Zone1 Here Are The Old Testament Passages Describing The Foretold Jewish Messiah

[TNHarley]

"The Kingdom of God is among you"

Their prophecies for the Messianic Age never happened. Didnt even come close.

 

[TNHarley]

I find that interesting.

Do you remember the poster Indeependent? He had some goofy guy from a black and white tv show as an avi? He was well versed in Hebrew and he used to complain all the time about the mistranslations.

 

[BackAgain]

Do you remember the poster Indeependent? He had some goofy guy from a black and white tv show as an avi? He was well versed in Hebrew and he used to complain all the time about the mistranslations.

I do recall him. Haven’t seen him in a long time. I usually liked his posts.

I have enough trouble with many words in my own language. I obviously don’t speak ancient Hebrew or Aramaic nor do I have much of a grasp on how those ancient cultures informed their understandings of the meanings of their own words.

But I’ve gotten to an age where I now seek to understand many things I used to gloss over: such as the claim I used to hear a lot in my younger days that “Jesus came in fulfillment of the scriptures.”

Accordingly, I see room for debate in whether any translation is accurate or whether the alleged “mistranslation” is actually inaccurate.

 

[Meriweather]

I have a long time friend who is Jewish. He once asked me if I knew the other name for the group called “Jews for Jesus.” I didn’t. He informed me: “Christians.”

He has a point.

And a good one. Jews for Jesus is not a good source of information for the Old Testament. Look for commentary by Jewish scholars or rabbis. And keep in mind the search engines always seem to bring Christian sources for Jewish information to the forefront. Keep digging.

 

[BackAgain]

And a good one. Jews for Jesus is not a good source of information for the Old Testament. Look for commentary by Jewish scholars or rabbis. And keep in mind the search engines always seem to bring Christian sources for Jewish information to the forefront. Keep digging.

In many cases, the roots of Christian families trace back to Jewish families.

I’m not sure why Jews for Jesus are all that different. And I don’t know why their scholarship on this topic is necessarily misguided just because they have “found” Jesus.

 

[Meriweather]

In many cases, the roots of Christian families trace back to Jewish families.

I’m not sure why Jews for Jesus are all that different. And I don’t know why their scholarship on this topic is necessarily misguided just because they have “found” Jesus.

CNN and Fox News make for a good analogy. Both reported on the COVID Virus and the Trump Presidency. Would you say each had their own clearly noticeable slant?

The same is true of Biblical studies. The Christian take away of the Old Testament is a quite different assessment from the assessment of Rabbi/Jewish scholars.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus SAID "I am meek and humble of heart" ? news to me.

No reason it should be familiar to those who are not of the Christian faith. Matthew 11:28-30 has always meant a lot to me. Jesus is saying, "Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy and my burden light."

 

[BackAgain]

CNN and Fox News make for a good analogy. Both reported on the COVID Virus and the Trump Presidency. Would you say each had their own clearly noticeable slant?

The same is true of Biblical studies. The Christian take away of the Old Testament is a quite different assessment from the assessment of Rabbi/Jewish scholars.

I wouldn’t expect Jewish scholars to seek to validate any tenets of the Christian faith.

Isn’t it possible that they are (perhaps unintentionally) misinterpreting their own ancient roots to (subconsciously) defend their own religious beliefs?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

yes---that's what Magda Goebbels said

That's what CHRIST said and they didn't understand. Still true today

 

[BreezeWood]

"The Kingdom of God is among you"

That's what CHRIST said and they didn't understand. Still true today

no, liberation theology, self determination is what jesus taught and said, all in the heavens are equal ... still true today.

 

[Meriweather]

I wouldn’t expect Jewish scholars to seek to validate any tenets of the Christian faith.

Isn’t it possible that they are (perhaps unintentionally) misinterpreting their own ancient roots to (subconsciously) defend their own religious beliefs?

Can you think of anyone today who is writing a modern history for people over a thousand years into the future? Are news and opinion anchors today speaking for the benefit of those in the future?

Let's take Isaiah for example. I believe Isaiah had both historical news and a thoughtful viewpoint for people of his own time. What did Isaiah, the original author, wish to convey to his original audience? I can pretty much guarantee that the birth of Jesus never entered his mind.

Jewish scholars--as a whole--tend to stick with the history, issues, and culture of that particular time period. Some Christian scholars have a habit of jumping ahead into the future and proclaiming what Isaiah "really meant" was an event that had not yet occurred. Think of it like this: Would you take an historical account, written immediately following the Civil War, and use it to proclaim that the Civil War account surely foretold that the Allies would win World War I?

Isaiah, in his own time (or shortly after the events unfolded) was speaking of what were current events to him--not future events hundreds of years into the future.

 

[BackAgain]

Can you think of anyone today who is writing a modern history for people over a thousand years into the future? Are news and opinion anchors today speaking for the benefit of those in the future?

Let's take Isaiah for example. I believe Isaiah had both historical news and a thoughtful viewpoint for people of his own time. What did Isaiah, the original author, wish to convey to his original audience? I can pretty much guarantee that the birth of Jesus never entered his mind.

Jewish scholars--as a whole--tend to stick with the history, issues, and culture of that particular time period. Some Christian scholars have a habit of jumping ahead into the future and proclaiming what Isaiah "really meant" was an event that had not yet occurred. Think of it like this: Would you take an historical account, written immediately following the Civil War, and use it to proclaim that the Civil War account surely foretold that the Allies would win World War I?

Isaiah, in his own time (or shortly after the events unfolded) was speaking of what were current events to him--not future events hundreds of years into the future.

I believe all writers think in terms of talking to the future and many — if not most —hope it will be a long future.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe all writers think in terms of talking to the future and many — if not most —hope it will be a long future.

Are they making predictions of what will happen over five hundred years from now?

 

[surada]

I believe all writers think in terms of talking to the future and many — if not most —hope it will be a long future.

Why don't you read Isaiah?

 

[BackAgain]

Are they making predictions of what will happen over five hundred years from now?

I have no idea. Maybe.

 

[BackAgain]

Why don't you read Isaiah?

I am not very religious. My belief is exactly as thin as believing in God. Period.

Much of what the Old Testament says has no inherent meaning to me — particularly since I lack the required context.

My interest isn’t to support my faith or to disprove anybody else’s belief. It’s more of just a curiosity itch that needs to get scratched.

 

[Meriweather]

I have no idea. Maybe.

I believe Jesus was right when he advised us not to be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself.

Each generations has its own issues, and it is enough for each generation to address its own troubles. It seems to me it is all we are capable of doing, anyway.

My interest isn’t to support my faith or to disprove anybody else’s belief. It’s more of just a curiosity itch that needs to get scratched.

Now we are talking. Like you, I had no wish to disprove anybody else's belief, but I had to know how Old Testament people perceived God as wrathful and always terribly unhappy with us about something--and sometimes, it seemed, about everything. Turns out Jews don't view God this way at all. Hebrew and Biblical cultures are vastly different from English and modern Western culture. Hebrew teaches to think in an entirely different way.

While Western culture seems to focus on God killed the babies! God killed the first born! God wanted someone to sacrifice a child! Hebrew presents an entirely different perspective. What can people learn from the Great Flood? After all the Hebrew children the Egyptians killed, why were only a small percentage of Egyptians taken? What does the story of Abraham and Isaac teach society about what pleases God--and what does not please Him?

The entire Bible provides a beautiful lesson in Critical Thinking. It is a great way to get past Binary Thinking where one must choose a side and cling to it. There is more than one way to think things through and each person come back even stronger in his/her own faith whether that be Jew or Christian. The Old Testament has given me expanded insight into the life of Jesus and who he was/is. It gives those of Jewish faith an expanded insight into why they choose to live their lives and their beliefs the way they do. It is a win-win for all. My opinion and experience.

 

[BackAgain]

I believe Jesus was right when he advised us not to be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself.

Each generations has its own issues, and it is enough for each generation to address its own troubles. It seems to me it is all we are capable of doing, anyway.


Now we are talking. Like you, I had no wish to disprove anybody else's belief, but I had to know how Old Testament people perceived God as wrathful and always terribly unhappy with us about something--and sometimes, it seemed, about everything. Turns out Jews don't view God this way at all. Hebrew and Biblical cultures are vastly different from English and modern Western culture. Hebrew teaches to think in an entirely different way.

While Western culture seems to focus on God killed the babies! God killed the first born! God wanted someone to sacrifice a child! Hebrew presents an entirely different perspective. What can people learn from the Great Flood? After all the Hebrew children the Egyptians killed, why were only a small percentage of Egyptians taken? What does the story of Abraham and Isaac teach society about what pleases God--and what does not please Him?

The entire Bible provides a beautiful lesson in Critical Thinking. It is a great way to get past Binary Thinking where one must choose a side and cling to it. There is more than one way to think things through and each person come back even stronger in his/her own faith whether that be Jew or Christian. The Old Testament has given me expanded insight into the life of Jesus and who he was/is. It gives those of Jewish faith an expanded insight into why they choose to live their lives and their beliefs the way they do. It is a win-win for all. My opinion and experience.

That ^ was a tremendously thoughtful post.

One of the best I’ve seen on this Board in a long time especially on a topic that seems to stir o so many people.

Thanks.

 

[AsherN]

as for the meaning of “virgin” I did some more (very basic) search engine looking around. I found this:

The Messiah Would Be Born of a Virgin - Jews for Jesus

More than most others, this prophecy has occasioned seemingly unending debate: was it fulfilled in Isaiah’s time, or was it for a later time?

jewsforjesus.org

It disputes that one word means virgin while the other (almah) means only young woman of marriageable age.



It also delves a bit into the meaning of “belulah.”

Bottom line appears to be (as is often the case with translations of ancient languages) that nuances and cultural understandings can lead to mis-translations. Alternatively, the translations might be pretty solid and later criticism of the translations might be misguided.

I have a long time friend who is Jewish. He once asked me if I knew the other name for the group called “Jews for Jesus.” I didn’t. He informed me: “Christians.”

He has a point.

J4J is a Christian organization. Of course they'll argue from that PoV.

 

[AsherN]

In many cases, the roots of Christian families trace back to Jewish families.

I’m not sure why Jews for Jesus are all that different. And I don’t know why their scholarship on this topic is necessarily misguided just because they have “found” Jesus.

Because their only goal is to convert Jews to Christianity. They are Christian. They are an offshoot of Baptists. Their scholarship on Jewish subjects will always be biased through a Christian lens.