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HILLARY AND THE MARINES:
Some conservatives are skeptical about the strange episode, mentioned in my recent story about Hillary Clinton and Iraq, in which Hillary inquired about joining the US Marines in 1975. (This anecdote was first reported after Hillary disclosed it to a group of female veterans in 1994, but it seems to have largely been forgotten since.) Today NRO's Jim Geraghty is asking, "has anyone besides Hillary ever confirmed this story?" Not to my knowledge, although I personally find it harder than anti-Hillary conservatives to believe she would make such a thing out of whole cloth.
But others have offered a different sort of skepticism: not about whether Hillary really visited that recruiting office, but why. Some argue the only plausible explanation is that it was some kind of post-Vietnam feminist stunt--that Hillary wanted to see how a 27-year-old female assistant law professor would be treated by a recruiter. This seems more plausible than the notion of her simply inventing the story. But it's also not how Hillary first described the event to those veterans in '94--nor, as you can see in my story, did she take the chance to cast it this way when I asked her about it (though admittedly, doing so would make close to zero political sense for her). And to spin a "feminist stunt" as a sincere act of patriotism would be a wildly cynical act--even if that's how Hillary's detractors assume she always operates.
--Michael Crowley
Was this before or after she was a Rodeo Clown?
Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Updating the Debate on Hillary's Story of Trying to Join the Marines
Last week I noted that Michael Crowley's (very meaty, BTW) profile on Sen. Hillary Clinton's views on foreign policy and the use of military force repeated the anecdote of her trying to join the Marines in 1975 and the recruiter telling her to try the Army. I expressed some skepticism. Even if you put aside everything you think you know about her beliefs at the time, it just seems supremely odd that she would attempt to join the Marines shortly after she had moved to Arkansas to be with Bill, while teaching law school, while Bill was preparing to run for state attorney general (and was expected to win) and less than a year before her wedding. Heck, Maureen Dowd couldn't hide her skepticism in the Times article at the time.
Bringing you up to speed...
I didn't see it at the time, but Crowley said that there were no other sources for the story besides Hillary, but that:
Some argue the only plausible explanation is that it was some kind of post-Vietnam feminist stuntthat Hillary wanted to see how a 27-year-old female assistant law professor would be treated by a recruiter. This seems more plausible than the notion of her simply inventing the story.Jonah is a skeptic of Hillary's story as well, and it came up in his chat with Peter Beinart. Jonah also notes that the revised explanation is arguably worse - that instead of inventing a tale of going to a recruiter and being turned down, Hillary went to expose sexist attitudes, and now tells the tale as an example of her innate desire to serve her country, etc. JPod is characteristically blunt: "She's almost certainly lying."
Now Crowley points to a 1994 Washington Post article that discussed the tale. (By the way, I searched Lexis-Nexis with the terms "Hillary Clinton" "tried to join" and "Marines" before 2000 and that article didn't come up. Odd.) Two friends of Hillary say they have vague memories of her visiting the recruiter - although the second explanation seems a bit more plausible if this account is accurate:
But Ann Henry, a University of Arkansas business professor and Fayetteville friend of the First Lady, said she "vaguely" recalled the episode in the context of frequent discussions they used to have about women's access to supposedly open career paths. Frequently, the equal opportunity that was promised was not a reality and sometimes female faculty members went out to conduct "tests," Henry said.If Hillary visited the recruiter simply to see if corps was sufficiently "welcoming" of women, it does not reflect well on her to speak as she did at that luncheon back in 1994 (the following is from her remarks as played on the June 15, 1994 Rush Limbaugh program):
If Hillary Rodham had asked about the Marines as a way of testing whether the corps actually welcomed women, "it would have been consistent with what was going on with us at the time," Henry said.
"Is it possible she was testing?" Blair asked. "I don't remember if she was seriously exploring a career, or was moved by curiosity, or patriotism or feminism. I wish I had kept notes."
Mrs. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Gee, now it was probably 19 years ago1975I decided that I was very interested in having some experience in serving in some capacity in the military. So I walked into our local recruiting office, and I think it was just my bad luck that the person who happened to be there on duty could not have been older than 21, was in perfect physical shape.Actually, the gist of the story is how badly Mrs. Clinton was treated by that Marine...
So I sat down and I said, you know, I wanted to explore. I didn't know whether I thought active duty would be a good idea, reserveyou know, maybe National Guard, something along those lines. I was already a lawyer. I thought there were some roles I could perform, and I was going on and on, you know, trying to justify my existence. And this young man looked at me and he said, How old are you?' I said, Well... ...27.
Silence. He looked at me, and in those days that was before I learned how to wear contact lenses. I had these really thick glasses on. He said, How bad's your eyesight?' I said, It's pretty bad.' Said, How bad?' I said, This is embarrassing.' And he said, How bad?' So I told him. He said, That's pretty bad.' And he finally said to mehe said, You're too old. You can't see. And you're a woman.'
And then he went onand since this is the birthday of the Army, I will tell you what the rest that he said wasthis manyoung man was a Marine. He said, But maybe the dogs would take you.' I said, This is not a very encouraging conversation, so maybe I'll look for another way to serve my country.
By the way, I'm sure some people are asking, "So she either made up or misrepresented a story about trying to join the Marines. So what?"
Maybe this is just my pet peeve, but I can't stand it when politicians tell oh-so-perfect stories that illustrate their connection to whoever is listening to them speak at that moment. Almost all of them succumb to the temptation at one point or another most recently Barack Obama suggesting that events at Selma, Ala. in 1965 brought his parents together, when in fact he had been born a few years earlier. (What's really bonkers is that Obama has such an interesting and eventful life as is, and yet even he feels he has to tweak the details of his biography to fit the circumstances.) If it's true that Mitt Romney only hunted twice (last I heard, he indicated he had hunted more frequently) his claim of being a "lifelong hunter" seems rather ridiculous.
I think my all-time favorite example of this was in 1995, when President Clinton addressed a group of Iowa farmers and said "I am the only President who knew something about agriculture when I got there [the Oval Office]." Nevermind George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, let's think of Bill's most recent Democratic predecessor, Jimmy Carter, a.k.a., the Peanut Farmer.
In this case, back in 1994, Hillary Clinton was addressing a luncheon honoring women in the military and it wasn't enough to say, "nice job" to the honorees. No, she had to talk about her experience, and paint herself as a woman who could have worn her country's uniform, if she just had had a more open-minded recruiter.
All of these comments are variations of, "look at me, aren't I special, isn't it amazing that I have an experience that is just like the experiences of all of you before me." And politicians are willing to tell little white lies about their past in order to create that momentary feeling of connection. It's cheap and phony, and our body politic would be better off if politicians resisted the urge.
04/10 04:41 PM
why is it so outlandish to think that a lawyer might want a career as a JAG officer?
It is not like if she joined the marines that she would be expected to scramble out of some landing craft and through the surf to some hostile beach head.
Military lawyers make a nice living... they get to serve their country and practice law.
I don't find this at all outlandish.... I knew plenty of JAG officers - navy and marines - in my time in service and none of them were "combat arms" types or remarkably macho and brave...they were lawyers...like Hillary was a lawyer.
LOL!
methinks that if you familiarized yourself with Hillary Clinton and her opinions and actions towards military members she has come into contact with you would re-think your opinion that it is in anyway realistic that she would have considered joining the military.
I know several JAG officers, in fact I'm married to a Captain in the Air Force who is currently attending law school...and he is currently choking back laughter at the thought of Hillary Clinton joining the miliary for ANY reason.
methinks that if you familiarized yourself with Hillary Clinton and her opinions and actions towards military members she has come into contact with you would re-think your opinion that it is in anyway realistic that she would have considered joining the military.
I know several JAG officers, in fact I'm married to a Captain in the Air Force who is currently attending law school...and he is currently choking back laughter at the thought of Hillary Clinton joining the miliary for ANY reason.
I agree with you and your husband. While Hillary may or may not have been 'conservative' in high school, by her college years, the die was cast. By law school, entrenched.
and again... I am proof positive that lifelong liberals can serve happily in the military.
Whether she was conservative or liberal does not make her inquiries into career opportunities in military law any less reasonable.
Considering all that is known, from protests and writings, highly unlikely. But dream on.
well good for him.... his opinion is somehow more valid than mine?
I am, I would imagine, more familiar with Hillary than you.... and her opinions about the military are not at all disrespectful.
maineman wrote:
Don't be an obtuse, it doesn't suit you. I did not imply in any way that his opinion was more valid. You stated that you did not believe that Kathianne was familiar with many JAG officers...implying of course, that if she did, she would find that it was not unreasonable to believe that Hillary Clinton would have taken this path. I countered this implication by stating that I knew several JAGs very well, one future JAG intimately, and that even with these men and woman in mind - it is still HIGHLY unlikely that Hillary would have given serious consideration to joining the military.
This is a silly assertion. You assume that because I dislike her politics I would choose to remain uneducated about the woman who wants to be the first female President of this nation...and that you, presumably because you like her, know more? I expected better from you.
For the record I have read her autobiography, "Living History," as well as "It Takes a Village," and her husbands autobiography as well. I found all three to be a bit hokey and over the top...and downright boring in many places - but I read them all (I read "Monica's Story" too...I believe in looking at all sides of an issue that interests me). To get a counter balance I've read "Madame Hillary" and the Morris book that was written as a refutation of her autobiography, I'm totally blanking on the name right now and don't feel like walking downstairs to check my bookshelf...I found both of them very heavy handed. My concerns about Hillary and the military come from the stories I have read from the military members who worked closely with the Clintons, "Dereliction of Duty" was an interesting read from that standpoint.
If you know her personally and can offer me some personal stories to prove that you are right I would love to hear them. But unless you have those...I'd be willing to wager that you and I are on the same playing field...we've both read a lot about Hillary Clinton...and we're both wading through fact and fiction in an attempt to discern the truth. I'm more than willing to believe that Hillary doesn't loathe the military as much as some of what I have read claims she does...but I still find it quite unbelievable that she gave the military serious consideration.
and you can continue to demonize her to YOUR heart's content.
enjoy...
here's a newsflash: Hillary Clinton really does not give a shit if YOU think she is the anti-Christ or not...I'm sorry to break it to you.
Where did I say she was the anti-Christ? Seriously, chill.
hyperbole.... tell me you've never employed that particular literary device here...
you chill.
and the only added factor I bring to the equation is the fact that I am a lifelong ultra liberal who went to the Naval Academy and spent a career as a naval officer..... so I do not find it anywhere near as unbelievable as you that a liberal lawyer might have looked into the career opportunities available in JAG. She might have actually considered how she could make a real impact as a defense counsel...My own recently deceased father was an ultra liberal lawyer in December of 1941 and he entered the Army and served almost exclusively as a defense counsel getting soldiers off of bad raps.
) but most people will admit that Marines are a bit more...hard core...than the rest. It seems strange that Hillary would have looked into the most extreme branch if she just wanted to be a desk jockey who helped soliders out of tough binds.maineman wrote:
I don't find it at all unbelievable that their are liberals in the military, I am friends with several, in fact my husband's crew partner would have given you a run for your money I'd imagine on ultra-liberalism. Is it possible that Hillary considered it? Sure, anything is possible...but you have to admit that 1) It doesn't really sound like Hillary and 2) It does seem a tad convinient that it sounds like she only mentions it in certain, well-chosen venues.
*Addition from Gem's Husband: Additionally, Marine Corps JAG are first and foremost Marines - they are trained rifleman, trained as Marines, and go through Marine Boot Camp, not Officer Field Training as they would in Army, Navy, or Air Force. Thats not to say that Army, Navy, or Air Force isn't hard (after all, my husband is in the Air Force
