hey democrats ! are yall ready for 5 dollar a gallon gasoline ?

[WinterBorn]

Daniel, once again you disagree without disputing anything I posted. Sad.

Not at all. Demand and supply is what makes capitalism do what it does.

That is absolutely right. If there is a demand for your labor, you will be properly compensated. If you offer nothing of value, you will not.

Thanks for agreeing with me. UC is about compensating for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment to ensure more efficient market based arbitrage.

And yet, you insist on changing UC into welfare.

You keep missing the capital point. UC actually solves for economic phenomena under our form of Capitalism,unlike means tested welfare.

If the changes were made to UC that you want, there would be means tests added. If you want to have an income from tax dollars, you have to prove you need them.

Not in our at-will employment States. That is the Whole and Entire Point.

Yes, it does. If you have the money to live, why would you receive our tax dollars? Tax dollars are monies that have been forcibly taken from workers and consumers.

Employment is at the will of either party. We should have no homeless problem in our first world economy.

Yeah, you have tried this before. Most homelessness is due to drug or alcohol problems or mental health issues. Sending them a check (to what address?) when they have no way of cashing it is ridiculous!

UC for simply being unemployed means they can then afford rehab in a market friendly manner.

And you make that claim without addressing where the check is mailed, where the check is cashed, and how their money will be protected. And they will not go into rehab if they can continue to drink and do drugs on the tax payer's dime.

They will be able to afford market friendly solutions once they can obtain UC for simply being unemployed.

Again, where do we mail the check?
Where do they get it cashed?

And as for the security of their income, you want $14 an hour. At 40 hours a week, that is $560.00. It comes to a little over $29,000 per year. So we mail them a check every month for $2,426.67. And you expect them to keep this in their pockets? Living on the street?

They can qualify for welfare and get medical benefits that will pay for their rehab and housing.

They can hold them at the office or get direct deposit. Any simple market based solutions may do.

Direct deposit? At what bank? What bank will let you open an account without an address or an ID?

EDD could hold the check at their office. Some charities offer mailbox services.

Yes, and the same could be done with welfare. But until you deal with their mental health issues and addictions, giving them $2,400 a month is a death sentence.

You confuse simple poverty with conditions better addressed with means testing. Why would you rather use the more expensive option instead of a more cost effective option that is simpler and more cost effective?

Means testing is not as expensive as verifying prior employment. Means testing is just an applicant filling out a few forms. Those forms cost very little. Verification is only done on a small percentage.

Filling all those forms is expensive and time consuming. UC is more cost effective and generates a higher multiplier.

It is not expensive for the state. It is what you do if you want tax payer funds.

No, it does not generate a higher multiplier and it is NOT more cost effective.

Yes, means testing is much more expensive. The multiplier for means tested welfare is .08, the multiplier for UC has been measured at 2.

Yes, when it is structured as it currently is. But take away the employer's contribution, the time limits on drawing it, and the requirement to prove you are unemployed through no fault of your own, and you have welfare.

And no, the means testing is not more expensive. It costs nothing to have the applicant fill out forms.

It is truly amazing that you are saying the most cost effective way to "solve poverty" is to hand out tax money with no questions asked. Truly idiotic.

Not welfare. UC actually solves for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment and helps automatically stabilize our economy on an at-will basis.

Welfare is a safety net. If you want to have money you work. Your goal of having a middleclass income without lifting a finger is not going to happen.

 

[danielpalos]

Daniel, this entire conversation about sidestepping means testing and getting a check for nothing is off topic.

Get back to the topic.

That is all you. UC solves for simple poverty and employment is at the will of either party. It is about improving our economy through equal protection of the laws.

 

[WinterBorn]

No, I do not. If you have skills that are in demand, you are paid more. If you have nothing to offer, not even a willingness to work, you will not be compensated.

There can be no lawful requirement to work in an at-will employment State. States cannot arbitrarily change that.

True. And there can be no lawful requirement to provide UC for someone who does not qualify and is not seeking employment.

Equal application and protection of the laws can solve simple poverty on an at-will basis to promote and provide for the general welfare.

How so?

UC on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States.

But you are not asking for equality. In your version, employers have to continue to pay after you cease to provide your labor. That is not equality.

I am not claiming that. I am claiming the State has to fund UC not employers.

You want tax dollars to be paid to people who refuse to work. And that this be done without them having to show they need the money. You could have a million dollars in the bank, but not be working and you demand pay from tax payers?

Employment is at the will of either party. Why would someone with a million dollars in the bank not learn how to invest instead of applying for UC?

Why would someone object to showing a need before tax dollars were spent providing them an income?

That is what means tested welfare is for, not more market friendly UC.

There is nothing market friendly about forcing others to pay you and income and you refusing to show you need it.

This is not means tested welfare. UC solves simple poverty instead of having to waste money indefinitely on a fake war on poverty.

Oh, so having the applicant fill out a form is wasting money, but giving tax dollars to people who do not need it is not?

We have wasted enough time on derailing this topic.

The law is the law. Employment is at the will of either party.

I never denied it was. But the income is based on trading your labor for their money. You want the money without providing the labor. That is inequality.

UC can solve for simple poverty as that form of insurance. Why do you insist on wasting money on a program that has not solved poverty for over thirty years?

Because money is not the only problem where poverty is concerned. Giving a drug addict a paycheck does not solve their addiction.

And means testing is not why welfare has not solved simple poverty. It is simply why you cannot get a check for doing nothing.

Yes, under Capitalism a lack of capital is the only problem. Giving persons a paycheck means they should be able to get rehab assistance in a market friendly manner.

Means testing is supposed to be about helping those for whom solving for a simple poverty of Capital may not be enough.

No, it is not. Most homeless are not where they are strictly because of lack money. Many other factors come into play, with addiction and mental illness at the top of the list.

Only because they didn't have enough money to get into rehab under our form of Capitalism.

Couldn't afford it or didn't want it? You'll have to show a link to prove your claim.

And you are assuming that when you send out these $2,400.00 monthly checks, they very first thing the addicts will do is go into rehab. You obviously haven't spent time around addicts.

We should have no homeless problem in our first world economy.

Nice sentiment. But there are no facts to back that up. If people spend all their money on their addictions, they will be homeless. If someone has severe mental issues, they will not be stable enough to maintain a home.

 

[danielpalos]

Welfare is a safety net. If you want to have money you work. Your goal of having a middleclass income without lifting a finger is not going to happen.

Welfare is means tested and for those for whom merely solving for a poverty of capital may not be enough. And, no, you don't have to work in an at-will employment States. The South lost that war.

 

[WinterBorn]

Daniel, this entire conversation about sidestepping means testing and getting a check for nothing is off topic.

Get back to the topic.

That is all you. UC solves for simple poverty and employment is at the will of either party. It is about improving our economy through equal protection of the laws.

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

 

[danielpalos]

Nice sentiment. But there are no facts to back that up. If people spend all their money on their addictions, they will be homeless. If someone has severe mental issues, they will not be stable enough to maintain a home.

You have even less facts to back it up your position. You are alleging, Capitalism doesn't work.

 

[WinterBorn]

Welfare is a safety net. If you want to have money you work. Your goal of having a middleclass income without lifting a finger is not going to happen.

Welfare is means tested and for those for whom merely solving for a poverty of capital may not be enough. And, no, you don't have to work in an at-will employment States. The South lost that war.

I have asked this before, and you have always refused to answer.

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

 

[danielpalos]

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

UC should be about solving for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment. You have no solutions and right wingers still complain about taxes.

 

[WinterBorn]

Nice sentiment. But there are no facts to back that up. If people spend all their money on their addictions, they will be homeless. If someone has severe mental issues, they will not be stable enough to maintain a home.

You have even less facts to back it up your position. You are alleging, Capitalism doesn't work.

What I stated is factual. It is backed up by many studies on the causes of homelessness. You choose to ignore those studies because you want free tax payer money with no questions asked.

 

[WinterBorn]

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

UC should be about solving for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment. You have no solutions and right wingers still complain about taxes.

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

 

[danielpalos]

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Under Capitalism? It must be about the greed and wanting to be rich, not any form of requirement to work in an at-will employment State. Simply applying for UC is filling out forms.

 

[danielpalos]

What I stated is factual. It is backed up by many studies on the causes of homelessness. You choose to ignore those studies because you want free tax payer money with no questions asked.

A simple lack of money causes homelessness; other problems may develop because of that.

 

[WinterBorn]

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Under Capitalism? It must be about the greed and wanting to be rich, not any form of requirement to work in an at-will employment State. Simply applying for UC is filling out forms.

You didn't answer the question.

Why should you be supported by tax payers when you are able to work and support yourself?

 

[danielpalos]

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

UC should be about solving for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment. You have no solutions and right wingers still complain about taxes.

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Being moral enough to be legal to at-will employment law should be the only reason needed. Only illegals don't care about the law and only hypocrites blame the less fortunate.

 

[WinterBorn]

What I stated is factual. It is backed up by many studies on the causes of homelessness. You choose to ignore those studies because you want free tax payer money with no questions asked.

A simple lack of money causes homelessness; other problems may develop because of that.

Studies show different for the majority of homeless.

 

[danielpalos]

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Under Capitalism? It must be about the greed and wanting to be rich, not any form of requirement to work in an at-will employment State. Simply applying for UC is filling out forms.

You didn't answer the question.

Why should you be supported by tax payers when you are able to work and support yourself?

You are special pleading. UC recipients can also pay taxes while circulating capital for multiplier effect. It helps our economy. Don't work and apply for UC if you have a problem with it. See, a simple solution.

 

[WinterBorn]

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

UC should be about solving for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment. You have no solutions and right wingers still complain about taxes.

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Being moral enough to be legal to at-will employment law should be the only reason needed. Only illegals don't care about the law and only hypocrites blame the less fortunate.

Still not answering.

I'll make it simple for you. I have about 1/3 of my income taken by the gov't in taxes. Why should I work hard to provide you with a middleclass income, when you will do nothing to provide for yourself?

 

[danielpalos]

What I stated is factual. It is backed up by many studies on the causes of homelessness. You choose to ignore those studies because you want free tax payer money with no questions asked.

A simple lack of money causes homelessness; other problems may develop because of that.

Studies show different for the majority of homeless.

No, they don't.

 

[WinterBorn]

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Under Capitalism? It must be about the greed and wanting to be rich, not any form of requirement to work in an at-will employment State. Simply applying for UC is filling out forms.

You didn't answer the question.

Why should you be supported by tax payers when you are able to work and support yourself?

You are special pleading. UC recipients can also pay taxes while circulating capital for multiplier effect. It helps our economy. Don't work and apply for UC if you have a problem with it. See, a simple solution.

No, not special pleading. A very simple question. Why should some people work hard to support those who CHOOSE not to work?

 

[danielpalos]

UC has one purpose. And it will not be subverted for those who want income without working and without questions about their means. It is a fantasy.

UC should be about solving for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment. You have no solutions and right wingers still complain about taxes.

Why should people work, and have their taxes paid to you when you have no desire to work? And why shouldn't you answer a few questions to determine your need to have access to tax payer's hard earned income?

Being moral enough to be legal to at-will employment law should be the only reason needed. Only illegals don't care about the law and only hypocrites blame the less fortunate.

Still not answering.

I'll make it simple for you. I have about 1/3 of my income taken by the gov't in taxes. Why should I work hard to provide you with a middleclass income, when you will do nothing to provide for yourself?

Here is the Answer. Just quit and apply for UC. Nobody is making You work in any at-will employment State.

Wait for wages to go up.