CDZ How did we get to this point?

[Trotsky's Spectre]

That’s not a point of view that can be supported with honest intent.

So to agree with the original poster over and against the above proposition constitutes us as inherently dishonest? That is a proposition I would not care to have to defend.

 

[Trotsky's Spectre]

It could definitely just be me

In 2016, 46% of those eligible elected not to vote. I seriously doubt that it is 'just you.'

 

[petro]

Their motivations are donations and re-election, and that's what animates their behaviors.

Until those two motivations are eliminated, that status quo will continue. There is no reason for any Congress critter to hold office for decades. No reason it should cost hundreds of millions to run for POTUS. The system has been bought off and many Americans of both parties feel helpless to change it and simply have checked out. When office holders can simply vote themselves benefits and pay raises as many are struggling it only shows the Republic was lost to monetary interests long ago.

I think we'd see better candidates and profoundly different behaviors if we had term limits and publicly-funded elections.

If we take care of one....campaign finance reform....then the other...term limits....will occur naturally.

Agree, but how to force an issue such as that through a political body that resists any effort to control their hold on power.
Both parties have a vested interest in protecting the status quo and thrive when Americans are deeply divided amongst themselves. Seems they are winning while the rest of us are screwed and not really represented.
I will be honest even knowing neither of you care for Trump. He is for many including myself, a huge middle finger to the current system as both parties hate him. I would have went third party if Bush would have been the chosen candidate in 2016. My disappointment is he didn't continue hammering the need for term limits as he did when running.
Regardless, "career politician" should not be an accepted term of our vocabulary.

Trump is not a middle finger to the system. That’s a ruse that you fell for. He’s a grifter. The nation’s leading grifter. And he’d try to get a third term without hesitation if he were to win a second.

The Dems at least have campaign finance reform in their platform. They see that it is needed.

Yet they chose a lifetime career hack linked to the Clinton dynasty. And you accuse me of "falling for it?
The third term narrative fear, which would require an amendment from a body hostile to Trump, shows you fell for it.
Frankly, we have two turds running again, I just happen to think Trump isn't as ripe as Biden in the stink of the cesspool we call DC.

That is a type of insanity. Can’t help you.

Didn't ask for your help. Just offered an explanation that you can't accept.
Insanity is pure hatred of a single individual.
Insanity is continuing the status quo only because of that hatred.
If Biden wins, I will accept the outcome while displeased about it, but won't hate the man for it.
Can you do the same if Trump wins?
I highly doubt it.

Not this time. No. Fuck him.

Not this time?

You never did. Which helps explain why we are at this point.

Would you like to bet on that?

Is the “reaction” a yes? How much?

Are we children now?
How about making an actual point?

 

[LoneLaugher]

That’s not a point of view that can be supported with honest intent.

So to agree with the original poster over and against the above proposition constitutes us as inherently dishonest? That is a proposition I would not care to have to defend.

Anyone who considers Trump and Biden to be equally unfit is being dishonest. Anyone.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Their motivations are donations and re-election, and that's what animates their behaviors.

Until those two motivations are eliminated, that status quo will continue. There is no reason for any Congress critter to hold office for decades. No reason it should cost hundreds of millions to run for POTUS. The system has been bought off and many Americans of both parties feel helpless to change it and simply have checked out. When office holders can simply vote themselves benefits and pay raises as many are struggling it only shows the Republic was lost to monetary interests long ago.

I think we'd see better candidates and profoundly different behaviors if we had term limits and publicly-funded elections.

If we take care of one....campaign finance reform....then the other...term limits....will occur naturally.

Agree, but how to force an issue such as that through a political body that resists any effort to control their hold on power.
Both parties have a vested interest in protecting the status quo and thrive when Americans are deeply divided amongst themselves. Seems they are winning while the rest of us are screwed and not really represented.
I will be honest even knowing neither of you care for Trump. He is for many including myself, a huge middle finger to the current system as both parties hate him. I would have went third party if Bush would have been the chosen candidate in 2016. My disappointment is he didn't continue hammering the need for term limits as he did when running.
Regardless, "career politician" should not be an accepted term of our vocabulary.

Trump is not a middle finger to the system. That’s a ruse that you fell for. He’s a grifter. The nation’s leading grifter. And he’d try to get a third term without hesitation if he were to win a second.

The Dems at least have campaign finance reform in their platform. They see that it is needed.

Yet they chose a lifetime career hack linked to the Clinton dynasty. And you accuse me of "falling for it?
The third term narrative fear, which would require an amendment from a body hostile to Trump, shows you fell for it.
Frankly, we have two turds running again, I just happen to think Trump isn't as ripe as Biden in the stink of the cesspool we call DC.

That is a type of insanity. Can’t help you.

Didn't ask for your help. Just offered an explanation that you can't accept.
Insanity is pure hatred of a single individual.
Insanity is continuing the status quo only because of that hatred.
If Biden wins, I will accept the outcome while displeased about it, but won't hate the man for it.
Can you do the same if Trump wins?
I highly doubt it.

Not this time. No. Fuck him.

Not this time?

You never did. Which helps explain why we are at this point.

Would you like to bet on that?

Is the “reaction” a yes? How much?

Are we children now?
How about making an actual point?

My point, bitch, is that I fully and publicly accepted the result of the 2016 election and gave the moron ample opportunity to prove himself worthy of the gig.

But now that I’ve witnessed his absolute inability to rise to the position, he will not get support from me if he finds another miracle and gets a second term.

That ship sailed. Fuck him. And fuck you if you vote for him.

 

[Mac1958]

It could definitely just be me

In 2016, 46% of those eligible elected not to vote. I seriously doubt that it is 'just you.'

Yeah. Many don't see the point. Understandable.

 

[petro]

Their motivations are donations and re-election, and that's what animates their behaviors.

Until those two motivations are eliminated, that status quo will continue. There is no reason for any Congress critter to hold office for decades. No reason it should cost hundreds of millions to run for POTUS. The system has been bought off and many Americans of both parties feel helpless to change it and simply have checked out. When office holders can simply vote themselves benefits and pay raises as many are struggling it only shows the Republic was lost to monetary interests long ago.

I think we'd see better candidates and profoundly different behaviors if we had term limits and publicly-funded elections.

If we take care of one....campaign finance reform....then the other...term limits....will occur naturally.

Agree, but how to force an issue such as that through a political body that resists any effort to control their hold on power.
Both parties have a vested interest in protecting the status quo and thrive when Americans are deeply divided amongst themselves. Seems they are winning while the rest of us are screwed and not really represented.
I will be honest even knowing neither of you care for Trump. He is for many including myself, a huge middle finger to the current system as both parties hate him. I would have went third party if Bush would have been the chosen candidate in 2016. My disappointment is he didn't continue hammering the need for term limits as he did when running.
Regardless, "career politician" should not be an accepted term of our vocabulary.

Trump is not a middle finger to the system. That’s a ruse that you fell for. He’s a grifter. The nation’s leading grifter. And he’d try to get a third term without hesitation if he were to win a second.

The Dems at least have campaign finance reform in their platform. They see that it is needed.

Yet they chose a lifetime career hack linked to the Clinton dynasty. And you accuse me of "falling for it?
The third term narrative fear, which would require an amendment from a body hostile to Trump, shows you fell for it.
Frankly, we have two turds running again, I just happen to think Trump isn't as ripe as Biden in the stink of the cesspool we call DC.

That is a type of insanity. Can’t help you.

Didn't ask for your help. Just offered an explanation that you can't accept.
Insanity is pure hatred of a single individual.
Insanity is continuing the status quo only because of that hatred.
If Biden wins, I will accept the outcome while displeased about it, but won't hate the man for it.
Can you do the same if Trump wins?
I highly doubt it.

Not this time. No. Fuck him.

Not this time?

You never did. Which helps explain why we are at this point.

Would you like to bet on that?

Is the “reaction” a yes? How much?

Are we children now?
How about making an actual point?

My point, bitch, is that I fully and publicly accepted the result of the 2016 election and gave the moron ample opportunity to prove himself worthy of the gig.

But now that I’ve witnessed his absolute inability to rise to the position, he will not get support from me if he finds another miracle and gets a second term.

That ship sailed. Fuck him. And fuck you if you vote for him.

Seems you forgot this is CDZ. Your anger is very telling and why you are not worthy of any further discussion. I won't report you and save it for the OP's discretion. I want everyone to see how you can't even make a case for your position without anger and bile and a false misplaced sense of superiority.

 

[Trotsky's Spectre]

Anyone who considers Trump and Biden to be equally unfit is being dishonest

Is that a premise or a conclusion? If it is a conclusion, what premise or premises make it true? If it is a premise, why should we believe it?

-- Trotsky's Spectre --

Edit: Subject verb agreement.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Anyone who considers Trump and Biden to be equally unfit is being dishonest

Is that a premise or a conclusion? If it is a conclusion, what premise make it true? If it is a conclusion, why should we believe it?

Gee whiz! You’re a smart one. I’d better be careful around you! You seem edumacated.

 

[Trotsky's Spectre]

why do you think that is

Statesmen indeed stay low at these times. Yet think you're seeing a confluence of issues, graver and for which there is no solution.

As I see it, 200+ years of constitutional history are breaking down. We face multiple, social crises for which there is no resolution under Capitalism. The working class, but especially youth, are abandoning the institutions and processes of state. Both parties lurch hard to the right; but the next great social movement will be to the left. The ruling class see, but having no remedy can only turn to increasingly authoritarian forms of rule. Nowhere on the spectrum of official politics is there a constituency for defending civil rights. Public faith in the institutions and processes of state lowers ever year. This isn't a partisan problem; there simply remains no progressive potential at this late state of Capitalist development. There is nothing left to be believed. Between an abhorrent miscreant vomited up from the criminal underworld, and a malevolent creature that made a care as a war criminal and ought to be prosecuted as such -- there are no options. In this context, elections are a lie. They have no meaningful authority. They will resolve not one, solitary crisis.

The irony and the tragedy in all this is that what we see is the very best that the system can today produce. The national situation is terminal, and we cannot even discuss it. Fictitious narratives and political static preclude from civic discourse any discussion of real crises. But arguably the state is over already and has fallen. It's just that routine conceals this from the politically illiterate. But that will change. Even now, these glorious elections cannot hide the things I've said from all eyes. Hence, your query.

-- Trotsky's Spectre --

 

[Mac1958]

why do you think that is

Statesmen indeed stay low at these times. Yet think you're seeing a confluence of issues, graver and for which there is no solution.

As I see it, 200+ years of constitutional history are breaking down. We face multiple, social crises for which there is no resolution under Capitalism. The working class, but especially youth, are abandoning the institutions and processes of state. Both parties lurch hard to the right; but the next great social movement will be to the left. The ruling class see, but having no remedy can only turn to increasingly authoritarian forms of rule. Nowhere on the spectrum of official politics is there a constituency for defending civil rights. Public faith in the institutions and processes of state lowers ever year. This isn't a partisan problem; there simply remains no progressive potential at this late state of Capitalist development. There is nothing left to be believed. Between an abhorrent miscreant vomited up from the criminal underworld, and a malevolent creature that made a care as a war criminal and ought to be prosecuted as such -- there are no options. In this context, elections are a lie. They have no meaningful authority. They will resolve not one, solitary crisis.

The irony and the tragedy in all this is that what we see is the very best that the system can today produce. The national situation is terminal, and we cannot even discuss it. Fictitious narratives and political static preclude from civic discourse any discussion of real crises. But arguably the state is over already and has fallen. It's just that routine conceals this from the politically illiterate. But that will change. Even now, these glorious elections cannot hide the things I've said from all eyes. Hence, your query.

-- Trotsky's Spectre --

If this is correct, where are we headed?

 

[Trotsky's Spectre]

where are we headed

We are on the road to war and revolution. We are on the road to WW III and to world revolution. The only question is which will come first.

-- Trotsky's Spectre --

 

[Billiejeens]

Question for Mac. Do you believe that Biden is in the game for us ego?

I think Biden is an old-fashioned, glad-handing, back-slapping career politician whose primary motivation here is saving the country from Trump and Trumpism. Understandable. It's also clear that he is in cognitive decline and has no more business running for President than does Trump. And that's the problem, which brings me back to my question.

What is it that Trump is doing that is such a disaster?

Defeating dem ideas.

 

[Synthaholic]

Looking at the "options" we have in November for President, I can't help but wonder how we got here (by the way, if you think your guy is a great option, this thread probably isn't for you). And full disclosure: It could definitely just be me, and maybe I've just become too cynical over years.

Anyway, for those of you who agree with me that we've really sunk in the quality of our "leaders" and "candidates", why do you think that is? Right now, I can only come up with two ideas:

First, with the advent of the internet and the proliferation of "news" sources (ha ha), I strongly suspect that our REAL "Best & Brightest" know to stay the hell out of politics, since anyone who jumps in will be immediately and viciously attacked in real life, online, and in every other possible way. Their families will be scrutinized to an absurd degree, and they and their families' lives may never be the same again. So we end up with people who just exist only on their egos, everything else be damned.

Second, maybe it's just me/us. Maybe as we age, our cynicism increases and people with big names just impress us less. Maybe the quality of our options hasn't increased much, and my frustration is more about being worn down over time by all the BS than it is about the quality of these people.

Your thoughts?

A large solution is federally financed elections, getting all money out of our politics. Then you find out who is public service-minded and who is an opportunist. Of course, it would decimate the lobbying industry.

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the "options" we have in November for President, I can't help but wonder how we got here (by the way, if you think your guy is a great option, this thread probably isn't for you). And full disclosure: It could definitely just be me, and maybe I've just become too cynical over years.

Anyway, for those of you who agree with me that we've really sunk in the quality of our "leaders" and "candidates", why do you think that is? Right now, I can only come up with two ideas:

First, with the advent of the internet and the proliferation of "news" sources (ha ha), I strongly suspect that our REAL "Best & Brightest" know to stay the hell out of politics, since anyone who jumps in will be immediately and viciously attacked in real life, online, and in every other possible way. Their families will be scrutinized to an absurd degree, and they and their families' lives may never be the same again. So we end up with people who just exist only on their egos, everything else be damned.

Second, maybe it's just me/us. Maybe as we age, our cynicism increases and people with big names just impress us less. Maybe the quality of our options hasn't increased much, and my frustration is more about being worn down over time by all the BS than it is about the quality of these people.

Your thoughts?

A large solution is federally financed elections, getting all money out of our politics. Then you find out who is public service-minded and who is an opportunist. Of course, it would decimate the lobbying industry.

Yep. It sure would be nice if we were paying attention enough to do that.

 

[Synthaholic]

In a perfect world, who would be your nominee?

Of the current crop, Yang, easily. And unfortunately he can't be veep, because he has a dick and the wrong skin color. Such is the state of the Democratic Party.

If the field were wide open, I don't know.

Don’t be disingenuous. It’s not “the state of the Democratic Party”. It was a conscious decision, in 2020, that it was finally time to declare that the VP will be a woman. There is not a thing wrong with that. No different from a Republican saying his VP will be an Evangelical. If you can’t think up more than just a few women who could be VP then that’s on you. I don’t feel like it is limiting in the least.

 

[Synthaholic]

I’m still betting on Kamala.

 

[Mac1958]

In a perfect world, who would be your nominee?

Of the current crop, Yang, easily. And unfortunately he can't be veep, because he has a dick and the wrong skin color. Such is the state of the Democratic Party.

If the field were wide open, I don't know.

Don’t be disingenuous. It’s not “the state of the Democratic Party”. It was a conscious decision, in 2020, that it was finally time to declare that the VP will be a woman. There is not a thing wrong with that. No different from a Republican saying his VP will be an Evangelical. If you can’t think up more than just a few women who could be VP then that’s on you. I don’t feel like it is limiting in the least.

Not limiting in the least, disqualifying at least half the potential veep picks simply because they're men.

And I'm being disingenuous. Okay.

 

[Synthaholic]

In a perfect world, who would be your nominee?

Of the current crop, Yang, easily. And unfortunately he can't be veep, because he has a dick and the wrong skin color. Such is the state of the Democratic Party.

If the field were wide open, I don't know.

Don’t be disingenuous. It’s not “the state of the Democratic Party”. It was a conscious decision, in 2020, that it was finally time to declare that the VP will be a woman. There is not a thing wrong with that. No different from a Republican saying his VP will be an Evangelical. If you can’t think up more than just a few women who could be VP then that’s on you. I don’t feel like it is limiting in the least.

Not limiting in the least, disqualifying at least half the potential veep picks simply because they're men.

And I'm being disingenuous. Okay.

It’s only limiting if you believe there are not many women who could be POTUS.

It’s disingenuous to attribute a positive decision to “the state of the Party”, as if it has fallen or been diminished in some way.

 

[Mac1958]

In a perfect world, who would be your nominee?

Of the current crop, Yang, easily. And unfortunately he can't be veep, because he has a dick and the wrong skin color. Such is the state of the Democratic Party.

If the field were wide open, I don't know.

Don’t be disingenuous. It’s not “the state of the Democratic Party”. It was a conscious decision, in 2020, that it was finally time to declare that the VP will be a woman. There is not a thing wrong with that. No different from a Republican saying his VP will be an Evangelical. If you can’t think up more than just a few women who could be VP then that’s on you. I don’t feel like it is limiting in the least.

Not limiting in the least, disqualifying at least half the potential veep picks simply because they're men.

And I'm being disingenuous. Okay.

It’s only limiting if you believe there are not many women who could be POTUS.

It’s disingenuous to attribute a positive decision to “the state of the Party”, as if it has fallen or been diminished in some way.

I'm being perfectly honest when I say that the party has largely succumbed to political correctness and Identity Politics.

You can certainly deny it, or disagree with it, but the last thing I'm being is disingenuous.

I'm afraid this condition may do in 2020 what it largely did in 2016: Help him win.