Have the Americans accepted that gun crime is a price worth paying to be able to hold arms?

[PredFan]

"Have the Americans accepted that gun crime is a price worth paying to be able to hold arms?"

Loaded question fallacy.

This is a mental health issue, not a 'gun' issue, having nothing to do with gun control, gun laws, or the Second Amendment.

There are two fundamental elements in play with this and other like incidents: the unwillingness or inability of Americans to implement comprehensive mental health programs and policies, and the inherently violent nature of American society, where violence is perceived as a legitimate means of conflict resolution.

Second Amendment jurisprudence in no way 'facilitates' gun violence, it concerns solely safeguarding the right to possess a firearm pursuant to the right of self-defense from unwarranted government regulation and interference – and rightfully so given the wrongheaded notion that crimes such as that which occurred in Oregon are the result of 'too many guns' that are 'too easily' acquired.

The resolution to this problem will be realized through the political – not legal – process, where the American people must insist in the funding and implementation of comprehensive mental health programs and policies and address the violent nature of American society.

I agree. This is an issue mainly about the nature of US society.

The problem is we know that the politicians won't do anything useful about this.

We know most people on this forum won't demand something useful be done.

The left will scream only about guns and demand this and that, generally that guns are banned, and the right will scream at the left and insult them and ignore everything else.

Downhill goes the USA.

Wrong you moron. We do demand something be done. The difference is the we aren't stupidly obsessed with the tool used like you idiots are. We want to discover why so much violent crime is occurring.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Why do you assume I am against all gun ownership? Its a meme, let it go.

I think well regulated gun sales are warranted. Most current gun owners support rigid background checks, this seems sane to 80-90% of the population. Cars are licensed, every person has a number in the form of an SS number, the rules for operating an aircraft are very strict. Guns simply need to be treated like everything else in the society. Regulate and use current technology to embed a chip in each one so it can be identified if used in a crime, or even remotely disabled.

Idiotic to compare cars which aren't constitutionally protected with guns. did you know that crooks cannot be prosecuted for failing to register guns

so you want laws that only harass honest gun owners

Same tired old ignorant arguments.
All laws then harass honest people by your definition.

False.
The laws that prohibit felons from owning guns and voting do not harass honest people.
The laws against murder, rape, assault, theft, etc, do not harass honest people.
More examples at your request.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

implementation of comprehensive mental health programs.

I'm reading "The Myth of Mental Illness" now.It makes your proposal seem absurd. Would you have declared the San Bernardino killers mentally ill and searched them monthly for guns?

America was peaceful in the Republican 1950's when Republican family, school, religious, and economic values prevailed. Liberalism has been a very very violent failure but liberals lack the character to face what they have done. .

 

[petro]

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Benjamin Franklin said:"Those who trade liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

My favorite quote. Those who argue against the 2nd Amendment better be prepared to lose the 1st.
How quick they forget the Bill of Rights...God given and inalienable rights of the People. No exceptions.
Typical that the OP is out of Britain. The very reason that the Anti-Federalists insisted on the Bill of Rights.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

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The OP seems to call for little more response than to point it out as yet another example out of many of the British reminding us why we kicked them out of our country more than two centuries ago, and demonstrating that our reasons for doing so remain valid to this day.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

False.
The laws that prohibit felons from owning guns and voting do not harass honest people.

It does if you're required to prove that you're not a felon, as a condition of exercising a right.

“Innocent until proven guilty”, after all. The burden belongs on one who seeks to deny an individual his rights, to prove that that denial is justified; not on the one seeking to exercise a right to prove that there is no cause why he should be so denied.

 

[regent]

I think a number of Americans have accepted the price but I don't know about the kids that end up paying the price.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I think a number of Americans have accepted the price but I don't know about the kids that end up paying the price.

Nice appeal to emotion you have going there.
Have anything else?

 

[M14 Shooter]

False.
The laws that prohibit felons from owning guns and voting do not harass honest people.

It does if you're required to prove that you're not a felon, as a condition of exercising a right.

Yes... but that's a different law.

 

[OldLady]

Freedom isn't pretty. I hear totalitarian societies are nice and safe and orderly. If safety is more important to you than freedom, there are plenty of places you can live that will give you the illusion of safety that you desire.

Is there no middle ground? I've read a lot of view points and BOTH sides have valid concerns. It is when neither side will give anything that we end up with an embarrassing stalemate where it looks to the world as if we don't care that citizens are shot daily. Didn't you learn that with our rights come responsibilities to our society as a whole? Maybe they don't teach that anymore. I don't know.

 

[regent]

I think a number of Americans have accepted the price but I don't know about the kids that end up paying the price.

Nice appeal to emotion you have going there.
Have anything else?

Maybe you're right. best not to think about the young only about the guns.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I think a number of Americans have accepted the price but I don't know about the kids that end up paying the price.

Nice appeal to emotion you have going there.
Have anything else?

Maybe you're right.

I know I'm right -- if it weren't for appeals to emotion, outright ignorance and/or just plain dishonesty, anti-gun loons would have nothing to post.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Freedom isn't pretty. I hear totalitarian societies are nice and safe and orderly. If safety is more important to you than freedom, there are plenty of places you can live that will give you the illusion of safety that you desire.

Is there no middle ground?

There is:
1: Effectively enforce the laws already in place.
2: Do not try to prevent crime by laws that only further limit the rights of the law abiding, as laws cannot prevent people from breaking other laws.

 

[OldLady]

Freedom isn't pretty. I hear totalitarian societies are nice and safe and orderly. If safety is more important to you than freedom, there are plenty of places you can live that will give you the illusion of safety that you desire.

Is there no middle ground?

There is:
1: Effectively enforce the laws already in place.
2: Do not try to prevent crime by laws that only further limit the rights of the law abiding, as laws cannot prevent people from breaking other laws.

Is closing the loopholes in background checks really "further limiting the rights of the law abiding?" I don't see why law abiding folks are so concerned about that. I think a lot of the concern is for things that haven't happened yet.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Freedom isn't pretty. I hear totalitarian societies are nice and safe and orderly. If safety is more important to you than freedom, there are plenty of places you can live that will give you the illusion of safety that you desire.

Is there no middle ground?

There is:
1: Effectively enforce the laws already in place.
2: Do not try to prevent crime by laws that only further limit the rights of the law abiding, as laws cannot prevent people from breaking other laws.

Is closing the loopholes in background checks....

There sis no loophole in the current law for background check -- it is never possible to legally avoid the background checks prescribed by law.
Never.
Ever.

I don't see why law abiding folks are so concerned about that.

Universal background checks are unenforceable w/o universal gun registration.
Everyone knows this, which is the reason behind the push for it.

 

[hadit]

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I don't see why not. They long ago accepted traffic fatalities is a price worth paying to be able to drive fast.

 

[M14 Shooter]

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I don't see why not. They long ago accepted traffic fatalities is a price worth paying to be able to drive fast.

Oh, and construction fatalities as the price for having buildings, bridges, dams, etc.

 

[hadit]

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I don't see why not. They long ago accepted traffic fatalities is a price worth paying to be able to drive fast.

Oh, and construction fatalities as the price for having buildings, bridges, dams, etc.

There are those who say that no cost is too high if it saves one life. That simply is not true, as borne out by these examples.

 

[M14 Shooter]

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I don't see why not. They long ago accepted traffic fatalities is a price worth paying to be able to drive fast.

Oh, and construction fatalities as the price for having buildings, bridges, dams, etc.

There are those who say that no cost is too high if it saves one life. That simply is not true, as borne out by these examples.

Yeah -- it doesn't apply when it works against the narrative.

 

[regent]

Damn, I keep forgetting why it is so important for people to have guns. Is it the same reason kids need to have toy guns and need to pretend to shoot one another? But that brings up still another question, why is it important for kids to pretend to shoot one another with toy guns? Do all people ever grow out of that stage with time, or do some get left in that period?