Historical Jesus: The unchanging reality of the New Testament record.

[AudeSapere]

It might interest you to know the Islamic standard teaching on
the new testament ----here it is ----right from the horse's mouth (al azhar) ---
"it's a pack of lies created by perverse liars ----ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM"

The Muslim author I cited is quoting from the four gospels and showing the contradictions in his compilation of quotes. Now, unless the quotes that were cited from the gospels themselves can be shown as misquotes by this Muslim author, then one could call what the author wrote a "pack of lies". But, to say that just because the author is Muslim this automatically discredits what was written about the NT are lies is not right. It should be examined on a case by case basis.

I am a skeptical non-believer of all three of the Abrahamic religions' claims btw. I can show the origins of Islam to be pagan and that the origins of Judaism were borrowed from Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian mythologies.

 

[Foxfyre]

It might interest you to know the Islamic standard teaching on
the new testament ----here it is ----right from the horse's mouth (al azhar) ---
"it's a pack of lies created by perverse liars ----ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM"

The Muslim author I cited is quoting from the four gospels and showing the contradictions in his compilation of quotes. Now, unless the quotes that were cited from the gospels themselves can be shown as misquotes by this Muslim author, then one could call what the author wrote a "pack of lies". But, to say that just because the author is Muslim this automatically discredits what was written about the NT are lies is not right. It should be examined on a case by case basis.

I am a skeptical non-believer of all three of the Abrahamic religions' claims btw. I can show the origins of Islam to be pagan and that the origins of Judaism were borrowed from Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian mythologies.

These days, I think it does not help one's argument to plagarize a "I hate Christians" site, most especially one that is promoting the Islamic religion, given the tensions around the world and the Islamic slaughter of Christians that has been in the news lately. Had you presented your material openly as an Islamic perspective and provided your source, it could have added to the discussion. The way you did it I think only made it look dishonest whether or not that was your intent.

I do think a site that is so obviously anti-Christian and that is designed to discredit Christianity is not a reliable source for honest interpretation of scripture.

 

[irosie91]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---
it should be noted that by that time E

It might interest you to know the Islamic standard teaching on
the new testament ----here it is ----right from the horse's mouth (al azhar) ---
"it's a pack of lies created by perverse liars ----ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM"

The Muslim author I cited is quoting from the four gospels and showing the contradictions in his compilation of quotes. Now, unless the quotes that were cited from the gospels themselves can be shown as misquotes by this Muslim author, then one could call what the author wrote a "pack of lies". But, to say that just because the author is Muslim this automatically discredits what was written about the NT are lies is not right. It should be examined on a case by case basis.

I am a skeptical non-believer of all three of the Abrahamic religions' claims btw. I can show the origins of Islam to be pagan and that the origins of Judaism were borrowed from Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian mythologies.

all well and good------still better to state the origin of any argument. It happens that I am familiar with that with which you claim familiarity AND much more
familiar with the Islamic POV than most non muslims who post here. Mythologies thruout the planet have commonalities------all human brains have
the same hard wiring

 

[Iceweasel]

Yes, and a lot of evidence for it is in the New Testament itself, which makes it obvious that most of the theology and historical references to contemporary Jewish events and Jewish culture is indeed from the early 1st Century, as no other time frame fits, so circa B.C. 14-A.D. 40 is a pretty accurate estimate. See Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, by Joachim Jeremias, for an excellent book, using Jewish sources, for a detailed, heavily foot-noted study of the time and place. When I get some time I'll cite some from it, re the rise of scribes, the oral esoteric traditions, etc., and the apocalyptic literature and why Jesus was so radical a Rabbi.

As for the Hebrew versus Aramaic claims, Hebrew was a 'sacred language', and not widely known outside the priesthood itself, and not known by most Jews, and as for Aramaic, it also was not widespread through the Roman Empire, while Greek was the language of scholars Empire wide, so it was the natural language to use for such a movement, not Aramaic, and the use of Greek itself, along with the language of the Gospels and Epistles, is also evidence those who wrote it were not just a bunch of crazy cranks yanking chains; they were very knowledgeable scholars and intellectuals with a detailed knowledge of both the Torah and the Talmuds and Mishnahs. More on that later, got to go make some breakfast ... I'm an atheist myself, so I'll leave all the supernatural arguments to those interested in them, but it's fairly certain an actual Jesus existed, imo, and Christianity wasn't just some dream fantasy pulled out of some loon's ass; it just wouldn't have been so abruptly popular so quickly if it were a mere cult. It would have taken a much longer time to have become one if it were merely made up, and its texts wouldn't have been so detailed and complex; cranks wouldn't have bothered.

Josephus documents daily life for the Hebrews during the formation of the NT. There's probably no better source. Greek wasn't just for scholars, it was the language of the common man as well, Koine Greek, more informal. The NT books and letters weren't written by scholars for scholars. And the story can't prove the existence of Jesus, it's a matter of faith.

Christianity wasn't just dreamed up but a Hellenization of the Old Testament. Many errors came from the Greek translation for those Jews, the Septuagint.

Interesting perspective, but I don't see Christianity or the New Testatment as a "Hellenization" of the Old Testament. I think most Christians see Christianity as a continuation of the story of the people of God that began in the Old Testament.

I do believe that it was Hellenized Jews who were more open to new concepts who responded positively to Jesus. Maybe Jesus chose that time to live on Earth because for the first time ever the time was right for people to welcome Him? (That question is on my list to ask when I get to meet Him face to face.)

But given the hostile, even violent, response of the orthodox Jews to Jesus and later to the Christians who chose to continue to follow him after Jesus's death, as well as Roman hostility to the Christian 'sect', it is hard to imagine that there was any benefit to anybody to 'dream up Christianity'.

The fact is that persecution of a faith isn't evidence of anything but a faithful following. People today die for their faith, Muslims and Christians alike. Back in the day the gnostics were all but wiped out. Once the catholic church turned Catholic and had the state power pretty much any other variation was costly. I realize that doesn't fit the martyr narrative but it's true.

If you look objectively (which is damn hard to do as a believer, I know first hand) you will see that Greek thought influenced their culture the way it always has with mankind living alongside different cultures. It's normal, it's history.

Do you see anything familiar with the writings of Philo of Alexandria (20BC-40AD, which predate the NT)?

Philo of Alexandria
4. Intermediate Potencies; the Logos.
Between God the Infinite and the finite, imperfect universe there is a wide gap which is, however, removed by being filled with divine potencies (dynameis), which are peculiar mediating beings or concepts, represented on the one hand as active powers, self-revelations, or attributes of God; on the other, as personal beings of a spiritual kind. Incomprehensible in number they submit to classification; namely, into the well-doing and the primitive powers. At the head of the former is the agathotes through whom God made the universe and at the head of the other is the arche, through whom be rules it. But higher than these two at the summit of the series of all mediate beings, constituting their principle of unity, appears the divine Logos.

He is their father and leader, the first-born. Are the others angels, he is the archangel. He stands in immanent relation with God and proceeds from him, whereas the others proceed from the Logos. He is sometimes called second God or image of God; his administrator, tool, and mediator. As mediator, through him the world was made. In him subsisted at the beginning of creation heaven and earth; i.e., the body of ideals. He is the seat of ideals which by partition or separation he projects from himself. Through him God imprints the intermediate potencies, which have their seat in the Logos, upon matter; hence his is called "seal of God." As the bond of unity, God holds together, supports, and directs all through him. He is also represented as the high-priest and advocate for men with God. The synonym "word" (hrema; Gen. i. 3; Ps. xxxiii. 6; Deut. viii. 3) used sometimes by Philo indicates that the Logos was to him equivalent to the Biblical term of the Old Teatament instrument of creation and governance of the world.


Philo of Alexandria Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew also called Judaeus Philo, is a figure that spans two cultures, the Greek and the Hebrew. When Hebrew mythical thought met Greek philosophical thought in the first century B.C.E. it was only natural that someone would try to develop speculative and philosophical justification for Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. Thus Philo produced a synthesis of both traditions developing concepts for future Hellenistic interpretation of messianic Hebrew thought, especially by Clement of Alexandria, Christian Apologists like Athenagoras, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and by Origen. He may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John (C. H. Dodd) and theEpistle to the Hebrews(R. Williamson and H. W. Attridge). In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today.

a. Philo's Model of Creation
Though Philo's model of creation comes from Plato's Timaeus, the direct agent of creation is not God himself (described in Plato as Demiurge, Maker, Artificer), but the Logos. Philo believes that the Logos is "the man of God" (Conf. 41) or the shadow of God that was used as an instrument and a pattern of all creation (LA 3.96). The Logos converted unqualified, unshaped preexistent matter, which Philo describes as "destitute of arrangement, of quality, of animation, of distinctive character and full of disorder and confusion," (Op. 22) into four primordial elements:

For it is out of that essence that God created everything, without indeed touching it himself, for it was not lawful for the all-wise and all-blessed God to touch materials which were all misshapen and confused, but he created them by the agency of his incorporeal powers, of which the proper name is Ideas, which he so exerted that every genus received its proper form (LA 1.329).

Philo contends that God thinks simultaneously with his acting or creating. "For God while he spake the word, did at the same moment create; nor did he allow anything to come between the Logos and the deed; and if one may advance a doctrine which is pretty nearly true, His Logos is his deed" (Sacr. 65; Mos.1.283). Thus any description of creation in temporal terms, e.g., by Moses, is not to be taken literally, but rather is an accommodation to the biblical language (Op. 19; Mut. 27; LA 2.9-13):


The First Bible Teachers Christian History Timeline - Christian History Biography - ChristianityTodayLibrary.com
The Alexandrian Tradition
Seeking the deep meanings
Ca. 20 B.C. - A.D. 50 Lifetime of Philo of Alexandria, the Jewish thinker and exegete who pioneered the allegorical method of interpretation to link the Hebrew Scriptures to Greek philosophy. His goal: an effective apologetic for Judaism in the Hellenistic world, with a success not lost on Clement and Origen of Alexandria. Those two Christian teachers picked up the method for the church and passed it on to Ambrose and others.

 

[Iceweasel]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

 

[irosie91]

from foxfyre
But given the hostile, even violent, response of the orthodox Jews to Jesus and later to the Christians who chose to continue to follow him after Jesus's death, as well as Roman hostility to the Christian 'sect', it is hard to imagine that there was any benefit to anybody to 'dream up Christianity'.

what "violent response of the orthodox jews to Jesus and to those who
followed him after Jesus's death"? what were the 'orthodox jews' back
then? (as compared to today----if you care to be precise)

 

[irosie91]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

you got a source for that essay?? WIKKI ? hint----widely used amongst
Hellenistic jews? for what purpose?

 

[irosie91]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

you got a source for that essay?? WIKKI ? hint----widely used amongst
Hellenistic jews? for what purpose?

never mind----I traced it back----quoting a Christian missionary source for the
origin of the Septuaginta is not entirely smart. The motivation of the translation
was not------so that KOINE speaking jews could read it. The OT was not translated even into Aramaic (a few parts are already in Aramaic} during the time
that just about all jews spoke Aramaic.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

 

[irosie91]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

what does your answer have to do with the misleading statement you
posted ----gleaned from a Christian missionary site----regarding the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was written?. Your site claimed that the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was commissioned (by the king of Egypt---who, himself
was quite an Hellenized guy<<<did you know that?) was so that the jews of
Alexandria would have something to read. In fact your citation is not at all
correct-----it was commissioned so that non jews would have something
to read-------that's how the Egyptian king----properly scholarly via his Hellenistic
influenced background-----wanted it. When jews translate things for other
jews-----they don't wait for an Egyptian king to come up with the idea.. An
interesting factoid that would interest you if you are curious-----is that there are and have been times and places in which ----when the OT is read publically----some guy on the side does a simultaneous rendition in Aramaic----(so everyone will understand) I doubt that the septuaginta was ever so used-----even in
Alexandria. I may be wrong----but it's not happening now. More for you----
even today there are places in which that simultaneous Aramaic thing is still done
(so that everyone will understand---<<quite a joke now---but still being done)

anyone out there ever been in a synagogue with a simultaneous GREEK TARGUM??

 

[AudeSapere]

I do think a site that is so obviously anti-Christian and that is designed to discredit Christianity is not a reliable source for honest interpretation of scripture.

I get the feeling that any website that would show the contradictions, inconsistencies and anachronistic history of the NT would be labeled "anti-Christian" and summarily dismissed by you.

Please explain what your "interpretation" of the following is...
1. Matthew 28:1 states two women (Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary) came to the tomb; Mark 16:1 states it was three women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome); Luke 24:10 agrees it was three women but gives a different list of three than Mark (Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James); John 20:1 states it was only Mary Magdalene.

2. Mark 16:2 states "the sun had risen" at the time of this visit, while John 20:1 states "it was still dark."

3. Matthew 28:2 says "an angel" "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it"; Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone); Luke 24:4 says they saw "two men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing"; in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra_res.htm

What is there to interpret here?

 

[irosie91]

Sapere
"I get the feeling that any website that would show the contradictions, inconsistencies and anachronistic history of the NT would be labeled "anti-Christian" and summarily dismissed by you."

do not underestimate your fellow posters----just cite the site and people can check

 

[Foxfyre]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

what does your answer have to do with the misleading statement you
posted ----gleaned from a Christian missionary site----regarding the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was written?. Your site claimed that the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was commissioned (by the king of Egypt---who, himself
was quite an Hellenized guy<<<did you know that?) was so that the jews of
Alexandria would have something to read. In fact your citation is not at all
correct-----it was commissioned so that non jews would have something
to read-------that's how the Egyptian king----properly scholarly via his Hellenistic
influenced background-----wanted it. When jews translate things for other
jews-----they don't wait for an Egyptian king to come up with the idea.. An
interesting factoid that would interest you if you are curious-----is that there are and have been times and places in which ----when the OT is read publically----some guy on the side does a simultaneous rendition in Aramaic----(so everyone will understand) I doubt that the septuaginta was ever so used-----even in
Alexandria. I may be wrong----but it's not happening now. More for you----
even today there are places in which that simultaneous Aramaic thing is still done
(so that everyone will understand---<<quite a joke now---but still being done)

anyone out there ever been in a synagogue with a simultaneous GREEK TARGUM??

??? What misleading statement?

 

[Foxfyre]

I do think a site that is so obviously anti-Christian and that is designed to discredit Christianity is not a reliable source for honest interpretation of scripture.

I get the feeling that any website that would show the contradictions, inconsistencies and anachronistic history of the NT would be labeled "anti-Christian" and summarily dismissed by you.

Please explain what your "interpretation" of the following is...
1. Matthew 28:1 states two women (Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary) came to the tomb; Mark 16:1 states it was three women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome); Luke 24:10 agrees it was three women but gives a different list of three than Mark (Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James); John 20:1 states it was only Mary Magdalene.

2. Mark 16:2 states "the sun had risen" at the time of this visit, while John 20:1 states "it was still dark."

3. Matthew 28:2 says "an angel" "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it"; Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone); Luke 24:4 says they saw "two men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing"; in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra_res.htm

What is there to interpret here?

Dear, I write curriculum and TEACH the development of Christian thought along with all the contradictions and inconsistencies found in both the Old and New Testaments. I certainly don't pretend they aren't there.

But yes. I will hold suspect any site that was created specifically for the purpose of exalting Islam and discrediting Christianity as being an authority on Christianity. You can count on that.

 

[irosie91]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

what does your answer have to do with the misleading statement you
posted ----gleaned from a Christian missionary site----regarding the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was written?. Your site claimed that the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was commissioned (by the king of Egypt---who, himself
was quite an Hellenized guy<<<did you know that?) was so that the jews of
Alexandria would have something to read. In fact your citation is not at all
correct-----it was commissioned so that non jews would have something
to read-------that's how the Egyptian king----properly scholarly via his Hellenistic
influenced background-----wanted it. When jews translate things for other
jews-----they don't wait for an Egyptian king to come up with the idea.. An
interesting factoid that would interest you if you are curious-----is that there are and have been times and places in which ----when the OT is read publically----some guy on the side does a simultaneous rendition in Aramaic----(so everyone will understand) I doubt that the septuaginta was ever so used-----even in
Alexandria. I may be wrong----but it's not happening now. More for you----
even today there are places in which that simultaneous Aramaic thing is still done
(so that everyone will understand---<<quite a joke now---but still being done)

anyone out there ever been in a synagogue with a simultaneous GREEK TARGUM??

??? What misleading statement?

speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

what does your answer have to do with the misleading statement you
posted ----gleaned from a Christian missionary site----regarding the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was written?. Your site claimed that the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was commissioned (by the king of Egypt---who, himself
was quite an Hellenized guy<<<did you know that?) was so that the jews of
Alexandria would have something to read. In fact your citation is not at all
correct-----it was commissioned so that non jews would have something
to read-------that's how the Egyptian king----properly scholarly via his Hellenistic
influenced background-----wanted it. When jews translate things for other
jews-----they don't wait for an Egyptian king to come up with the idea.. An
interesting factoid that would interest you if you are curious-----is that there are and have been times and places in which ----when the OT is read publically----some guy on the side does a simultaneous rendition in Aramaic----(so everyone will understand) I doubt that the septuaginta was ever so used-----even in
Alexandria. I may be wrong----but it's not happening now. More for you----
even today there are places in which that simultaneous Aramaic thing is still done
(so that everyone will understand---<<quite a joke now---but still being done)

anyone out there ever been in a synagogue with a simultaneous GREEK TARGUM??

??? What misleading statement?

I stated which is the misleading statement----I am crushed that you do
not read my brilliant posts carefully----the misleading statement includes the
notion that the SEPTUAGINTA was written to accommodate jews of Alexandria
who had forgotten Hebrew. Not so----it was commissioned by the KING OF EGYPT------who even paid the 70 guys to do it

 

[Foxfyre]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek
speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Certainly all that encompasses a person's experience and culture colors his/her perception and understanding of what is happening around him. There have been great thinkers throughout history. The ancient ones of the Old Testament had profound thoughts and struggled to comprehend as is evident in all of the Old Testament writings. I think those err who try to put any concept related to the Scriptures or Judaism or Christianity into a box and say here: THIS is the way it is.

Consider Socrates who is credited with being the Father of Philosophy. He left no writings of any kind, so all we know of him and his thoughts are via writings of his students, the most famous of course being Plato. Diogenes, who inspired Stoicism that greatly influenced Hellenistic thought, left no writings of his own but inspired a great school of thought. Nor did Buddha or Pyrrho or even Alexander the Great himself without whom the Hellenistic 'revival' likely would never have happened. Nor did Cyrus of Persia who, enlightened himself, opened the door for new philosophies and schools of thought to develop paving the way for an Alexander the Great to gain a foothold.

All of these great men contributed to the whole of the times and cultures to follow, but what we know of them is through the eyes of those who followed them. And those who followed were not always of a single mind or unity of thought.

I think maybe Jesus wanted no writings of his own or even copies of the original manuscripts of scripture to divert the people's attention from the relationship with Jesus Himself and the teachings of the Holy Spirit available to all who will receive it. People being people, they would tend to worship and make 'gods' of the objects themselves given opportunity to do so.

what does your answer have to do with the misleading statement you
posted ----gleaned from a Christian missionary site----regarding the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was written?. Your site claimed that the reason
that the SEPTUAGINTA was commissioned (by the king of Egypt---who, himself
was quite an Hellenized guy<<<did you know that?) was so that the jews of
Alexandria would have something to read. In fact your citation is not at all
correct-----it was commissioned so that non jews would have something
to read-------that's how the Egyptian king----properly scholarly via his Hellenistic
influenced background-----wanted it. When jews translate things for other
jews-----they don't wait for an Egyptian king to come up with the idea.. An
interesting factoid that would interest you if you are curious-----is that there are and have been times and places in which ----when the OT is read publically----some guy on the side does a simultaneous rendition in Aramaic----(so everyone will understand) I doubt that the septuaginta was ever so used-----even in
Alexandria. I may be wrong----but it's not happening now. More for you----
even today there are places in which that simultaneous Aramaic thing is still done
(so that everyone will understand---<<quite a joke now---but still being done)

anyone out there ever been in a synagogue with a simultaneous GREEK TARGUM??

??? What misleading statement?

I stated which is the misleading statement----I am crushed that you do
not read my brilliant posts carefully----the misleading statement includes the
notion that the SEPTUAGINTA was written to accommodate jews of Alexandria
who had forgotten Hebrew. Not so----it was commissioned by the KING OF EGYPT------who even paid the 70 guys to do it

But where did I say that? I think you have me confused with somebody else.

 

[AudeSapere]

do not underestimate your fellow posters----just cite the site and people can check

Yes, but I was not responding to my fellow posters in general, I was replying and addressing specifically to Foxfyres' post.

 

[irosie91]

who ever said it----it was lifted from a Christian web-site-----don't get all bent
out of shape------it's no biggie-----just incorrect. The Septuaginta is kinda important---
sorta. to lots of people. It was used to create later stuff-----Did you know that the
word "synagogue" is greek? -----It is not used by Hebrew speakers at all. It may
have been invented by the writers of the Septuaginta-----I am not sure---but likely

 

[Iceweasel]

The Septuaginta was not written for the sake of greek speaking jews----
it was commissioned by the egyptian king for the great library in Alexandria---

Septuagint
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

you got a source for that essay?? WIKKI ? hint----widely used amongst
Hellenistic jews? for what purpose?

So they could read the OT. Did you read the article? It is sourced, click on the red text.

 

[Foxfyre]

who ever said it----it was lifted from a Christian web-site-----don't get all bent
out of shape------it's no biggie-----just incorrect. The Septuaginta is kinda important---
sorta. to lots of people. It was used to create later stuff-----Did you know that the
word "synagogue" is greek? -----It is not used by Hebrew speakers at all. It may
have been invented by the writers of the Septuaginta-----I am not sure---but likely

It is a big deal to me when something is attributed to me that I didn't say, most especially when it is something I would never say. So whether that is interpreted as 'bent out of shape' or not, I would like for the misrepresentation to be corrected. Thanks.