Have We Given Up Essential Liberty For Temporary Safety? Yes or No?

[Baron]

"They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

The temporary safety will while not longer as a couple of years because our working places are continuously going to China, India and other "cheap" countries.At the End of this process we will have neither Liberty nor Safety.The dream of all political correct left idiots will be fulfilled: naked and poor.

 

[Oddball]

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, food stamps, gubmint schools, bailout nation, the DHS, TSA, FDA, DEA, BATF....

The essential liberty has been given up for the promise of safety innumerable times.

 

[Rocko]

The Patriot Act has been tremendously successful in keeping us safe while protecting our civil liberties.

 

[paulitician]

I guess Paul isnt going to answer me.

Anyone can rattle of supposed collective freedoms weve lost but no one ever seems to be able to site personal freedoms lost.

That's a disingenuous question. The loss of liberty occurs when the government CAN make an arbitrary victim of ANYONE, not when it actually DOES make an arbitrary victim of ME.

I, personally have not been spied upon without a warrant by federal agents (that I know of). I have certainly not been locked up without benefit of counsel, without charges, without due process, and without any recourse as an "enemy combatant." But if I must fear that the government MAY do these things to me any time it chooses, then I have lost liberty, even if, so far, it has NOT chosen to do them.

Remember:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

Just asking a question. There's nothing disingenuous about it. And you really don't know what they're doing. The Patriot Act allows for much secrecy. You only know what they want you to know. And what you don't know should concern you most.

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess Paul isnt going to answer me.

Anyone can rattle of supposed collective freedoms weve lost but no one ever seems to be able to site personal freedoms lost.

That's a disingenuous question. The loss of liberty occurs when the government CAN make an arbitrary victim of ANYONE, not when it actually DOES make an arbitrary victim of ME.

I, personally have not been spied upon without a warrant by federal agents (that I know of). I have certainly not been locked up without benefit of counsel, without charges, without due process, and without any recourse as an "enemy combatant." But if I must fear that the government MAY do these things to me any time it chooses, then I have lost liberty, even if, so far, it has NOT chosen to do them.

Remember:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

Just asking a question. There's nothing disingenuous about. And you really don't know what they're doing. The Patriot Act allows for much secrecy. You only know what they want you to know. And what you don't know should concern you most.

But in order for us to know, which would benefit us not at all, it would also be necessary for those who intend to commit unspeakable murder and mayhem against any American citizen they can to know. And that would benefit them a great deal.

You DO understand that is what the Patriot Act is for don't you? To keep evil people from committing unspeakable pain, suffering chaos, mayhem, and murder against you and yours? When there is ANY evidence that it is being used for ANY other purpose, then we might have something to talk about. As it is, we elect people to represent us to be our eyes and ears and protect us against unauthorized use of a tool necessary to secure our rights.

 

[paulitician]

That's a disingenuous question. The loss of liberty occurs when the government CAN make an arbitrary victim of ANYONE, not when it actually DOES make an arbitrary victim of ME.

I, personally have not been spied upon without a warrant by federal agents (that I know of). I have certainly not been locked up without benefit of counsel, without charges, without due process, and without any recourse as an "enemy combatant." But if I must fear that the government MAY do these things to me any time it chooses, then I have lost liberty, even if, so far, it has NOT chosen to do them.

Remember:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

Just asking a question. There's nothing disingenuous about. And you really don't know what they're doing. The Patriot Act allows for much secrecy. You only know what they want you to know. And what you don't know should concern you most.

But in order for us to know, which would benefit us not at all, it would also be necessary for those who intend to commit unspeakable murder and mayhem against any American citizen they can to know. And that would benefit them a great deal.

You DO understand that is what the Patriot Act is for don't you? To keep evil people from committing unspeakable pain, suffering chaos, mayhem, and murder against you and yours? When there is ANY evidence that it is being used for ANY other purpose, then we might have something to talk about. As it is, we elect people to represent us to be our eyes and ears and protect us against unauthorized use of a tool necessary to secure our rights.

They already had the tools. With the Patriot Act they only took more of our freedom away.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Just asking a question. There's nothing disingenuous about. And you really don't know what they're doing. The Patriot Act allows for much secrecy. You only know what they want you to know. And what you don't know should concern you most.

But in order for us to know, which would benefit us not at all, it would also be necessary for those who intend to commit unspeakable murder and mayhem against any American citizen they can to know. And that would benefit them a great deal.

You DO understand that is what the Patriot Act is for don't you? To keep evil people from committing unspeakable pain, suffering chaos, mayhem, and murder against you and yours? When there is ANY evidence that it is being used for ANY other purpose, then we might have something to talk about. As it is, we elect people to represent us to be our eyes and ears and protect us against unauthorized use of a tool necessary to secure our rights.

They already had the tools. With the Patriot Act they only took more of our freedom away.

I'll ask again.....

WHAT FREEDOMS HAVE YOU LOST?

 

[Oddball]

The Patriot Act has been tremendously successful in keeping us safe while protecting our civil liberties.

Bullshit.

And don't try to tell me that you can prove positive results with negative evidence.

 

[Oddball]

One of the problems I feel Paul has is his over simplification of issues. Liberty and our safety are both paramount.

What does liberty do for the World Trade victims or intentional plane crash victims? Is TSA taking away our rights? they are striving for the least intrusion for passengers in assuring we have a safe homeland against thise who wish to kill us. It's not easy to balance both, but we must. This is just one example of "rights" being taken away from our citizens that many would not approve.

The Patriot Act has been designed so we are safe and still alive to enjoy our liberties. The rights of those who wish to harm us, whether American or foreign born has to to be compromised for the safety of our citizens. And now it's law...a good one.

Total 100% bullshit.

The USAPATRIOT Act is a collection of police/snoop state items from Clintoon's/Reno's wish list, which republicans shot down time and again, as overreaching incursions on privacy and blatant circumventions of the 4th Amendment.

Funny how their tune changed when they were the ones who got to be the snoops and treat everyone as suspects.

 

[paulitician]

The Telecoms were just granted immunity too. So we'll likely never know how much we've been violated. Since 911,they really have taken so much away from us. It's very sad.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

I can't answer the question because it assumes that our surrender of liberty made us safer.

 

[FactFinder]

I voted YES. Ron Paul is right about that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

One of the problems I feel Paul has is his over simplification of issues. Liberty and our safety are both paramount.

What does liberty do for the World Trade victims or intentional plane crash victims? Is TSA taking away our rights? they are striving for the least intrusion for passengers in assuring we have a safe homeland against thise who wish to kill us. It's not easy to balance both, but we must. This is just one example of "rights" being taken away from our citizens that many would not approve.

The Patriot Act has been designed so we are safe and still alive to enjoy our liberties. The rights of those who wish to harm us, whether American or foreign born has to to be compromised for the safety of our citizens. And now it's law...a good one.

See the Benjamin Franklin quote in the OP. After you do that, show me one attack the TSA prevented. I can think of 3 attacks off the top of my head that got past the TSA since it was created, and can point out that people routinely walk through TSA checkpoints with loaded guns in their carryons. That means you let the TSA hassle, and got nothing in return.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Yes, and this was done by the Bush Regime w/Herr Rumsfeld and Herr Vader, I mean Herr Cheney. All with the cheering of folks on the Right like yourself, and all the Republicans. If the Bush Regime was a Star Wars episode/movie it would be titled 'Rise of The Neo-Cons'

The idea of "safety" as was made popular during the Neo-Con phase of Government is a myth. It's a political dog-whistle to gather the troops of support. There's no such thing as "safety," anything can happen to any of us at any time. The party that proports to be Christians should know better. It's really sickening!

And continued under Herr Obama by Frau Napolitano and Herr Holder. Nice of you to show your normal partisan stupidity.

 

[Listening]

There are all kinds of liberties being taken away.

Here is a from a Tea Party Type: I happen to agree wit him.

Other liberties lost include the right to conduct and start a small business or farm or grassroots organization without being harassed and taxed to insolvency in order to protect big government’s special interests. Think small US toy manufacturers having to pay thousands to millions to test lead for every product they made even though there is no possibility of having lead in it. Think of the Food Modernization Act bill, where every small farmer, food stand, organic farmer having to pay $500- $thousands in new registrations and licensing fees that will eventually put them out of business for the benefit of the large mega agriculture corporations. Thank you, Tonko and Murphy.

Finally, think of the increase to $350,000 of liability every new born child inherits for just being born. They did nothing to deserve a debt they can never be able to pay off. This is, by dictionary definition, both slavery and serfdom. There is no liberty in slavery.

********************8

You are no longer free to utize approximately 12% of your income in the way you would like as government puts it "away for you". Do you have a choice in the matter ?

 

[FactFinder]

One of the problems I feel Paul has is his over simplification of issues. Liberty and our safety are both paramount.

What does liberty do for the World Trade victims or intentional plane crash victims? Is TSA taking away our rights? they are striving for the least intrusion for passengers in assuring we have a safe homeland against thise who wish to kill us. It's not easy to balance both, but we must. This is just one example of "rights" being taken away from our citizens that many would not approve.

The Patriot Act has been designed so we are safe and still alive to enjoy our liberties. The rights of those who wish to harm us, whether American or foreign born has to to be compromised for the safety of our citizens. And now it's law...a good one.

See the Benjamin Franklin quote in the OP. After you do that, show me one attack the TSA prevented. I can think of 3 attacks off the top of my head that got past the TSA since it was created, and can point out that people routinely walk through TSA checkpoints with loaded guns in their carryons. That means you let the TSA hassle, and got nothing in return.

The TSA hasn't done shit except be a stalker and a nuisance.

 

[paulitician]

Hey even i'm a bit surprised at these poll results so far. Not even close.

 

[Dragon]

Any time you have the federal government doing what the Founders never intended for it to do, it is a 'leftist' initiative regardless of who originated it.

Utter bollox.

 

[Dragon]

Senators Demand the Military Lock Up American Citizens in a

Can there be any doubt the answer to the poll question is "yes"?

Of course, this is blatantly unconstitutional and violates the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. But if anyone challenging it can be locked up without trial, how will the courts ever see a case to rule on it?

This is the very essence of tyranny.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I, personally have not been spied upon without a warrant by federal agents (that I know of).

That you know of.

Exactly. That one can not even be sure is a loss of personal freedom.

That this is even subject of debate among Americans is telling and sad.

For the past approximately 100 years, however, the leftists among us have forgotten or never learned to appreciate that original concept. And they have inch by inch, law by law, regulation by regulation, and court decision after court decision been stripping away our ability to govern ourselves and replacing those freedoms with authoritarian government.

Incorrect again, as usual.

In fact, liberals have worked tirelessly during that period to realize the original intent of the Framers, to limit government and enhance personal liberty:

By ending segregation: Brown v. Board of Education (1954)

By ending discrimination: Hernandez v. Texas (1954)

By ending the tyranny of ‘states rights’: Cooper v. Aaron (1958)

By ensuring the right to due process: Mapp v. Ohio (1961), Gideon v. Wainwright (1963)

By ensuring the right to privacy - Griswold v. Connecticut (1965)

By ensuring the right to equal protection under the law: Loving v. Virginia (1967)

In these and scores of other cases, it was conservatives who worked against individual liberty and to enhance the power of government.