House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales

[iceberg]

I think the Texas church mass shooter acquired his weapon by private sale or through a family member, but I'm not 100% on that. This is a guy with a history of criminal domestic abuse, restraining orders, and treatment for mental disorders. He should never have been able to acquire any weapon legally. If he did, I'm all for closing any loophole that allows anyone with a history of domestic violence from ever acquiring a gun, long, short or in-between.

Virtually all recent male mass shooters who had been married or in domestic partnerships, had a history of abuse and violence against their partners. That includes the Vegas shooter, the Texas church shooter, the guy who attacked the Republican baseball game.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...21ef7165923_story.html?utm_term=.9626d49ae4c4

Not to mention the additional dangers domestic abusers pose to the partners and children if they own a gun:

Domestic Violence & Firearms | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

Some jurisdictions have laws in place, but court cases aren't entered into data bases, so these guys slide through. There are many reasonable gun control laws on the books that could and would save lives, if the law enforcement data bases were kept up to date and correct, and all buyers and sellers were using them.

Criminals could care less about following the law. I don't expect you to understand this.

That’s a stupid argument. What idiot told you that made sense?

So if criminals break laws we shouldn’t have laws??

Huh?

Except no one anywhere says that at all.

What they do say is that adding ANOTHER, SECOND LAW, to the one they are already breaking is not relevant. It does nothing because they are already breaking the law in the first place.

Someone that is going to go shoot someone is not going to go, 'oh shit. I cant kill you because it would be illegal for me to buy a gun.'

its like making it illegal to break the law.

Current Federal law prohibits a private sale if the buyer is a convicted felon.

Current Federal law prohibits a private sale if the seller knows the buyer will use the purchased gun to commit a crime.

These existing provisions do not ‘criminalize’ private gun sales.

Likewise, to amend Federal law to require a background check does not ‘criminalize’ private firearm sales.

so you're just as ignorant of the law as you seem.

the entire purpose of this proposal IS TO criminalize private sales.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Criminals could care less about following the law. I don't expect you to understand this.

That’s a stupid argument. What idiot told you that made sense?

So if criminals break laws we shouldn’t have laws??

Huh?

Except no one anywhere says that at all.

What they do say is that adding ANOTHER, SECOND LAW, to the one they are already breaking is not relevant. It does nothing because they are already breaking the law in the first place.

Someone that is going to go shoot someone is not going to go, 'oh shit. I cant kill you because it would be illegal for me to buy a gun.'

its like making it illegal to break the law.

Current Federal law prohibits a private sale if the buyer is a convicted felon.

Current Federal law prohibits a private sale if the seller knows the buyer will use the purchased gun to commit a crime.

These existing provisions do not ‘criminalize’ private gun sales.

Likewise, to amend Federal law to require a background check does not ‘criminalize’ private firearm sales.

so you're just as ignorant of the law as you seem.

the entire purpose of this proposal IS TO criminalize private sales.

The entire effort to oppose this proposal is TO get the highest price for a gun, no matter who is the purchaser or what their intention may be.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If all transfers are to require a background check, then all citizens should have access to the database...

Interesting comment, that would be the kibosh since gun owners do not want their Identity and gun(s) broadcast to the world.

 

[blackhawk]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Even if it passes the House it goes nowhere in the Senate.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Your Bullshit is flowing a wide stream on this one. They are presenting a Universal Background Check. Just like 15 states already have. 60% of the guns possessed by criminals in gangs in inner cities have been purchased legally without background checks even if a background check is required at that location. It's a cottage industry for gun runners to go into locations that have no gun background checks and purchase guns and transport them back into the inner cities and sell them to gang members. What happens if there were 60% fewer guns offered to the Gangs for illegal activities? How many innocent lives does that save? Even if it saves just one that's a good thing.

Now, go back to your lying crap again. Maybe we should have them look into your mental health to see if you are stable enough to possess firearms. Chances are, you are probably one of those that either transport, sell or use those guns for illegal uses. That might explain why you are constantly lying out your rear end.

Background checks for firearm purchases are required nationwide, yet you say only 15 states do it... you lie.

I doubt your 60% number as well, as known gang members are prohibited from "legally" owning a firearm, and background checks are required NATIONWIDE when purchasing a weapon, otherwise it isn't a "legally" purchased firearm.

Strawman purchases are also illegal nationwide, and I have yet to find a place to sell a firearm without doing a background check...From a FFL dealer, whether it be at a shop, gun show, or big box store.

Can the background check system be improved upon? Absolutely, yet the complacency of others shouldn't be heaped upon those that don't commit crimes. Commit to enforcing the laws in place already on the books, fix the reporting to (at least) tighten up the lapses in getting those on a no buy list actually on it (looking at the air force and Broward County.)
Talk FACTUALLY about numbers/percentages and facts, not what one wants to believe to be true, AND stop talking out both sides of your neck. By the way, does that hurt?
So now the question becomes; whose bullshit is flowing a wide stream?

did I hit a nerve there? I've already posted the cites numerous times to back the facts and figures up. You just can't stand that they actually exist. And to use your own argument, Criminals don't follow laws so they will buy those weapons illegal that are transported into their areas. You seem to believe that the Criminals all follow the laws. I guess they only follow YOUR laws and not anyone elses.

I notice that you don't say that Strawman Purchases don't happen. Well, cupcake, they happen way to often and are the easiest to stop for those that buy quantities of firearms for transport. We stopped them here cold. It doesn't take but a couple of the buyers ending up in a State Pen to discourage the others to go across to Kansas and buy their guns there. Are you seeing a problem here? You call them strawman purchases. They aren't. They are perfectly legal transactions at the time of the purchase if there is not a universal background check in place. It isn't illegal for them to transport them over the state lines if it's for personal use. But it IS to setll them at their destination. Both State and Federal Laws come into play on that one. By having universal background checks, the bulk buys pretty much disappears since the Feds are also going to be out there trying to be buyers as well. The ONLY way to prevent those bulk firearms sales from happening out of a Denny's parking lot is to pass universal background checks for all states and then enforce them. At that point, the Criminals have fewer weapons. And will have to work harder and more dangerous to obtain to get new ones. Meaning, fewer bad guys with guns. There are very few drive by battings.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

If all transfers are to require a background check, then all citizens should have access to the database...

Interesting comment, that would be the kibosh since gun owners do not want their Identity and gun(s) broadcast to the world.

A Background Check will NOT send any information of the firearm forward. It will send the information the individual on a temporary basis. It's an inquiry only and no database is kept of it. The only record is kept by the Firearms Licensed Individual that ran it in the first place. And then he will keep it on file for X years before destroying it or unless he pulls the plug and then it will go to the ATF. The only time a record is kept is when someone fails the background check and that will be forwarded to the appropriate agencies.

 

[FA_Q2]

If all transfers are to require a background check, then all citizens should have access to the database...

Interesting comment, that would be the kibosh since gun owners do not want their Identity and gun(s) broadcast to the world.

That is why the idea of a background check ID was floated a few years back.

A FAR better solution than the one presented here IMHO. It just has to be free.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Even if it passes the House it goes nowhere in the Senate.

No, I can't come up with a single one where a mass shooting would have been prevented by background checks but I can come up with thousands where it would have in a smaller scale.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

If all transfers are to require a background check, then all citizens should have access to the database...

Interesting comment, that would be the kibosh since gun owners do not want their Identity and gun(s) broadcast to the world.

That is why the idea of a background check ID was floated a few years back.

A FAR better solution than the one presented here IMHO. It just has to be free.

The Background ID was floated and failed because it Identified the buy by name and it could easily have gone into a Database. The universal background check does not identify the person at all since it's an inquiry which is just a DB search only.

 

[Lesh]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Even if it passes the House it goes nowhere in the Senate.

Which means that we need to change the make up of the Senate and get these idiot Republicans OUT

 

[2aguy]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Key words: "mass shooting".

Can you state definitively that none of the 15,000 gun homicides each year in America were done by guns acquired this way?

According to the FBI in 2017 the gun murder number was 10,982.....

Number of people killed in mass public shootings in 2017? 117

The majority of crime guns are stolen or bought through straw buyers...people who can pass any background check.

 

[2aguy]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Even if it passes the House it goes nowhere in the Senate.

No, I can't come up with a single one where a mass shooting would have been prevented by background checks but I can come up with thousands where it would have in a smaller scale.

No, you can't....since criminals steal their guns or use straw buyers, individuals who can pass a background check, which means they would pass a background check for a private sale....you doofus.

 

[2aguy]

I just bought a little number from a friend who was strapped for cash. We met up at the local gun shop, I paid a small fee for a background check, and zipideedodah, we were done. The gun was transferred to me in minutes.

No big deal.

That fee is unConstitutional.....you can't charge fees for the exercise of a Right....Supreme Court ruling in Murdock v Pennsylvania...

 

[Daryl Hunt]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Even if it passes the House it goes nowhere in the Senate.

Which means that we need to change the make up of the Senate and get these idiot Republicans OUT

The Republicans in the Senate are starting to wake up and stopping to following blindly the Orange Individual 1. It's been coming for a couple of years. The threats are no longer doing the job like they once did.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I just bought a little number from a friend who was strapped for cash. We met up at the local gun shop, I paid a small fee for a background check, and zipideedodah, we were done. The gun was transferred to me in minutes.

No big deal.

That fee is unConstitutional.....you can't charge fees for the exercise of a Right....Supreme Court ruling in Murdock v Pennsylvania...

You want to take the Dealers time for nothing? It's not a tax. It a fee for services rendered. As for Murdock V unless it's a religious pamphlet, it doesn't apply. You back to misquoting Supreme Court rulings again? Stop making shit up.

 

[2aguy]

I just bought a little number from a friend who was strapped for cash. We met up at the local gun shop, I paid a small fee for a background check, and zipideedodah, we were done. The gun was transferred to me in minutes.

No big deal.

That fee is unConstitutional.....you can't charge fees for the exercise of a Right....Supreme Court ruling in Murdock v Pennsylvania...

You want to take the Dealers time for nothing? It's not a tax. It a fee for services rendered. As for Murdock V unless it's a religious pamphlet, it doesn't apply. You back to misquoting Supreme Court rulings again? Stop making shit up.

It is a compulsory fee....it is unConstitutional......you moron.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I just bought a little number from a friend who was strapped for cash. We met up at the local gun shop, I paid a small fee for a background check, and zipideedodah, we were done. The gun was transferred to me in minutes.

No big deal.

That fee is unConstitutional.....you can't charge fees for the exercise of a Right....Supreme Court ruling in Murdock v Pennsylvania...

You want to take the Dealers time for nothing? It's not a tax. It a fee for services rendered. As for Murdock V unless it's a religious pamphlet, it doesn't apply. You back to misquoting Supreme Court rulings again? Stop making shit up.

It is a compulsory fee....it is unConstitutional......you moron.

If you can find a FL to do it for free then there is no fee. But one should always pay a business for their time even if it's for just a few minutes to help pay for the lights. You lost this argument as of 1992.

 

[Staidhup]

The problem is they have no way to enforce it, or monitor it. I can see it now, all the whacko's and crimps are going to line up and abide by the law then "poof" no more gun violence. Way too funny to think there are those that think this will solve anything, leave it to the Dim's to lead the way down red brick road to see the Wizard.

 

[DamnDude]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Your Bullshit is flowing a wide stream on this one. They are presenting a Universal Background Check. Just like 15 states already have. 60% of the guns possessed by criminals in gangs in inner cities have been purchased legally without background checks even if a background check is required at that location. It's a cottage industry for gun runners to go into locations that have no gun background checks and purchase guns and transport them back into the inner cities and sell them to gang members. What happens if there were 60% fewer guns offered to the Gangs for illegal activities? How many innocent lives does that save? Even if it saves just one that's a good thing.

Now, go back to your lying crap again. Maybe we should have them look into your mental health to see if you are stable enough to possess firearms. Chances are, you are probably one of those that either transport, sell or use those guns for illegal uses. That might explain why you are constantly lying out your rear end.

Background checks for firearm purchases are required nationwide, yet you say only 15 states do it... you lie.

I doubt your 60% number as well, as known gang members are prohibited from "legally" owning a firearm, and background checks are required NATIONWIDE when purchasing a weapon, otherwise it isn't a "legally" purchased firearm.

Strawman purchases are also illegal nationwide, and I have yet to find a place to sell a firearm without doing a background check...From a FFL dealer, whether it be at a shop, gun show, or big box store.

Can the background check system be improved upon? Absolutely, yet the complacency of others shouldn't be heaped upon those that don't commit crimes. Commit to enforcing the laws in place already on the books, fix the reporting to (at least) tighten up the lapses in getting those on a no buy list actually on it (looking at the air force and Broward County.)
Talk FACTUALLY about numbers/percentages and facts, not what one wants to believe to be true, AND stop talking out both sides of your neck. By the way, does that hurt?
So now the question becomes; whose bullshit is flowing a wide stream?

did I hit a nerve there? I've already posted the cites numerous times to back the facts and figures up. You just can't stand that they actually exist. And to use your own argument, Criminals don't follow laws so they will buy those weapons illegal that are transported into their areas. You seem to believe that the Criminals all follow the laws. I guess they only follow YOUR laws and not anyone elses.

I notice that you don't say that Strawman Purchases don't happen. Well, cupcake, they happen way to often and are the easiest to stop for those that buy quantities of firearms for transport. We stopped them here cold. It doesn't take but a couple of the buyers ending up in a State Pen to discourage the others to go across to Kansas and buy their guns there. Are you seeing a problem here? You call them strawman purchases. They aren't. They are perfectly legal transactions at the time of the purchase if there is not a universal background check in place. It isn't illegal for them to transport them over the state lines if it's for personal use. But it IS to setll them at their destination. Both State and Federal Laws come into play on that one. By having universal background checks, the bulk buys pretty much disappears since the Feds are also going to be out there trying to be buyers as well. The ONLY way to prevent those bulk firearms sales from happening out of a Denny's parking lot is to pass universal background checks for all states and then enforce them. At that point, the Criminals have fewer weapons. And will have to work harder and more dangerous to obtain to get new ones. Meaning, fewer bad guys with guns. There are very few drive by battings.

Nah, you missed, again. Your musings and wishes mean nothing to factual people.
Where did I state, in any manner, that criminals follow the law?? Seriously, are you that brain damaged?
What I stated before, about strawman purchases, stands, they are illegal, nowhere did I say otherwise, so you interpreting it that way is on you and those that educated you; comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it, cupcake?

When someone buys a firearm to give to a known felon, mentally ill person, suicidal individual, gang banger, et al a firearm, then it is with illegal intent. An individual buying a bulk of firearms, for "personal use" multiple times should raise red flags, especially if they are using the same FFL dealer.... Most of your FFL dealers (this is my opinion) would report to ATF, or state agency if they saw something like this happening, So, if your analogy of bulk buyer making multiple firearm purchases, going across state lines to illegally sell said firearms, is BREAKING THE LAW. It's like buying alcohol for minors... NOT LEGAL, both at state and federal levels..... not to mention city ordinances. There are laws already on the books, enforce those before making an already bad situation on the law abiding folks.
You amuse me.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

House Democrats Plan Vote to Criminalize Private Gun Sales This Week

i'm all for reviewing laws and changes that we know would affect events that have happened. this does nothing of the sort. it means if i sell my gun to my brother, i'm a criminal if i don't do a background check.

fine. i'll give it to him. problem solved.

but you can't name a single mass shooting where the gun was obtained in this manner. yet, this is what we're after.

Your Bullshit is flowing a wide stream on this one. They are presenting a Universal Background Check. Just like 15 states already have. 60% of the guns possessed by criminals in gangs in inner cities have been purchased legally without background checks even if a background check is required at that location. It's a cottage industry for gun runners to go into locations that have no gun background checks and purchase guns and transport them back into the inner cities and sell them to gang members. What happens if there were 60% fewer guns offered to the Gangs for illegal activities? How many innocent lives does that save? Even if it saves just one that's a good thing.

Now, go back to your lying crap again. Maybe we should have them look into your mental health to see if you are stable enough to possess firearms. Chances are, you are probably one of those that either transport, sell or use those guns for illegal uses. That might explain why you are constantly lying out your rear end.

Background checks for firearm purchases are required nationwide, yet you say only 15 states do it... you lie.

I doubt your 60% number as well, as known gang members are prohibited from "legally" owning a firearm, and background checks are required NATIONWIDE when purchasing a weapon, otherwise it isn't a "legally" purchased firearm.

Strawman purchases are also illegal nationwide, and I have yet to find a place to sell a firearm without doing a background check...From a FFL dealer, whether it be at a shop, gun show, or big box store.

Can the background check system be improved upon? Absolutely, yet the complacency of others shouldn't be heaped upon those that don't commit crimes. Commit to enforcing the laws in place already on the books, fix the reporting to (at least) tighten up the lapses in getting those on a no buy list actually on it (looking at the air force and Broward County.)
Talk FACTUALLY about numbers/percentages and facts, not what one wants to believe to be true, AND stop talking out both sides of your neck. By the way, does that hurt?
So now the question becomes; whose bullshit is flowing a wide stream?

did I hit a nerve there? I've already posted the cites numerous times to back the facts and figures up. You just can't stand that they actually exist. And to use your own argument, Criminals don't follow laws so they will buy those weapons illegal that are transported into their areas. You seem to believe that the Criminals all follow the laws. I guess they only follow YOUR laws and not anyone elses.

I notice that you don't say that Strawman Purchases don't happen. Well, cupcake, they happen way to often and are the easiest to stop for those that buy quantities of firearms for transport. We stopped them here cold. It doesn't take but a couple of the buyers ending up in a State Pen to discourage the others to go across to Kansas and buy their guns there. Are you seeing a problem here? You call them strawman purchases. They aren't. They are perfectly legal transactions at the time of the purchase if there is not a universal background check in place. It isn't illegal for them to transport them over the state lines if it's for personal use. But it IS to setll them at their destination. Both State and Federal Laws come into play on that one. By having universal background checks, the bulk buys pretty much disappears since the Feds are also going to be out there trying to be buyers as well. The ONLY way to prevent those bulk firearms sales from happening out of a Denny's parking lot is to pass universal background checks for all states and then enforce them. At that point, the Criminals have fewer weapons. And will have to work harder and more dangerous to obtain to get new ones. Meaning, fewer bad guys with guns. There are very few drive by battings.

Nah, you missed, again. Your musings and wishes mean nothing to factual people.
Where did I state, in any manner, that criminals follow the law?? Seriously, are you that brain damaged?
What I stated before, about strawman purchases, stands, they are illegal, nowhere did I say otherwise, so you interpreting it that way is on you and those that educated you; comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it, cupcake?

When someone buys a firearm to give to a known felon, mentally ill person, suicidal individual, gang banger, et al a firearm, then it is with illegal intent. An individual buying a bulk of firearms, for "personal use" multiple times should raise red flags, especially if they are using the same FFL dealer.... Most of your FFL dealers (this is my opinion) would report to ATF, or state agency if they saw something like this happening, So, if your analogy of bulk buyer making multiple firearm purchases, going across state lines to illegally sell said firearms, is BREAKING THE LAW. It's like buying alcohol for minors... NOT LEGAL, both at state and federal levels..... not to mention city ordinances. There are laws already on the books, enforce those before making an already bad situation on the law abiding folks.
You amuse me.

The law specifically says that the FFL dealer MUST report it. Chances are, the Dealer won't go through with the sale but gather all the information for his report to the ATF.