Debate Now Honest Debate About Abortion: Rules Posted

[martybegan]

I'm sure your wimmin folk 'preciate yor concern.

Photos show what pregnancy tissue really looks like before 10 weeks

Clinicians with the MYA Network are sharing what early pregnancy tissue looks like, from four to nine weeks of gestation.

www.businessinsider.com

Then what I posted is wrong?

Or is this just a size comparison?

I posted a chart with far more detail.

 

[martybegan]

I'm amazed facts have no effect on you.


Yeah, right.

I googled fetus at 9 weeks and all of them showed what I posted, not some puff of cotton.

 

[cnm]

Decidua, or uterine lining, at four weeks of pregnancy. MYA Network

 

[cnm]

I posted a chart with far more detail.

These are actual photographic images, you know, science. Not some Taliban artist's conception.

 

[martybegan]

Decidua, or uterine lining, at four weeks of pregnancy. MYA Network

that's not a fetus.

and 4 weeks on my chart is basically still a recognizable organism.

 

[cnm]

Photos show what pregnancy tissue really looks like before 10 weeks

Clinicians with the MYA Network are sharing what early pregnancy tissue looks like, from four to nine weeks of gestation.

www.businessinsider.com

​

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Most images of pregnancy show a fetus in the later stages of development, which leaves an information gap for the earliest stages of pregnancy, Dr. Joan Fleischman told Insider.​

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Fleischman, a family doctor, has provided abortions for more than 25 years. She regularly removes tissue associated with early pregnancy, but most people don't get to see what she sees in her job.​

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This was the idea behind "The Issue of Tissue," a collection of photos of fetal tissue published by the MYA Network. The network includes doctors, patients, and activists seeking to counter misinformation about pregnancy and abortion. ​

Can't imagine how she could ever think that.

 

[martybegan]

These are actual photographic images, you know, science. Not some Taliban artist's conception.

I looked up your photo, it says "fetal tissue", not an actual fetus.

So your 1 photo vs all the others that look like what I posted.

 

[martybegan]

Photos show what pregnancy tissue really looks like before 10 weeks

Clinicians with the MYA Network are sharing what early pregnancy tissue looks like, from four to nine weeks of gestation.

www.businessinsider.com

​

​

Most images of pregnancy show a fetus in the later stages of development, which leaves an information gap for the earliest stages of pregnancy, Dr. Joan Fleischman told Insider.​

​

Fleischman, a family doctor, has provided abortions for more than 25 years. She regularly removes tissue associated with early pregnancy, but most people don't get to see what she sees in her job.​

​

This was the idea behind "The Issue of Tissue," a collection of photos of fetal tissue published by the MYA Network. The network includes doctors, patients, and activists seeking to counter misinformation about pregnancy and abortion. ​

Can't imagine how she could ever think that.

Again "fetal tissue"

Not a healthy developing fetus.

And once I saw the word "activists" I know you are just posting propaganda.

 

[cnm]

Gestational sac at five weeks of pregnancy. MYA Network

In the first nine weeks of pregnancy, the developing embryo is a microscopic cluster of cells.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB/GYN who was not involved in the project, told Insider that the photos of pregnancy tissue accurately depict what she sees when she provides abortion care or miscarriage management at this stage of pregnancy.

"Usually we're seeing the sac and the decidua together," Brandi said. "Sometimes our jobs, in order to make sure that we've removed the pregnancy, involve weeding through the decidua in order to find this very, very tiny sac. But this is all we would see."

 

[Foxfyre]

Granted, a very polarizing topic in today's political landscape.

However, I'm happy to discuss the topic with people in good faith who aren't seeking to ego-post, troll, slander, insult, etc. Such discourse is just boring, and I lose interest.

Rules:
1. No political references or accusations. It's about the act of abortion only.
2. No flaming/insults
3. No involving religion.

My take:
At this time, Abortion should be banned after 5 weeks, or what some states view as the "heart beat bill". As science increases on the human fetus (fetus means "offspring"), it increasingly tells us that earlier and earlier measures must be taken to protect it.

This is a unique scenario that is sex-specific, thus, one cannot approach it if you view both sexes as completely and entirely equal in all physical aspects (which is biologically easily proven to be untrue).

I think there are 2 modern viewpoints on abortion.

One is from a victim mentality, with the primary focus on how the consequences of high-volume sex are "forced" onto women, how it's some sort of biological unfairness, how only women can dictate when a life should begin, how consequence-free sexual pleasure is a "right" despite biological truths, and how they should be able to be "freed" from this biological truth by putting their own interests in front of the "consequence" (aka natural cause) of the action they chose to participate in.

The other is from two mentalities, one from the philosophical, the other from the medical. It simply seeks to innocently define what human life is, and no sexes are excluded from discussing this topic, as it effects all humanity. It addresses what the act of sex causes, establishes the differences that the act has on men and women, and acknowledges how these results manifest in society. It promotes the idea that men and women are biologically different, and how that truth will manifest differently in the world by their abilities and choices. It is compassionate to the vulnerable, innocent possible-beings that are voiceless to speak out in the name of supporting their right to their own life/existence, and references medical definitions of life to provide evidence to support these claims.

What Say you?

There is no one on the planet more pro life than I am. I see abortion for convenience as nothing more than ending the life of a human being.

But it think it wrong to ban abortion at ANY stage because there are circumstances in which abortion is the ethical choice however painful it might be to make that choice. And when abortion is necessary for the life of the mother or to save the lives of multiple babies in the womb, the doctor and patient should be able to make that decision without interference from government.

But whether for convenience or out of medical necessity or any other reason, an ethical society will always be aware and realizing that abortion ends a human life. And the ethical choice must always keep that fact in mind.

I have no problem with laws allowing doctors to perform abortions only when necessary--what is 'necessary' will always require critical thought and debate--and requiring that only licensed medical doctors can legally perform abortions. That was pretty much the law of the land until Roe v Wade.

 

[martybegan]

Gestational sac at five weeks of pregnancy. MYA Network

Again, not a fetus.

You keep skipping around the words like you think I am not going to notice it.

 

[cnm]

There is no "heart" at six weeks of pregnancy.​

At six weeks of pregnancy, some of the cells that will later form the heart begin to "beat."

This electrical activity can be seen on an ultrasound, giving rise to so-called "heartbeat bills" that ban abortion after six weeks.

However, the heart does not yet exist at six weeks of pregnancy. There are cells that will come together to form the heart, but they don't function as a heart until much later in the pregnancy.

In fact, many states outlaw abortion at before the fetus would be able to survive outside of the uterus. An embryo becomes a fetus at 10 weeks of pregnancy, but that fetus is unlikely to survive outside of a pregnant person until about 23 weeks gestation, Brandi said.

 

[cnm]

The gestational sac houses the developing embryo.​

Gestational sac at seven weeks of pregnancy.

The gestational sac is a thin membrane filled with fluid that will nourish the embryo and fetus throughout the pregnancy. The embryo essentially creates its own "house" in the beginning stages of pregnancy, Fleischman said.

This sac is visible from about five weeks onward. Here, at seven weeks, it measures about an inch in diameter.

While the photos offer a rarely seen perspective on early development, they can't capture the nuances of how people feel about their pregnancies, Brandi added.

"For some people, this is a clump of cells," she said. "For other people, this is a very desired baby. I think it's okay to honor both of those things."

 

[martybegan]

There is no "heart" at six weeks of pregnancy.​

At six weeks of pregnancy, some of the cells that will later form the heart begin to "beat."

This electrical activity can be seen on an ultrasound, giving rise to so-called "heartbeat bills" that ban abortion after six weeks.

However, the heart does not yet exist at six weeks of pregnancy. There are cells that will come together to form the heart, but they don't function as a heart until much later in the pregnancy.

In fact, many states outlaw abortion at before the fetus would be able to survive outside of the uterus. An embryo becomes a fetus at 10 weeks of pregnancy, but that fetus is unlikely to survive outside of a pregnant person until about 23 weeks gestation, Brandi said.

Arguing to the wrong person, as I see the birth control abortion limit at 10-15 weeks.

And the survival thing is meaningless, because put an infant in the street and they won't last long either.

 

[cnm]

Photos show what pregnancy tissue really looks like before 10 weeks

Clinicians with the MYA Network are sharing what early pregnancy tissue looks like, from four to nine weeks of gestation.

www.businessinsider.com

"This is what the vast majority of abortion care looks like," Brandi said.​

Gestational sac at eight weeks of pregnancy.

"It's important to dispel myths about abortion and early pregnancy care — that it's not necessarily what people see on billboards that anti-choice people carry," she continued.

With "The Issue of Tissue," the MYA network aims to fill the information gap surrounding early pregnancy.

"We're not saying anything about a good or bad time to end a pregnancy," Fleischman told Insider. "We're simply saying this is missing information that was out there, and I think you can see from the response that people are pretty surprised by what it looks like."

 

[martybegan]

The gestational sac houses the developing embryo.​

Gestational sac at seven weeks of pregnancy.

The gestational sac is a thin membrane filled with fluid that will nourish the embryo and fetus throughout the pregnancy. The embryo essentially creates its own "house" in the beginning stages of pregnancy, Fleischman said.

This sac is visible from about five weeks onward. Here, at seven weeks, it measures about an inch in diameter.

While the photos offer a rarely seen perspective on early development, they can't capture the nuances of how people feel about their pregnancies, Brandi added.

"For some people, this is a clump of cells," she said. "For other people, this is a very desired baby. I think it's okay to honor both of those things."

It's just more attempts to justify your position without just saying you are OK with a life being taken.

I've moved past that point of my position, evidently you need rationalizations to continue with yours.

 

[cnm]

"We're not saying anything about a good or bad time to end a pregnancy," Fleischman told Insider. "We're simply saying this is missing information that was out there, and I think you can see from the response that people are pretty surprised by what it looks like."

Funny that.

 

[cnm]

It's just more attempts to justify your position without just saying you are OK with a life being taken.

Are you a life begins at conception sort?

 

[cnm]

It's just more attempts to justify your position without just saying you are OK with a life being taken.

I've moved past that point of my position, evidently you need rationalizations to continue with yours.

Posting actual photos of actual tissue? But your point is that you're ok with a 'life' being taken, right?

 

[cnm]

Life at 5 weeks. That's an interesting concept. At 4 weeks it's dead but at 5 weeks it's alive.
Hmmm