Hamas Leader Killed

A perfect example being North Cyprus, illegally occupied by the Turks, to this day. Not recognised as legal by any country in the world except Turkey.
Yep. Its a double standard applied only to Israel. Only Israel is recognized as an "occupier" of its own sovereign territory. It is like saying that Cyprus is occupying Northern Cyprus or Ukraine is occupying Crimea.
 
Yep. Its a double standard applied only to Israel. Only Israel is recognized as an "occupier" of its own sovereign territory. It is like saying that Cyprus is occupying Northern Cyprus or Ukraine is occupying Crimea.
Yes, the double standards applied to Israel is a major “tell.”

I recall the usual debate with an anti-Israel poster (whom I will not name), and, like Shags upthread, brought up examples of countries that are doing what she is criticizing Israel for but has never even once mentioned them - and asked why.

The best she could come up with was that she was “passionate” about Israel in particular. When I asked her what is was about Israel that made her more passionate (translation: critical) about Israel when the others don’t even appear on her radar, the only thing she could come up with was “I just am.”

In his book, Things that Matter, Charles Krauthammer (may he RIP) he had a chapter on the double standard applied to Israel, and without a doubt he said it was due to antisemitism. He was a brilliant man, and an inspirational one.
 
You seem to have missed the point, or have become distracted by a side issue. Allow me to reframe.

The narrative that Israel is in possession of territory which does not belong to her gives people the permission or the righteous indignation to characterize Israel's actions as wrong and as committing harm.

The narrative that Israel has sovereign claim to the territory gives people the permission to characterize Israel's actions as respectful of Arab Palestinian claim to self-determination and a future Arab Palestinian State.

Of course, these things aren't truly "narratives". There is a correct legal answer here. And that matters.
And that is where we disagree. There is no consensus on Israel’s sovereign territory. When Israel was recognized as a state, in the UN, this was not part of its territory. It was inhabited by a people who pre-existed the state and contested Israel’s claim to it.

There is absolutely nothing “respectful” about keeping an entire people under military law for generations because….well…they are Palestinian and it would be demographically undesirable to allow them a full set of rights.
 
Yep. Exactly right. Discourse since October 7 depends on leaving Hamas out of the conversation as though the actions of Hamas and Hamas supporters in Gaza are irrelevant to Israel's actions.
Actually, there is a bit left out.

On the pro-Israel side, the discourse is dependent on excluding decades of conflict, including actions by Israel athan have led to this current conflict. Rather than looking at at as a whole, we start with October 7.
 
And that is where we disagree. There is no consensus on Israel’s sovereign territory. When Israel was recognized as a state, in the UN, this was not part of its territory. It was inhabited by a people who pre-existed the state and contested Israel’s claim to it.

There is absolutely nothing “respectful” about keeping an entire people under military law for generations because….well…they are Palestinian and it would be demographically undesirable to allow them a full set of rights.
As always, nothing but lies from you. The Arabs in the territories do not live under military law. Under Oslo, they are citizens of the Palestinian Authority and live under the PA's laws unless they are attacking Jews and then they are subject to Israeli law which is appropriately administered by the military.

All the information we have tells us that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians are either active terrorists or support acts of terrorism against Jews and as that remains true it is racist nonsense on your part to suggest that they are being punished simply because they are Palestinians.
 
And that is where we disagree. There is no consensus on Israel’s sovereign territory.
International law is not set up for sovereign territory to be determined by "consensus", whether consensus of the international community or the inhabitants. Not in 1948. There are legal pathways: treaties and customary law.
When Israel was recognized as a state, in the UN, this was not part of its territory.
Legally, factually incorrect. This is simply wrong. That territory was no longer part of the Ottoman Empire. It was not Turkey. It was not Jordan. It was not Egypt, nor Lebanon, nor Syria, nor Iraq. There were no other States or governments in the territory. (If there had been another state or government in the territory - there would be evidence of such in the form of treaties, agreements, declarations of independence. There is none.) It can only be Israel.

(Which is not to say that there is not a claim to self-determination by the Arabs in that territory. But that claim to self-determination can only be realized by agreement with the sovereign. In international law, at this time, the tension between territorial integrity and self-determination leans towards territorial integrity - hello, Ukraine!)

There is absolutely nothing “respectful” about keeping an entire people under military law for generations because….well…they are Palestinian and it would be demographically undesirable to allow them a full set of rights.
Then you are arguing a one-state solution where Israel applies Israeli law to the entire territory and ending the possibility of Palestinian self-determination. Is that what you intend?
 
Actually, there is a bit left out.

On the pro-Israel side, the discourse is dependent on excluding decades of conflict, including actions by Israel athan have led to this current conflict. Rather than looking at at as a whole, we start with October 7.
Hardly. With respect to Gaza, specifically, we tend to start with 2005 as the point of creating a solution. Self-determination, sovereignty, statehood in exchange for the cessation of violence at least and peaceful mutual prosperity at best.
 
And that is where we disagree. There is no consensus on Israel’s sovereign territory. When Israel was recognized as a state, in the UN, this was not part of its territory. It was inhabited by a people who pre-existed the state and contested Israel’s claim to it.
And let me, again, return to my point. The current, widely-adopted narrative is that Israel is occupying someone else's territory. This has the effect of painting Israel as committing illegal and immoral acts. It colors Israel as the aggressor.

I would like to invite you to consider that this narrative is not accurate, or, if you are not willing to do that, consider that this narrative is lacking fair nuance and complexity.

You and I have long agreed that BOTH the Jewish and the Arab people should have separate self-determination and national sovereignty in that territory. You and I agree that ethnic cleansing is abhorrent and should never be practiced. I think you and I agree that there is no reason for Jews and Arabs not to be able to live peacefully in the same state.

So, why can't we start with the position that no one "occupies" territory belonging to the other because the territory has yet to be divided into two states?
 
And let me, again, return to my point. The current, widely-adopted narrative is that Israel is occupying someone else's territory. This has the effect of painting Israel as committing illegal and immoral acts. It colors Israel as the aggressor.

I would like to invite you to consider that this narrative is not accurate, or, if you are not willing to do that, consider that this narrative is lacking fair nuance and complexity.

You and I have long agreed that BOTH the Jewish and the Arab people should have separate self-determination and national sovereignty in that territory. You and I agree that ethnic cleansing is abhorrent and should never be practiced. I think you and I agree that there is no reason for Jews and Arabs not to be able to live peacefully in the same state.

So, why can't we start with the position that no one "occupies" territory belonging to the other because the territory has yet to be divided into two states?
That is an interesting position. So then that territory is …no one’s at this point?

If that is the case then the same system of law should apply to all within that territory should it not?
 
That is an interesting position. So then that territory is …no one’s at this point?
Sure. Let's go with that for now.
If that is the case then the same system of law should apply to all within that territory should it not?
Why? Until the border is established, why shouldn't Israeli law apply to Israelis and Palestinian law apply to Palestinians?
 
International law is not set up for sovereign territory to be determined by "consensus", whether consensus of the international community or the inhabitants. Not in 1948. There are legal pathways: treaties and customary law.

Legally, factually incorrect. This is simply wrong. That territory was no longer part of the Ottoman Empire. It was not Turkey. It was not Jordan. It was not Egypt, nor Lebanon, nor Syria, nor Iraq. There were no other States or governments in the territory. (If there had been another state or government in the territory - there would be evidence of such in the form of treaties, agreements, declarations of independence. There is none.) It can only be Israel.
There is nothing stating that it is Israel’s either other than fact of having taken it in war. No treaties or agreements, nor has it ever been recognized as Israel’s. Other than Israel’s claiming it. Israel itself has repeatedly called it an occupation over the decades and defended the need to keep it occupied. It has never explicitly claimed it as its own territory.

Historically, I can’t see any basis for that claim since the partition plan for ending the mandate divided the territory into an “Arab” state and a “Jewish” state who’s boundaries do not resemble what we see today. What is the West Bank looks to be part of what was designated for an “Arab” state. The Zionist delegation apparently agreed with the plan. (As a side note…it was an interesting bit of reading (yes, it’s wiki) having many different factions representing different interests and concerns amidst a backdrop of Arab and Jewish nationalism.)

Also, if we are talking about international law, who adjucates it? States have high courts that ultimately determine the legality of an issue in relation to the country’s laws.

When it comes to international law it would appear that that is done by the ICJ.

According to this, it serves two functions:

  • To settle, in accordance with international law, legal disputes submitted by States, and
  • To give advisory opinions on legal questions referred to it by authorized UN organs and specialized agencies.

What have they said?

(Which is not to say that there is not a claim to self-determination by the Arabs in that territory. But that claim to self-determination can only be realized by agreement with the sovereign. In international law, at this time, the tension between territorial integrity and self-determination leans towards territorial integrity - hello, Ukraine!)

Well….territorial integrity is interesting to bring up since Israeli settlement building in the West Bank has effectively destroyed any hope for the territorial integrity of a future Palestinian state.

Then you are arguing a one-state solution where Israel applies Israeli law to the entire territory and ending the possibility of Palestinian self-determination. Is that what you intend?
Isreal is currently applying two systems of law in a territory it does formally recognize as part of its sovereign. One set of laws for its citizens another for non citizens. Shouldn’t it be military law for all…as it was at one time? Applying two completely separate systems of law to residents of the same territory would make sense in an occupation and would be the legal requirement of an occupation but not in “sovereign territory”.

Under military law there is no recognition of any of the basic rights every Israeli citizen takes for granted. It is pretty brutal. I also don’t buy that it is necessary to have JUST the Palestinians residents under military rule in the disputed territory in order to eventually have self determination for them. You could have a system analogous to what we have with the various Native American nations.

Going further, why does it have to be military law if it isn’t an occupation?
 
Yes, the double standards applied to Israel is a major “tell.”

I recall the usual debate with an anti-Israel poster (whom I will not name), and, like Shags upthread, brought up examples of countries that are doing what she is criticizing Israel for but has never even once mentioned them - and asked why.

The best she could come up with was that she was “passionate” about Israel in particular. When I asked her what is was about Israel that made her more passionate (translation: critical) about Israel when the others don’t even appear on her radar, the only thing she could come up with was “I just am.”

In his book, Things that Matter, Charles Krauthammer (may he RIP) he had a chapter on the double standard applied to Israel, and without a doubt he said it was due to antisemitism. He was a brilliant man, and an inspirational one.
Got a link to that debate? I’m curious as to whether you are presenting it accurately or if this is your usual spin.
 
Sure. Let's go with that for now.

Why? Until the border is established, why shouldn't Israeli law apply to Israelis and Palestinian law apply to Palestinians?
But it isn’t that way. Military law overrides Palestinian law.
 
Hardly. With respect to Gaza, specifically, we tend to start with 2005 as the point of creating a solution. Self-determination, sovereignty, statehood in exchange for the cessation of violence at least and peaceful mutual prosperity at best.
Hardly what?

It goes back further than that. And you can’t keep leaving the West Bank.
 
There is nothing stating that it is Israel’s either other than fact of having taken it in war. No treaties or agreements, nor has it ever been recognized as Israel’s.
Again, legally and factually incorrect. Israel took no territory in war that she did not already have sovereign claim and legal entitlement to. At best, as argued above, it belonged to no one. Would you like me to walk you through all the treaties and customary law which supports Israel's legal claim to the entirety of the Mandate for Palestine territory?
Historically, I can’t see any basis for that claim since the partition plan for ending the mandate divided the territory into an “Arab” state and a “Jewish” state who’s boundaries do not resemble what we see today.
UNGA resolution. Not binding in law.
Also, if we are talking about international law, who adjucates it?

When it comes to international law it would appear that that is done by the ICJ.

What have they said?
The ICJ has neither been asked for, nor provided, an advisory opinion on the legal status of the territory commonly now referred to as "the occupied territories". So they haven't said anything.
 
Hardly what?

It goes back further than that. And you can’t keep leaving the West Bank.
With the West Bank, the timing of a prospect for a solution would be 1994 and the Oslo Accords. Which also should have led to self-determination, sovereignty, and statehood.
 
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