are attempting to represent this in limited language.

Of course there are going to be flaws, biases and conflicts
because people aren't perfect.

As I pointed out before,
if there is any denial or bias going on, which you "unneutrally" call LYING,
it is because of fear and unforgiveness that skews people's judgments
including yours.

You do not mean to project out of denial, but you do.
If you are not intentionally lying, then neither are they.
If you call them "liars" that's why believers say you are "lying."

The reason I don't see this as intentional
is that I can forgive these biases and conflicts
so I can see they are not intentional.

Sorry that you do not forgive these so you see it as deliberately lying.

Why are you so sure there is only one god? You seem to me like the kind of person who would have really believed in the deep thought that came up with the Greek gods. One for every occasion. Why are you so sure there is only one god? It takes 2 to make a baby, right?

I don't think theists are lying. I believe they have been lied to by society that doesn't realize it's been lied to and forced to believe for so long they now believe the lie.

Why can't you realize that I'm truly trying to help people? Your trying to say, "forgive and forget that they are wrong, just focus on the good that can come of it and go along". Try to get them to focus on the good and not the fire and brimstone shit. And meanwhile we watch ISIS chop heads off for their god. Stop going along Emily for they know not what they are saying. Neither do you.

Facts are our country has the luxury of being the world super power and we were smart enough to make ourselves a secular nation. So we can handle radical theists and we don't have to worry about becoming a theist nation.

So stop being a completely bullshit artist. I know your intentions are good but you are just way off base. I know you know your truth is the best truth going on USMB but it is not. You're just another person who's still in the stone ages when our ancestors were superstitious wants to believe in god so bad no amount of information is going to get you to see your god is imaginary. And it is no good for you. And it is no good for me living in a society full of dopes either. Pretend you are living in 1940 Catholic Nazi Germany or Italy and those god fearing people are about to do the unthinkable. How did they justify this with their god? I don't know but they did. God is doing a horrible job running the show. Let us atheists take over.

Hi sealybobo
1. if "you atheists" were truly all inclusive by accepting ALL explanations as right for that person,
you might be objective and universal enough to cover ALL and protect equal "religious freedom for all"

But since you have shown contempt and bias AGAINST certain views
then you are not objective and all inclusive either. that's why you are not the default.

I would say the Buddhists are probably the closest to being neutral
and letting all people follow their own paths.

2. as for "one God"
it depends how you define this

a. if you mean the way Christians teach God is the only way to teach God
and you try to impose that on everyone else including nontheists, no, that
is not the best way. That still doesn't negate the concept of one God,
it just shows that teaching just one way is not enough to include everyone

b. if you teach that the one God can be EXPRESSED and experienced
in different ways, that MIGHT be closer to universal and including all ways:
God as Life or Source of Life
God as Nature or Creation or Universe
God as Truth or Wisdom, Universal Laws, Justice
God as love, divine forgiveness, spiritual peace

so if you teach that there is one God that all the different ways
describe or point to,
then you can include BOTH
the beliefs in "one God as absolute"
as well as the "relative expressions" of this one God or Source of all truth in life.

Since B. is closer to all inclusive
that is the way I recommend.
I believe in accommodating everyone's free exercise of religion
or their beliefs equally, including secular or political beliefs,
so I try to take the more inclusive approach
and then resolve any conflics from there.

I have never seen any form of conflict resolution
work by EXCLUDING one or both parties in the conflicts.

The first step in mediation is to set up a neutral ground that includes
the parties' views equally, and then letting them work it out between them.

So sealybobo if you want atheists or nontheists to be the
neutral starting ground, then you would have to ALLOW for
the beliefs of theists within that set and not verbally or
emotionally threaten such people to make them feel excluded
or discriminated against. When people are put on the defensive
it blocks the communication process to be skewed and not equally open and free.

If you cannot forgive theists or religionists for their beliefs,
that introduces a bias that makes your starting point NOT neutral and NOT objective.
So you will have difficulty proving anything from a biased starting point
that is already on the side of rejection.

What theist would step foot in a courtroom knowing the judge is already
biased against them? Mediation fails when the process is skewed against one side.

“There are those whose views about religion are not very different from my own, but who nevertheless feel that we should try to damp down the conflict, that we should compromise it. … I respect their views and I understand their motives, and I don't condemn them, but I'm not having it. To me, the conflict between science and religion is more important than these issues of science education or even environmentalism. I think the world needs to wake up from its long nightmare of religious belief; and anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in fact be our greatest contribution to civilization.”
― Steven Weinberg

Re: False division between science and religion
Dear sealybobo
doesn't it make sense that whatever is true about human nature
would have to be consistent with science if it is true
and also consistent with what religions teach in order for them to be true.

Well, studies on spiritual healing can bridge this gap in understanding
between science and religion. The doctors who have studied it all recognized this
and support medical studies to establish this more publicly.

Curiously enough, both Dr. Peck and Dr. MacNutt BLAME the false
division between science and religion as obstructing this research.

Makes sense that if these two groups are segregated and enforced in society
as incompatible, there won't be motivation or collaboration to do scientific studies on spiritual healing.
If people like you are too busy preaching against any such proof instead of pursuing it.

As more people realize this will solve multiple problems,
then it will finally get support it needs for formal research to go public with it.

Morality is a cultural concept with a basis in evolutionary psychology and game theory. Species whose members were predisposed to cooperate were more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Reciprocacy, altruism and other so-called ‘moral’ characteristics are evident in many species. The neurochemical thought to regulate morality and empathy is oxytocin.

Religious texts are simply part of many early attempts to codify moral precepts. Secular law, flexible with the shifting moral zeitgeist, has long since superseded religion as a source of moral directives for the majority of developed societies. Secular ethics offers a number of competing moral frameworks which do not derive from a purported supernatural source.

The god character of the Bible is a misogynistictyrant that condones and even orders the practice of slavery, rape of women and murder of children. The moment you disagree with a single instruction of the Bible, such as the command to kill any bride who is not a virgin or any child who disrespects their parents, then you acknowledge that there exists a superior standard by which to judge moral action and thus no need to rely on an ancient, primitive and barbaric fantasy.

Don't forget the link:
Creationism and the Origin of Life s... - Religious Apologies Debunked Facebook

 

[emilynghiem]

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

But no one is positing anything, I am asking how you explain the overwhelming amounts of phenomena which can't be physically explained? So far, the only explanation I am getting from the non-spiritual, is simply blanket dismissal. I think this points to a mental disorder of someone in denial.

I am not a religious person. I am not here to defend Christianity. I am not here to lobby for my God over your God. I'm not interested in promoting my religious views over yours. I'm not here to condemn you and tell you that you're going to hell. If that's your perception of what this thread is about, you are delusional.

So can we stop with the persistent bashing of theocracy for a moment and get back to the OP topic? Or does every single thing in your entire pathetic existence revolve around being an anti-Christian Storm Trooper Zombie? Are you beyond rational conversation?

Like you've decided there must be supernatural I've decided they don't exist. None of those things you listed are real. So far that's my belief but I remain open to new information.

All the evidence suggests all that's in your heads.

No anger or animosity from me. And I hope you don't believe I'll be punished for my skepticism? If you do that's more of an indication to me you're just superstitious and cherry picking what you want to believe from the big 3

If you can explain how schizophrenic patients with demons taking over their minds wills and personalities
were cured by using deliverance and healing prayer,
and just call that SCIENCE and NATURAL process, that's fine.

The process STILL WORKS if you call it natural science or you call it supernatural / spiritual.

But I think it is strangely biased to have to ASSUME these processes aren't real
in order to avoid having to explain them using science.

Even if it is just "delusions" going on in patients' heads
how do you explain away why the other medications or treatments
didn't get rid of the demon symptoms/delusions,
but the spiritual healing did?

Wouldn't natural scientific curiosity compel you to investigate
and find out what makes that process work?

(or is your agenda only to reject religion, so there is no interest
in investigating anything that might prove both religion and science to be compatible.
why is this being avoided except for fear of religion being proven by science?)

Pray and cure my nephews autism see what happens. Ask god to do it.

In the meantime scientists say acid might cure it. If we could just get the christian congress to allow it. Same way Gordy howe had to fly to california to get a stemcell procedure illegal in michigan. Nice he can afford to do that but many can't. Religions don't care.

Same way religion all over america lowered the number of abortion clinics. That's OK for a girl with a car and money but not a poor girl who needs access to a local clinic. So in every way I see organized religions are all wrong even if their intensions are pure.

1. With autism the successful cases I have seen of therapy involved constant interaction from early on.
One boy I saw on TV, who had his mother work with him daily, fully recovered to normal.

2. to get rid of unwanted pregnancy and abortion, stop the abuse of sex and abuse of relationships
when people AREN'T ready or willing to have children.

This is done by healing relationships where people don't abuse each other and don't abuse sex.

You treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Well treat all sex as if they are going to cause a pregnancy.
And only have sex if all the people this is going to affect AGREE to the partnership and the pregnancy and child.

sealybobo you again keep defining God as something unnatural? why?
Why isn't it good enough to respect the natural laws of life and recognize this is the same as what other people
teach using religion.

Is that just too harmonious for you that you have to fight it
and make it an argument so something has to be wrong?
what is wrong with focusing on what we AGREE are natural laws and solve problems?

what is wrong with praying for solutions
and they turn out to be natural common sense!

 

[sealybobo]

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

But no one is positing anything, I am asking how you explain the overwhelming amounts of phenomena which can't be physically explained? So far, the only explanation I am getting from the non-spiritual, is simply blanket dismissal. I think this points to a mental disorder of someone in denial.

I am not a religious person. I am not here to defend Christianity. I am not here to lobby for my God over your God. I'm not interested in promoting my religious views over yours. I'm not here to condemn you and tell you that you're going to hell. If that's your perception of what this thread is about, you are delusional.

So can we stop with the persistent bashing of theocracy for a moment and get back to the OP topic? Or does every single thing in your entire pathetic existence revolve around being an anti-Christian Storm Trooper Zombie? Are you beyond rational conversation?

Like you've decided there must be supernatural I've decided they don't exist. None of those things you listed are real. So far that's my belief but I remain open to new information.

All the evidence suggests all that's in your heads.

No anger or animosity from me. And I hope you don't believe I'll be punished for my skepticism? If you do that's more of an indication to me you're just superstitious and cherry picking what you want to believe from the big 3

If you can explain how schizophrenic patients with demons taking over their minds wills and personalities
were cured by using deliverance and healing prayer,
and just call that SCIENCE and NATURAL process, that's fine.

The process STILL WORKS if you call it natural science or you call it supernatural / spiritual.

But I think it is strangely biased to have to ASSUME these processes aren't real
in order to avoid having to explain them using science.

Even if it is just "delusions" going on in patients' heads
how do you explain away why the other medications or treatments
didn't get rid of the demon symptoms/delusions,
but the spiritual healing did?

Wouldn't natural scientific curiosity compel you to investigate
and find out what makes that process work?

(or is your agenda only to reject religion, so there is no interest
in investigating anything that might prove both religion and science to be compatible.
why is this being avoided except for fear of religion being proven by science?)

Pray and cure my nephews autism see what happens. Ask god to do it.

In the meantime scientists say acid might cure it. If we could just get the christian congress to allow it. Same way Gordy howe had to fly to california to get a stemcell procedure illegal in michigan. Nice he can afford to do that but many can't. Religions don't care.

Same way religion all over america lowered the number of abortion clinics. That's OK for a girl with a car and money but not a poor girl who needs access to a local clinic. So in every way I see organized religions are all wrong even if their intensions are pure.

1. With autism the successful cases I have seen of therapy involved constant interaction from early on.
One boy I saw on TV, who had his mother work with him daily, fully recovered to normal.

2. to get rid of unwanted pregnancy and abortion, stop the abuse of sex and abuse of relationships
when people AREN'T ready or willing to have children.

This is done by healing relationships where people don't abuse each other and don't abuse sex.

You treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Well treat all sex as if they are going to cause a pregnancy.
And only have sex if all the people this is going to affect AGREE to the partnership and the pregnancy and child.

sealybobo you again keep defining God as something unnatural? why?
Why isn't it good enough to respect the natural laws of life and recognize this is the same as what other people
teach using religion.

Is that just too harmonious for you that you have to fight it
and make it an argument so something has to be wrong?
what is wrong with focusing on what we AGREE are natural laws and solve problems?

what is wrong with praying for solutions
and they turn out to be natural common sense!

Make adult embreo stem cell research legal and make abortion safe and legal for all women, not just for the daughters of the rich religious hypocrites who will make the drive and pay the $500 to get er done.

 

[OZman]

Resuscitation Experts on Near Death Experiences:

 

[emilynghiem]

But no one is positing anything, I am asking how you explain the overwhelming amounts of phenomena which can't be physically explained? So far, the only explanation I am getting from the non-spiritual, is simply blanket dismissal. I think this points to a mental disorder of someone in denial.

I am not a religious person. I am not here to defend Christianity. I am not here to lobby for my God over your God. I'm not interested in promoting my religious views over yours. I'm not here to condemn you and tell you that you're going to hell. If that's your perception of what this thread is about, you are delusional.

So can we stop with the persistent bashing of theocracy for a moment and get back to the OP topic? Or does every single thing in your entire pathetic existence revolve around being an anti-Christian Storm Trooper Zombie? Are you beyond rational conversation?

Like you've decided there must be supernatural I've decided they don't exist. None of those things you listed are real. So far that's my belief but I remain open to new information.

All the evidence suggests all that's in your heads.

No anger or animosity from me. And I hope you don't believe I'll be punished for my skepticism? If you do that's more of an indication to me you're just superstitious and cherry picking what you want to believe from the big 3

If you can explain how schizophrenic patients with demons taking over their minds wills and personalities
were cured by using deliverance and healing prayer,
and just call that SCIENCE and NATURAL process, that's fine.

The process STILL WORKS if you call it natural science or you call it supernatural / spiritual.

But I think it is strangely biased to have to ASSUME these processes aren't real
in order to avoid having to explain them using science.

Even if it is just "delusions" going on in patients' heads
how do you explain away why the other medications or treatments
didn't get rid of the demon symptoms/delusions,
but the spiritual healing did?

Wouldn't natural scientific curiosity compel you to investigate
and find out what makes that process work?

(or is your agenda only to reject religion, so there is no interest
in investigating anything that might prove both religion and science to be compatible.
why is this being avoided except for fear of religion being proven by science?)

Pray and cure my nephews autism see what happens. Ask god to do it.

In the meantime scientists say acid might cure it. If we could just get the christian congress to allow it. Same way Gordy howe had to fly to california to get a stemcell procedure illegal in michigan. Nice he can afford to do that but many can't. Religions don't care.

Same way religion all over america lowered the number of abortion clinics. That's OK for a girl with a car and money but not a poor girl who needs access to a local clinic. So in every way I see organized religions are all wrong even if their intensions are pure.

1. With autism the successful cases I have seen of therapy involved constant interaction from early on.
One boy I saw on TV, who had his mother work with him daily, fully recovered to normal.

2. to get rid of unwanted pregnancy and abortion, stop the abuse of sex and abuse of relationships
when people AREN'T ready or willing to have children.

This is done by healing relationships where people don't abuse each other and don't abuse sex.

You treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Well treat all sex as if they are going to cause a pregnancy.
And only have sex if all the people this is going to affect AGREE to the partnership and the pregnancy and child.

sealybobo you again keep defining God as something unnatural? why?
Why isn't it good enough to respect the natural laws of life and recognize this is the same as what other people
teach using religion.

Is that just too harmonious for you that you have to fight it
and make it an argument so something has to be wrong?
what is wrong with focusing on what we AGREE are natural laws and solve problems?

what is wrong with praying for solutions
and they turn out to be natural common sense!

Make adult embreo stem cell research legal and make abortion safe and legal for all women, not just for the daughters of the rich religious hypocrites who will make the drive and pay the $500 to get er done.

Sure sealybobo you can do this and add to the solutions you see fit.
if you are serious, you invest your own money and efforts into this,
and don't just expect to legislate and make "other people follow your beliefs like a religion"

if you don't like other people telling you what to believe and how to do what, then why do this to others if you hate it too.

Note: But none of this stops rape, incest, abuse, coercing women to have sex have babies have abortions.

More is needed than just focusing on what to do "after the fact"

Your solutions are not "the only ones" just like one person's religious view of God is not "the only one"
Practice what you preach and you won't be so frustrated.

 

[emilynghiem]

Resuscitation Experts on Near Death Experiences:

Dear OZman if you read the statements by Don Piper
he was crushed lifeless by an 18 wheeler and had to have his arms/legs reconstructed.

Had his heart been beating, he would have bled out in the 90 minutes he had no pulse
and was declared dead. With no blood going to his brain he should have been impaired.

He recovered and the doctors cannot explain the complete LACK of brain injuries
and no affect at all to his mental and neurological functions. He is completely normal which is rare.

Only the physical damage to his bones and recovery from his reconstruction cause him pain from that,
which is normal.

 

[Hollie]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

Actually, what you provided was a rote list of claims that resolve to nothing more than people's "feelings". All of the "experiences beyond the physical" you describe "can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever."

How is it that "something beyond the physical" is always "something beyond the demonstrable and supportable"?

Despite your desperate need to believe in gawds and supernatural spirit realms, don't confuse your alleged "rational mind" with the ability of snake oil salesmen and charlatans to prey upon such fears and superstitions.

Ask your gawds to magically regrow someone's severed limb or magically part a sea, for real this time. Until then, la cosa nostra, capice?

 

[Moonglow]

Of course that's my problem with believing in god(s). I don't think we will ever solve the argument "does god exist". In fact I'm sure we won't. And when muslims and christians continue killing in the name of ____ and you ask if that's my problem? Of course it is.

Human behavior is also why I firmly believe that we made god up. And unless you believe in one of the nutty religions I guess it doesn't matter if I believe because god never came here and told anyone that believing he visited is the main requirement to get into heaven. That is clearly man made bullshit. Could I be wrong? I'll take my chances based on the evidence I feel pretty safe.

From the looks of it when you learn psychology, cosmology, quantum physics, human history, geology and the history of religion that god is nothing but a fairy tale we came up with.

I don't sit around worrying about what's going to happen to me when I die. Seems pointless or wishful thinking to believe you are going to live forever after you die. I spend more time wondering how we can get the human race to live forever. This planet is doomed. We need to build spaceships so that the human race's existence doesn't die when our sun expires. I know I'll be long dead by then but I care. It would be a shame to have come all this way for nothing like the dinosaurs & trilobites who once ruled this planet.

In fact when I look at Republicans who claim to be very religious and then I see how they don't want to educate or feed the poor or heal the sick, I realize they believe in 2 gods. Their main god is the god of capitalism. Second is Jesus.

Hi sealybobo
Did human beings create our own nature?
And why our psychology is affected adversely by unforgiveness and fear-related oppression,
vs. positive effects of forgiveness on healing, and positive responses to love and inclusion?

Did we make up these rules or did they come with our human nature?

Wolves are mean animals. They'll kill you just for being in their territory. If you ate one you would see that they taste like shit. I bet humans taste like shit too. LOL.

But it is amazing that our mental state can and does affect our physical well being.

OK and how would you describe the difference
between the nature of the wolves and animals
and what makes human nature a different "beast".

Other animals have compassion and love. Even wolves do. They care about the pack but sometimes the Alpha has to kick the Omegas ass maybe even kill him. Very similar to humans. Just look at ISIS. The devil didn't make the wolf or ISIS do what they do.

Ok let's talk about the difference in what makes animals do what they do and what makes humans do what they do.

for example, why do people use contraception but animals don't.
What is the difference in thought process there?

I have a hard time understanding how a head can hold so many memories. I've watched entire tv shows with the tv off by mind power alone.

There are a lot of things I can't explain, like microwave ovens, that doesn't make them magic.

I can explain how microwaves work...

 

[sealybobo]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

Actually, what you provided was a rote list of claims that resolve to nothing more than people's "feelings". All of the "experiences beyond the physical" you describe "can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever."

How is it that "something beyond the physical" is always "something beyond the demonstrable and supportable"?

Despite your desperate need to believe in gawds and supernatural spirit realms, don't confuse your alleged "rational mind" with the ability of snake oil salesmen and charlatans to prey upon such fears and superstitions.

Ask your gawds to magically regrow someone's severed limb or magically part a sea, for real this time. Until then, la cosa nostra, capice?

Yes I want to see a documentary where 6 scientists are all invited to watch an exorcism and show me those scientists reactions and their opinions afterward. I would guess they'd all agree the girl was mentally sick and probably read about exorcists and talking in tongues.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi sealybobo
Did human beings create our own nature?
And why our psychology is affected adversely by unforgiveness and fear-related oppression,
vs. positive effects of forgiveness on healing, and positive responses to love and inclusion?

Did we make up these rules or did they come with our human nature?

Wolves are mean animals. They'll kill you just for being in their territory. If you ate one you would see that they taste like shit. I bet humans taste like shit too. LOL.

But it is amazing that our mental state can and does affect our physical well being.

OK and how would you describe the difference
between the nature of the wolves and animals
and what makes human nature a different "beast".

Other animals have compassion and love. Even wolves do. They care about the pack but sometimes the Alpha has to kick the Omegas ass maybe even kill him. Very similar to humans. Just look at ISIS. The devil didn't make the wolf or ISIS do what they do.

Ok let's talk about the difference in what makes animals do what they do and what makes humans do what they do.

for example, why do people use contraception but animals don't.
What is the difference in thought process there?

I have a hard time understanding how a head can hold so many memories. I've watched entire tv shows with the tv off by mind power alone.

There are a lot of things I can't explain, like microwave ovens, that doesn't make them magic.

I can explain how microwaves work...

Yes, and the same way microwaves come with a warning
and people are taught not to expose themselves to radiation that is dangerous,
similar needs to be taught with occult energy and dark magic that interferes with natural lifegiving energy
vs. the natural healing energy that is lifegiving and promotes good health

 

[emilynghiem]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

How do you explain all these things?

I can't explain them and that's my point. I listed about a dozen different areas, each of which contain volumes of testaments from people who apparently experienced something beyond the physical. Now most certainly, some of these instances can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever. But my rational mind tells me that cannot be the case 100% of the time, across all these fields for all these years and all the stories.

So my conclusion is, at least some of these cases are credible and there is something going on beyond our physical ability to detect. Quantum physics supports the notion there are dimensions we cannot observe.

Actually, what you provided was a rote list of claims that resolve to nothing more than people's "feelings". All of the "experiences beyond the physical" you describe "can be chalked up as hoaxes, imagination, mental disorders, hallucinations, whatever."

How is it that "something beyond the physical" is always "something beyond the demonstrable and supportable"?

Despite your desperate need to believe in gawds and supernatural spirit realms, don't confuse your alleged "rational mind" with the ability of snake oil salesmen and charlatans to prey upon such fears and superstitions.

Ask your gawds to magically regrow someone's severed limb or magically part a sea, for real this time. Until then, la cosa nostra, capice?

Yes I want to see a documentary where 6 scientists are all invited to watch an exorcism and show me those scientists reactions and their opinions afterward. I would guess they'd all agree the girl was mentally sick and probably read about exorcists and talking in tongues.

YES, I think science and religion are coming to that point.

the point is if the therapy CURES the patient,
then why not apply and access this therapy if it is shown to WORK

 

[Hollie]

Resuscitation Experts on Near Death Experiences:

Dear OZman if you read the statements by Don Piper
he was crushed lifeless by an 18 wheeler and had to have his arms/legs reconstructed.

Had his heart been beating, he would have bled out in the 90 minutes he had no pulse
and was declared dead. With no blood going to his brain he should have been impaired.

He recovered and the doctors cannot explain the complete LACK of brain injuries
and no affect at all to his mental and neurological functions. He is completely normal which is rare.

Only the physical damage to his bones and recovery from his reconstruction cause him pain from that,
which is normal.

I see no miracles in the Don Piper tale. Have you considered that the similarities of descriptions of NDE's share common attributes because of human physiology?

I suppose the real miracle is that Don Piper survived a devastating accident. Good for him, screw all those other losers who died.

 

[sealybobo]

And I bet she doesn't climb up to the ceiling or levitate or no doors will slam shut

Wolves are mean animals. They'll kill you just for being in their territory. If you ate one you would see that they taste like shit. I bet humans taste like shit too. LOL.

But it is amazing that our mental state can and does affect our physical well being.

OK and how would you describe the difference
between the nature of the wolves and animals
and what makes human nature a different "beast".

Other animals have compassion and love. Even wolves do. They care about the pack but sometimes the Alpha has to kick the Omegas ass maybe even kill him. Very similar to humans. Just look at ISIS. The devil didn't make the wolf or ISIS do what they do.

Ok let's talk about the difference in what makes animals do what they do and what makes humans do what they do.

for example, why do people use contraception but animals don't.
What is the difference in thought process there?

I have a hard time understanding how a head can hold so many memories. I've watched entire tv shows with the tv off by mind power alone.

There are a lot of things I can't explain, like microwave ovens, that doesn't make them magic.

I can explain how microwaves work...

Yes, and the same way microwaves come with a warning
and people are taught not to expose themselves to radiation that is dangerous,
similar needs to be taught with occult energy and dark magic that interferes with natural lifegiving energy
vs. the natural healing energy that is lifegiving and promotes good health

Youre nutz