Honest and open debate on gun control

[ErikViking]

They will not be issued equipment? Any equipment issued will be taken back if the condition of mental stability isn't met.

And this prevents a criminal from illegally buying or stealing a gun?

Maybe, it will be decided by society's will to pursue and prevent, just like drugs, speeding or any other breaking of the law.

Any black market enterprise would also suffer from the fact that people are provided (for free?) what they need if they are seemed fit.

 

[Nosmo King]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

 

[52ndStreet]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

There should be no infringement on 2nd amendment rights. Fully automatic assault rifles and submachine guns
must be made available to all citizens to prevent tyrannical governments and to defend against foreign and domestics groups bent on destroying the American government. There must not be any outright bans.
We must be aware terrorist are already armed with fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
Americans must also be equally armed to deal with that situation.

 

[westwall]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

Mexico is far poorer than the US so your "model" fails in every respect.

 

[Nosmo King]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

There should be no infringement on 2nd amendment rights. Fully automatic assault rifles and submachine guns
must be made available to all citizens to prevent tyrannical governments and to defend against foreign and domestics groups bent on destroying the American government. There must not be any outright bans.
We must be aware terrorist are already armed with fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
Americans must also be equally armed to deal with that situation.

Okay, Rambo. Let's imagine your rebellion. The 4th armored division is about to sack your house. Is your AK 47 doing you any good? And is that good more beneficial than keeping that AK 47 out of the hands of the next manic who wanders into an elementary school?

 

[westwall]

I would love to see a national check system that did a background check on anyone who you wanted to do a check on. No gun registration at all, just a background check that everyone could access for no cost. You're having a garage sale and you're selling a gun, someone wants to buy it, you call the phone number, they do the background check. Done.

Anyone who really wants to do this can do it now, at a gun store.

If I'm at a garage sale I am not going to take the time to go to a gun store. Furthermore at the gun store there is a fee to do the background check. That is ridiculous. If you want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals you need access to the data base 24/7 and not when the gun stores happen to be open. Furthermore, adding a charge to the check reduces the number of people who will avail themselves of the service. A service that the People of the US have paid for many times over BTW.

I'm not disagreeing with the voluntary nature of the idea or that it is a bad Idea in general, I'm just pointing out that this capacity more or less already exists.

But it really doesn't. People hate paying taxes for anything and the background check fee is basically that. Further, as we both know, criminals DON'T buy guns at gun stores! They buy them from garage sales or flea markets etc. These are the locations where we need to have an ability to do an immediate background check on the person buying the gun.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

Mexico is far poorer than the US so your "model" fails in every respect.

And gun crime there is exceptionally high, indicating that bans, actual and virtual, do not prevent criminals from getting guns.
The idea therefore fails.

 

[westwall]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

By definition I am a member of a well regulated militia. So is anyone who is between the ages of 18 and 65. That is Constitutional as well as logical. Your argument is specious at best.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I would love to see a national check system that did a background check on anyone who you wanted to do a check on. No gun registration at all, just a background check that everyone could access for no cost. You're having a garage sale and you're selling a gun, someone wants to buy it, you call the phone number, they do the background check. Done.

Anyone who really wants to do this can do it now, at a gun store.

If I'm at a garage sale I am not going to take the time to go to a gun store. Furthermore at the gun store there is a fee to do the background check. That is ridiculous. If you want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals you need access to the data base 24/7 and not when the gun stores happen to be open. Furthermore, adding a charge to the check reduces the number of people who will avail themselves of the service. A service that the People of the US have paid for many times over BTW.

I'm not disagreeing with the voluntary nature of the idea or that it is a bad Idea in general, I'm just pointing out that this capacity more or less already exists.

But it really doesn't. People hate paying taxes for anything and the background check fee is basically that. Further, as we both know, criminals DON'T buy guns at gun stores! They buy them from garage sales or flea markets etc. These are thelocations where we need to have an ability to do an immediate background check on the person buying the gun.

I have no real issue with a voluntary system; of course.

 

[westwall]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

There should be no infringement on 2nd amendment rights. Fully automatic assault rifles and submachine guns
must be made available to all citizens to prevent tyrannical governments and to defend against foreign and domestics groups bent on destroying the American government. There must not be any outright bans.
We must be aware terrorist are already armed with fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
Americans must also be equally armed to deal with that situation.

Okay, Rambo. Let's imagine your rebellion. The 4th armored division is about to sack your house. Is your AK 47 doing you any good? And is that good more beneficial than keeping that AK 47 out of the hands of the next manic who wanders into an elementary school?

Yes, it will. You seem to ignore the Rumanian experience where the revolution was begun with .22 long rifle target pistols. Had they had access to better weapons the death toll for the revolutionaries would have been much less.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

By definition I am a member of a well regulated militia. So is anyone who is between the ages of 18 and 65. That is Constitutional as well as logical. Your argument is specious at best.

Its also an irrelevant point, as The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home

 

[westwall]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

Mexico is far poorer than the US so your "model" fails in every respect.

And gun crime there is exceptionally high, indicating that bans, actual and virtual, do not prevent criminals from getting guns.
The idea therefore fails.

That's what I said, you are responding to the wrong post.

 

[westwall]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

Wrong. The Constitution guarantees us the same weaponry as the military so that when our government becomes illegitimate we have the means to remove it. That is the very purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Sporting purpose was secondary.

 

[Nosmo King]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

By definition I am a member of a well regulated militia. So is anyone who is between the ages of 18 and 65. That is Constitutional as well as logical. Your argument is specious at best.

Define the 'well regulated' part.

 

[Nosmo King]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

There should be no infringement on 2nd amendment rights. Fully automatic assault rifles and submachine guns
must be made available to all citizens to prevent tyrannical governments and to defend against foreign and domestics groups bent on destroying the American government. There must not be any outright bans.
We must be aware terrorist are already armed with fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
Americans must also be equally armed to deal with that situation.

Okay, Rambo. Let's imagine your rebellion. The 4th armored division is about to sack your house. Is your AK 47 doing you any good? And is that good more beneficial than keeping that AK 47 out of the hands of the next manic who wanders into an elementary school?

Yes, it will. You seem to ignore the Rumanian experience where the revolution was begun with .22 long rifle target pistols. Had they had access to better weapons the death toll for the revolutionaries would have been much less.

So we should accept carnage to placate your rebellion which will never happen.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

Mexico is far poorer than the US so your "model" fails in every respect.

And gun crime there is exceptionally high, indicating that bans, actual and virtual, do not prevent criminals from getting guns.
The idea therefore fails.

That's what I said, you are responding to the wrong post.

I see you were responding to an anti-gun loon that I have on ignore, so all I saw was your post.

 

[westwall]

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Banning these weapons will make them prohibitively expensive and therefore out of reach for street thugs and maniacs bent on killing the innocent.

There should be no infringement on 2nd amendment rights. Fully automatic assault rifles and submachine guns
must be made available to all citizens to prevent tyrannical governments and to defend against foreign and domestics groups bent on destroying the American government. There must not be any outright bans.
We must be aware terrorist are already armed with fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
Americans must also be equally armed to deal with that situation.

Okay, Rambo. Let's imagine your rebellion. The 4th armored division is about to sack your house. Is your AK 47 doing you any good? And is that good more beneficial than keeping that AK 47 out of the hands of the next manic who wanders into an elementary school?

Yes, it will. You seem to ignore the Rumanian experience where the revolution was begun with .22 long rifle target pistols. Had they had access to better weapons the death toll for the revolutionaries would have been much less.

So we should accept carnage to placate your rebellion which will never happen.

If you truly want to stop the carnage you should decriminalize drugs. Send violent illegal immigrants back home (they are responsible for 80% of the violent crime in the US) and when someone uses a gun to commit a crime they get sent to prison forever. That will do more to reduce violence than any stupid gun ban ever could.

Britain has some of the strictest gun laws in the world and they also have one of the highest violent crime rates in the world.

 

[ErikViking]

Ban all weapons with semi or fully automatic firing systems. Such weapons belong in the hands of 'well regulated militias', not on the streets. Permit long barrel rifles and shotguns for sporting purposes. Permit revolvers. Ban handguns equipped with magazines holding more than nine rounds.

The death tolls from mass shootings is directly attributable to weapons which can fire greater than nine rounds. Such weaponry was designed to be used on a battlefield, not on the street. After a few years, these bans will result in criminals no longer able to obtain such weapons.

Crack down on the manufacturers. Keep them from making commercially available weapons of war. Incentivize them by giving them tax credits for units of sporting weapons produced and fine them heavily for producing weapons of warfare for commercial sale.

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

By definition I am a member of a well regulated militia. So is anyone who is between the ages of 18 and 65. That is Constitutional as well as logical. Your argument is specious at best.

Its also an irrelevant point, as The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home

Now, that poses a problem for my argument. I'll excuse myself by not knowing the 2nd amendment in detail.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Bans have been shown to not work. Machineguns are illegal in Mexico yet they are everywhere. Bans only affect the law abiding as has been shown over and over and over.

Bans on firearms commonly used for any of the traditionally lawful uses of a firearm (that is, virtually all of them) infringe on the rights of the law abiding and violate the 2nd amendment.

Such weapons belong in 'well regulated militias', not on the streets of America. Law abiding citizens can still hold as many sporting weapons as they please. But weapons designed exclusively for slaughtering as many humans as possible are anathema to the purposes of the constitution. The constitution is not a suicide pact. It was written when weapons wear muzzle loaded, not from automatic firing systems and high capacity magazines..

By definition I am a member of a well regulated militia. So is anyone who is between the ages of 18 and 65. That is Constitutional as well as logical. Your argument is specious at best.

Its also an irrelevant point, as The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home

Now, that poses a problem for my argument. I'll excuse myself by not knowing the 2nd amendment in detail.

No worries. Thank you for your input.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Okay, Rambo. Let's imagine your rebellion. The 4th armored division is about to sack your house.

In this time, the 4th Armored Division may well join the rebellion.