Hamas Leader Killed

[ShahdagMountains]

You mean like dominos falling?

I have to catch up with Caroline. I watched some of it.

 

[Shusha]

You mean like dominos falling?

I have to catch up with Caroline. I watched some of it.

Yep, basically. Ripple effect as Iran's proxies are disrupted. Lebanon next. Then Jordan.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Yep, basically. Ripple effect as Iran's proxies are disrupted. Lebanon next. Then Jordan.

But l am uneasy when there is a vacuum. Anything could happen. And l’ve never trusted the Turks. They’re unreliable.

I’m down in that region next week.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yep, basically. Ripple effect as Iran's proxies are disrupted. Lebanon next. Then Jordan.

Disrupt Iran.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

 

[Shusha]

Excellent! I was actually trying to think of things that have been obstacles in prior negotiations because they were “nonnegotiable” such as “right of return “.

I think one of the issues with conversation is the whole idea of "obstacles". It is one of the reasons why terminology like "occupation" should be set aside. "Occupation" presumes that there is an obstacle and that one side is responsible for that "obstacle" and is required to change before there can be forward movement.

Rather, let's consider a mutually beneficial end point and work backward from there. I think that, over the past roughly 90 years, this obstacle vs end point has shifted and this is preventing solutions.

No matter how you dissect it, or what narratives you tell, the territory of the Mandate for Palestine has never been legally divided into two separate states. The only way to divide a state into two separate states is by treaty agreement. This has never been done with the Mandate territory.

This is especially concerning for me today as I witnessed Francesca Albanese say before the UN Human Rights Council that there should be no negotiation between Israel and "Palestine".

Not that Francesca Albanese has a right to determine international law, but this represents a significant (can't be overstated!) destruction of existing international law and an undermining of state sovereignty. (Which would be an interesting discussion to have, but whoa, we can only talk so many subjects at once and you and I tend to spill over anyway). Think about it. If self-determination completely ignores state sovereignty (territorial integrity) without negotiation, nor expectation of treaty agreements or peace agreements, nor expectations of competent government, what becomes the basis of international co-operation and peace?

 

[Lisa558]

I think one of the issues with conversation is the whole idea of "obstacles". It is one of the reasons why terminology like "occupation" should be set aside. "Occupation" presumes that there is an obstacle and that one side is responsible for that "obstacle" and is required to change before there can be forward movement.

Rather, let's consider a mutually beneficial end point and work backward from there. I think that, over the past roughly 90 years, this obstacle vs end point has shifted and this is preventing solutions.

No matter how you dissect it, or what narratives you tell, the territory of the Mandate for Palestine has never been legally divided into two separate states. The only way to divide a state into two separate states is by treaty agreement. This has never been done with the Mandate territory.

This is especially concerning for me today as I witnessed Francesca Albanese say before the UN Human Rights Council that there should be no negotiation between Israel and "Palestine".

Not that Francesca Albanese has a right to determine international law, but this represents a significant (can't be overstated!) destruction of existing international law and an undermining of state sovereignty. (Which would be an interesting discussion to have, but whoa, we can only talk so many subjects at once and you and I tend to spill over anyway). Think about it. If self-determination completely ignores state sovereignty (territorial integrity) without negotiation, nor expectation of treaty agreements or peace agreements, nor expectations of competent government, what becomes the basis of international co-operation and peace?

I realize you and Coyote are in a discussion, but I’d like to interject here with a thought about obstacles:

Do what extent does the U.N. Itself create an obstacle? This is a decidedly anti-Israel, antisemitic body - and based on what Albanese said, is likely to block any advances to peace. Just look at her title: Special Rapportour on the Occupied Palestinian Territories!

Perhaps fodder for a different thread, but what does the U.S. gain by our participation - and money! - and hosting!! - of an antisemitic body that tries to delegitimize our #1 ally in the Middle East?

Perhaps a (back-burner) goal of Trump’s will be to discontinue our hosting of a major antisemitic organization in NYC.

 

[Shusha]

I realize you and Coyote are in a discussion, but I’d like to interject here with a thought about obstacles:

Do what extent does the U.N. Itself create an obstacle? This is a decidedly anti-Israel, antisemitic body - and based on what Albanese said, is likely to block any advances to peace. Just look at her title: Special Rapportour on the Occupied Palestinian Territories!

Perhaps fodder for a different thread, but what does the U.S. gain by our participation - and money! - and hosting!! - of an antisemitic body that tries to delegitimize our #1 ally in the Middle East?

Perhaps a (back-burner) goal of Trump’s will be to discontinue our hosting of a major antisemitic organization in NYC.

The UN is absolutely an obstacle. Not only because the UN is anti-Israel (and antisemitic), but because the UN has created falsehoods and written them into UN documentation, giving them the illusion of law, even though the UN does not create law. “Occupied Palestinian Territories, including East Jerusalem”, as example, has become the normalized terminology. There is no such thing and yet it has been accepted as fact. These “facts on the ground” have created far more of an obstacle to a negotiated peace and settlement of Palestinian self-determination than anything Israel has done.