Holy war comes to Germany

[Saigon]

As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?

Yes.

In CAR, Sri Lanka and Burma, the violence is instigated BY Christians and Buddhists AGAINST Muslims - not the other way around.

 

[Shaam]

Shaam -

I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible.

To my mind there is a natural evolutionary process in all of our socities that as standards of education improve and standards of living rise, so peoples' lifestyles evolve. They may maintain religious and cultural traditions, but they do so within a society in which work and schools and sports and entertainment play a stronger role than they did in 1925.

I can think of plenty of Christian countries where terror ruled within my lifetime - Ireland, Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Spain and Greece to name a few. In how many of those countries do we see regular acts of terrorism today?

The main factors for that change is improving standards of living and education.

We now see the same development in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, to name a few. I am completely confidant that we will see people maintain Islamic traditions (and I hope they do) but in a much more tolerant and moderate form than was the case 20 years ago.

As for the number of Muslim-dominated countries, I see Wikipedia now says 49. I thought it was 40 last time I checked, but I could be wrong. There are several in Africa that are difficult to call either way, such as Senegal or Ghana. 57 sounds high to me.

I stand by my point that terrorism is only widespread in a half-dozen Muslim countries, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan of course, and I might also include Somalia, Pakistan and Libya. One could make a case for Chechenya, but that is fairly quiet these days.

Aside from Ireland- which also would probably qualify as a weak example- none of those countries suffered tyrannical rule explicitly because of Christian teachings or collectives acting out on behalf of Christian interests. Communism and Fascism are altogether different animals.

In order for Muslims to reconcile with a peaceable future with the rest of humanity, they need to either cease from practicing the religion or remove any and all teachings in the Qu'ran/Ahadith which exhort its followers to commit acts of violence..... and to do so would constitute "hypocrisy" (munafiq) and those Muslims pursuing such a policy so would be killed according to blasphemy laws under Shariah.

 

[Shaam]

As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?

Yes.

In CAR, Sri Lanka and Burma, the violence is instigated BY Christians AGAINST Muslims - not the other way around.

Err, what? The violence against Muslims in Sri Lanka and Burma is conducted by Buddhist groups, not Christian.

I grant you Sri Lanka as being an example of Buddhists drawing first blood against Muslims- Sinhalese Buddhist ultranationalism would probably have most of this forum's armchair critics on Israeli policies shutting up- but in Burma it is not the case. The Rohingya Muslims started the mass eurption of the conflict after encroaching upon and expropriating Rakhine Buddhist lands. Hell, the violence over the past couple years is due to Muslim mobs raping a Buddhist girl.

 

[Saigon]

Shaam .-

In what way did Spain under Franco NOT suffer tyranny?!

And I'd ask the same question about Pinochet, Cristiani and the Argentine Generals....not to mention the Greek Civil War, for gods sake!

ALL of those were Christians, quoted the bible and often attritbuted their actions to Christ. What more do we need?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Rikurzhen -

Russia is not free. Tunisia is.

Not difficult stuff, this.

Define your terms. What constitutes freedom? There is a lot of sexual debauchery in Russia, they're free to be libertines there. Does Tunisia have the same freedom for sluts that Russia has?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Shaam -

I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible.

Neither book in an instruction manual on how to construct and operate a society, they're focused on spirituality. Islam shares the category of religion with Christianity and Judaism but it is so much more, it is a system of laws and a system of governance. It's all encompassing, not tolerating any competing power centers in a society. One must judge by appropriate standards and you're not doing that.

To my mind there is a natural evolutionary process in all of our socities that as standards of education improve and standards of living rise, so peoples' lifestyles evolve. They may maintain religious and cultural traditions, but they do so within a society in which work and schools and sports and entertainment play a stronger role than they did in 1925.

The hubris of liberals. All the world will become liberal as the primitive societies evolve. What you propose is built on a foundation of fallacious thinking. All paths do not lead to liberalism. Islam has been in contact with the West long before the Enlightenment took form. There was cultural contact through that entire time. The West long ago outpaced the lands of Islam and yet there has been no movement to embrace Enlightenment values nor to foster an Islamic Enlightenment. Clearly the evidence shows that they are following a different path than the Christian-West.

I can think of plenty of Christian countries where terror ruled within my lifetime - Ireland, Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Spain and Greece to name a few. In how many of those countries do we see regular acts of terrorism today?

I can think of plenty of people who have been murdered yet when the murder victim happens to be JFK, RFK, Lincoln, etc then we're not talking simply murder, we're talking assassination and politics. You pointing to societies which suffered from terror doesn't mean you've made an equation to societies suffering terror due to efforts to implement Islam as it was designed to be implemented. The societies you've referenced didn't have revolutionaries or leaders thumbing through the Bible looking for instructions on how best to implement a Biblical vision of a best society.

We now see the same development in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, to name a few. I am completely confidant that we will see people maintain Islamic traditions (and I hope they do) but in a much more tolerant and moderate form than was the case 20 years ago.

And yet trends seem to be moving in the other direction. Turkey is becoming more Islamist in government, overturning the long entrenched Kemalism. Indonesia is implementing shariah in some provinces:


Young and in love in Indonesia? Beware, in Banda Aceh the sharia police are watching

On the pier by the port, several couples brave the law by sitting closely together, sometimes holding hands. Luckily for them, the sharia police don't seem to be coming this evening. Islamic sharia law was adopted in 2001, a “gift” from Jakarta to quell separatist ambitions in this very religious part of Indonesia. A series of bylaws passed since impose Islamic dress code and forbid gambling, alcohol consumption and “seclusion” between unmarried couples. . . .

In the Eastern Aceh town of Langsa, the case of a 25-year-old widow caught last week with a married man by eight men, who raped her as a punishment, has outraged human right activists, especially after local authorities said she will still be caned for adultery. . . .

In 2009, the local parliament added stoning to death as a punishment for adultery in a draft Islamic criminal code, but the then governor of the province rejected it. . . .

The Islamic criminal code adopted last February allows the sharia police to set up detention centres for suspected sharia offenders, and hold them for up to 20 days while their case is being investigated. Activists also say that sharia police raids on hotels and cafes, led by Banda Aceh's acting mayor - a woman - have intensified. Mazuki Ali says patrols do routine checks. “Patrols come at night, they check the hotel registry and if they suspect unmarried couples might be staying there, they check their rooms and IDs,” he says. If couples prove to be unmarried, they're taken to the police station.

Malaysia:

The Malaysian Constitution lists Islam as the religion of Malaysia.

I stand by my point that terrorism is only widespread in a half-dozen Muslim countries, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan of course, and I might also include Somalia, Pakistan and Libya. One could make a case for Chechenya, but that is fairly quiet these days.

 

[Shaam]

Shaam .-

In what way did Spain under Franco NOT suffer tyranny?!

And I'd ask the same question about Pinochet, Cristiani and the Argentine Generals....not to mention the Greek Civil War, for gods sake!

ALL of those were Christians, quoted the bible and often attritbuted their actions to Christ. What more do we need?

Once again, just because they upheld a Christian identity doesn't mean they were acting in the name of Christ. I have read extensively about those Latin American dictators, and they never attributed doing God's will as their primary motivation.

As I mentioned earlier- Communism and Fascism are different, and cannot be retailed to one's religious disposition simply because what they're doing is morally unscupulous. In fact, this sort of discourse came about after the WOT and the surge of Islamic fundamentalism worldwide, as a means for many disingenous leftist academics to somehow rationalize the spate of violence and horrors committed in the name of Islam.

 

[Saigon]

Shaam -

But they DID attribute God as a major motivation, of course they did.

I don't have time right now, but I'd be happy to provide quotes from all of the leaders mentioned which refer to God and Christianity to explain their motivation.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Shaam -

But they DID attribute God as a major motivation, of course they did.

I don't have time right now, but I'd be happy to provide quotes from all of the leaders mentioned which refer to God and Christianity to explain their motivation.

Do you not understand the difference between a Holy War which unites an army focused on a mission of religious warfare and people making claims to please God, such as a nurse surviving Ebola claiming that it was God's will that she survived.

You're crossing into the ridiculous now, no historian classes Pinochet or the Argentinian Junta as warriors in Christ's Army who were fighting a religious war. If you have a quote of Pinochet claiming that God was with him during a particular battle, that kind of statement is no different than a woman who wins a lottery claiming it was God's intention for her to win.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

You keep addressing argunents that I am not making.

My point here is that Christianity can be perverted to mean what political leaders and terrorists wish it to mean, just as Islam can. I am not claiming that Pinochet was a jihadist.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Rik -

You keep addressing argunents that I am not making.

My point here is that Christianity can be perverted to mean what political leaders and terrorists wish it to mean, just as Islam can. I am not claiming that Pinochet was a jihadist.

When a General tells his troops "God was with us in this battle" or "God will be with you in this battle" he's making a statement of the form "I survived being attacked by a bear because God was with me."

You're the one who is conflating mention of God with fighting a Holy War. Islamists are fight for Allah, as Allah instructed, in order to create a society based on Islamic principles.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

I think the point you are trying to make is that it is ok for a Christian leader to claim god leads him to kill innocent people, but not ok for a Muslim öeader to do the same thing.

I suspect we are only a few posts away from hearing that no acts of terrorism were committed during the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

To address your earlier point, I am (again) not claiming what you thi I am claiming. I am not saying all evolving societies become liberal. I have no idea where you get that from.

I am saying that all evolving socities move away from terror and violence as standards of living and education improve. Is that now the definition of liberalism?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Rik -

I think the point you are trying to make is that it is ok for a Christian leader to claim god leads him to kill innocent people, but not ok for a Muslim öeader to do the same thing.

I suspect we are only a few posts away from hearing that no acts of terrorism were committed during the Spanish Civil War.

There's a difference between "Men, soldiers for God, we are about to embark on a great battle in order to bring about God's Kingdom here on Earth. You are fighting for God, you are following his command to create this new society" and "Men, let us pray that God aids us in this battle and protects us." The former goes to battle FOR God, the latter asks God for protection. The former seeks to implement God's plan, the latter doesn't claim to represent God at all.