Debate Now Honest Debate About Abortion: Rules Posted

[martybegan]

Funny that.

I doubt abortions activists are that altruistic.

 

[martybegan]

Are you a life begins at conception sort?

Life does, because at that point it's a separate organism, a unique human life.

My issue is balancing my moral quandary with that against my lack of desire for government to force things.

Which is why for birth control abortions I'm somewhere between 10-15 weeks enforcing a ban.

 

[martybegan]

Life at 5 weeks. That's an interesting concept. At 4 weeks it's dead but at 5 weeks it's alive.
Hmmm

It's a lifeform, therefore it's a life. You want to get into the metaphysics of souls, individualism and existence, that's probably for another thread.

 

[Flopper]

The thing is that support ends at the 2nd trimester for birth control abortions, sometimes it ends at the 1st.

I support a ban on birth control abortions from 10-15 weeks. What does that make me?

Pro Live/Pro Choice.

91% of abortions are performed by end first 12 weeks. 98.7% are performed within first 20 weeks. Late term abortions after the first 20 weeks are almost always due to medical complications. Rather than deal with abortions laws, most OB-GYNs in pro-life states will not perform abortions even if it is medical necessary because it puts doctors in a situation where they will have justify their decision or face lost of their license or even prison. Abortion should between doctor and patient not the goverment. This is why I believe abortion should be a medical not legal decision.

 

[cnm]

Life does, because at that point it's a separate organism, a unique human life.

My issue is balancing my moral quandary with that against my lack of desire for government to force things.

Which is why for birth control abortions I'm somewhere between 10-15 weeks enforcing a ban.

That position seems completely contradictory to me. I see why actual images upset you.

 

[cnm]

It's a lifeform, therefore it's a life. You want to get into the metaphysics of souls, individualism and existence, that's probably for another thread.

A sperm is a lifeform. How many have you murdered?

 

[Flopper]

There is no one on the planet more pro life than I am. I see abortion for convenience as nothing more than ending the life of a human being.

But it think it wrong to ban abortion at ANY stage because there are circumstances in which abortion is the ethical choice however painful it might be to make that choice. And when abortion is necessary for the life of the mother or to save the lives of multiple babies in the womb, the doctor and patient should be able to make that decision without interference from government.

But whether for convenience or out of medical necessity or any other reason, an ethical society will always be aware and realizing that abortion ends a human life. And the ethical choice must always keep that fact in mind.

I have no problem with laws allowing doctors to perform abortions only when necessary--what is 'necessary' will always require critical thought and debate--and requiring that only licensed medical doctors can legally perform abortions. That was pretty much the law of the land until Roe v Wade.

The wide availability of the abortion pill will soon make abortion laws impossible to enforce. The pill can be purchase now online in all 50 states and sent to your home from a us seller at $275 a pill. Women can buy the pill at a much lower cost from online sellers in 37 countries.

For women who want hand holding from medical personnel, they can contact Planned Parenthood for a telephone interview and a prescription. However, Planned Parenthood will only mail the prescription to addresses where it is legal so a third party has to mail it to women in the slave states

For those who live near the Mexican border, they can buy the pill over the counter at border town pharmacies.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

consequences of high-volume sex?

do you really consider the with holding of pregnancy mitagation to be a just punishment for the "high volume " sex forced upon a 13 year old by her step father?

You're missing the mark twice here:

1. Of course I meant voluntary "high volume" sex
2. You're speaking of the extreme exception, I'm speaking of the more common, general issue.

i'm not sure that a woman carrying a dead fetus which is rotting her organs should be treated as a high volume sex criminal.

Nobody said anything you said. If you have to strawman and be extremely hyperbolic, perhaps this thread isn't for you.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

What needs to occur is a ruling on when life begins from the Federal government.

It is akin to the slave issue. Did they possess natural rights? They later ruled they did.

It is far more complex than to slavery. Slaves were born humans. The idea of "what is a human" involves the philosophical as well as the medical and biological.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I don't think you can completely eliminate the political aspect,

You largely can, it can be lightly referenced sure... but no childish flame wars in this thread please.

because the crux of the question is when does the new life's existence become equal to or takes precedence over the whims of the mother?

Well, if a life is a life, then it deserves protection.

Meanwhile, the "whims of the mother" line holds minimal weight when compared to a life. Most abortions arise from said mother participating in acts that, well, are designed to produce children.

It amazes me how many don't understand that sex causes impregnation.

 

[Flopper]

You largely can, it can be lightly referenced sure... but no childish flame wars in this thread please.

Well, if a life is a life, then it deserves protection.

Meanwhile, the "whims of the mother" line holds minimal weight when compared to a life. Most abortions arise from said mother participating in acts that, well, are designed to produce children.

It amazes me how many don't understand that sex causes impregnation.

With lack of any real sex education in many states it is not surprising. It is interesting that states with the most restrictive abortion laws do not mandate any sex education in schools.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I will bite.

Here begins the rant:

Abortion is a terrible thing.

Agreed

However, it is an issue between the woman and her doctor.

That statement is not only illogical and irrational, but it's scary.

1. Why should a singular woman decide when a human being becomes a human being based on how she feels or what her life situation is? A human is a human no matter what the situations are.

2. What if a doctor is a psychopath who doesn't mind killing babies?

So many major politicians say that line too.. it equates to asking a mob boss and a crooked cop if your life is worth protecting.

Government interference effectively interferes with the most basic of rights - the right to self. It literally creates a slavery system where the woman is now slave to the baby.

My... What a horrible mindset to have about the gift of life. You're referring to a beautiful biological reality that women have the superpower of making children. That's what makes women uniquely special. You appear to be in the doldrums and think it's a curse.

It is a personal thing, and there are many reasons it occurs. The woman is not ready. The woman has children already. The woman has health issues. The baby may have been wanted, but abnormalities have been discovered. But whatever the reason, it is a personal decision between her and the doctor, and the STATE has no right to interfere with a person's most fundamental right of self.

If the human is alive, the state has the right to protect that life from a mother who wants to kill it for likely selfish reasons.

If one is against abortion, then personally don't have an abortion. But using the power of the STATE, the power of MEN with GUNS to impose your will on half the population's very bodies, is not acceptable.

The "STATE"... and the power of "MEN with GUNS" should be used to protect human life from those who wish to immorally kill it.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Th majorities of both men (61%) and women (64%) expressed support for legal abortion. When asked if you considered yourself pro choice or pro life, only 41% said pro life. The support for legalized abortion has been increasing for over a decade as confirmed by both PEW and Gallup polls. Gallup reports that the support for making abortion illegal in all cases case has fallen to a new low 12%. With a majority of adults favoring legal abortion, a national law seems very unlikely.

With the abortion pill now available without prescription and available by mail legally in many states and avail by mail from outside country, state laws against abortion will be enforced about as well as state prohibition laws.

Abortion Trends by Age

This page provides Gallup's long-term trends on Americans' views about abortion by age, including their views on legality and their preferred label.

news.gallup.com

Public Opinion on Abortion

While public support for legal abortion has fluctuated some in two decades of polling, it has remained relatively stable over the past five years.

www.pewresearch.org

You'd have to define your terms. Does "pro-life" mean all abortion? Despite my personal stance, I offered 5 weeks, or at the heart beat.

And hey, ending slavery was a minority opinion back in the 1800's.. would you be trying to use the pro-slavery poll numbers as a club on those who spoke against it as you're doing here with abortion numbers?

Address the issue, not whether it's "acceptable".. our society has had MANY things that became popular that were disgusting. That's a very poor metric to use.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

. Abortion should between doctor and patient not the goverment. This is why I believe abortion should be a medical not legal decision.

That's a horrible idea, because that makes the definition a human being subjective to 2 random people.

It's either worthy of protection or its not. Just because Suzy and Dr. Kavorkian say it's okay to kill a 30 week year old baby doesn't make it right. That baby should be protected from those people.

 

[Foxfyre]

The wide availability of the abortion pill will soon make abortion laws impossible to enforce. The pill can be purchase now online in all 50 states and sent to your home from a us seller at $275 a pill. Women can buy the pill at a much lower cost from online sellers in 37 countries.

For women who want hand holding from medical personnel, they can contact Planned Parenthood for a telephone interview and a prescription. However, Planned Parenthood will only mail the prescription to addresses where it is legal so a third party has to mail it to women in the slave states

For those who live near the Mexican border, they can buy the pill over the counter at border town pharmacies.

Probably true. But the pill is safe only through the first 10 weeks. And while more than 90% of abortions are done within the first 20 weeks it is almost impossible to find data of how many of those abortions are between 10 and 20 weeks.

But your point is well taken. Short of outlawing the abortion pill, the states will have little control over that. It all comes down to the ethics and values of the mother, whether she considers that being she helped create to be a human baby or something acceptable to kill and put in the trash. I choose not to judge the decision women make in these matters.

But I do want our culture to recognize that the developing baby is a human being. Not a human soul makes in into and out of this world without going through that stage. And I want a world that promotes a culture of life and not throwaway babies.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

With lack of real sex education in many states it is not surprising.

It's definitely not sex education, it's the cause from two things:

1. The women's sexual revolution, and encouraging women to be sexually promiscuous and basically act like immature men, in the name of "equality", when their biology and behavioral psychology are completely different and cause MASSIVE differences. The biology is obvious, but women generally aren't able to have tons of partners without emotional damage. Women attain more emotional connection in sex, even if they do their best to mentally block it out by reciting third wave feminist ideology. Men generally are able to have many partners and are not only unaffected but often rewarded for it by status or by their programming in creating more offspring than others.

2. The easy access to abortions and the late cut off has allowed women to be reckless in sex and simply abort the result, which means they don't hold themselves accountable for their actions.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

There is no one on the planet more pro life than I am. I see abortion for convenience as nothing more than ending the life of a human being.

But it think it wrong to ban abortion at ANY stage

6 months? 9 months?

the doctor and patient should be able to make that decision without interference from government.

If a human being is defined medically, philosophically, and biologically... then it deserves protection no matter what the circumstances are. Thus, if it's a human, the government should protect that life from a women and/or doctor who would end it.

We need objective truth, not subjective situations.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Funny that.

You can post correct or incorrect pictures until you're blue in the face. It doesn't prove anything. Life isn't a photo shoot.

I once heard an accurate description given from Bill Burr, a largely non-political comedian. Basically, the analogy is that if he's wanting to make a cake, and he goes through the trouble of mixing all the ingredients, putting them in a pan, and putting it in the oven.... then you come over, open the oven, take the pan, and toss it across the room spilling the ingredients everywhere... you'd be ruining his cake.

You could say "Well it's not cake YET"... but if you didn't come do the thing that you did it WOULD have been.

This is a tried and true natural process. We know what happens biologically.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Reporting people for posting slightly off topic? Wow.

Let me know how that works out.

"slightly off topic"?

I don't think you read the trash posts I was referring to.

 

[Foxfyre]

6 months? 9 months?

If a human being is defined medically, philosophically, and biologically... then it deserves protection no matter what the circumstances are. Thus, if it's a human, the government should protect that life from a women and/or doctor who would end it.

We need objective truth, not subjective situations.

My point is that there are ethical reasons to have an abortion. If the pregnancy is determined to put the mother at serious risk and she is needed by other already born children, what should the choice be? Woman who are unable to conceive other than via fertility pills often are faced with multiple babies that have little chance to live unless one or more are removed from the womb. Should a woman be required to take to full term a baby so damaged it has little or chance to experience life? I don't want government to make these decisions for her. It should be between her, her husband and her doctor.

If the law is that doctors cannot perform an UNNECESSARY abortion, then there should be no time limit given on when abortion becomes necessity. In a culture of life there must be protection for the unborn, yes, but not at the expense of giving government tyrannical authority that takes all choice from the mother, father, doctor.