Hamas Leader Killed

[Lisa558]

Ireland?

For a true model, we’d have to find a country in similar straights to Israel: a country that Iran is trying to destroy by funding terrorist attacks against it from surrounding areas.

 

[Lisa558]

Why? We have barely begun this discussion. I am reconsidering my view regarding occupied vs. disputed.

You certainly don’t consider Gaza occupied, do you? The Israelis vacated the area close to 20 years ago.

 

[Shusha]

If we leave everything open, aren’t we saying the entire state of Israel is disputed territory?

We are DEFINITELY NOT saying that. We are saying that if we have to do a little land trading, we can.

I would think we would need some limitations if we are trying to be realistic (as in this could actually work) but I will go with this.

In general, the parameters would include:
Territorial integrity.
Access to resources.
A independent structure for governing.
A independent judicial system.
The ability to enter into treaties, agreements and trade with other nations.
One would hope the ability to maintain peaceful relations with other states, but the reality is most viable states do not consistently do this.

Yep, these things would be expected. Resources (water) would have to have some level of careful mutual management agreements.

 

[Shusha]

Why? We have barely begun this discussion. I am reconsidering my view regarding occupied vs. disputed.

Undecided.

 

[Coyote]

Ireland?

For a true model, we’d have to find a country in similar straights to Israel: a country that Iran is trying to destroy by funding terrorist attacks against it from surrounding areas.

There are a lot of countries facing similar threats around the world, they just don’t get any attention. I also don’t think that has any bearing on how to resolve the issue of disputed territory.

 

[Coyote]

We are DEFINITELY NOT saying that. We are saying that if we have to do a little land trading, we can.

Yep, these things would be expected. Resources (water) would have to have some level of careful mutual management agreements.

I am going to add to this then: the non-negotiables need to be identified.

 

[Lisa558]

There are a lot of countries facing similar threats around the world, they just don’t get any attention. I also don’t think that has any bearing on how to resolve the issue of disputed territory.

Nothing similar to Israel. What countries are facing terrorist attacks funded by the Islamic Terror State of Iran?

 

[Lisa558]

There should be no discussion about separate states until the Muslim terrorists 1) return the hostages, and 2) honor a cease-fire for one year.

 

[Shusha]

I am going to add to this then: the non-negotiables need to be identified.

Non-negotiables:

contiguous territory for each state (excluding Gaza)
right of return is limited: Jews to Israel, Arabs to Palestine (family reunification excepted)
mutual resource management
no forced ethnic cleansing (voluntary is fine)

How's that for a start?

 

[Shusha]

There should be no discussion about separate states until the Muslim terrorists 1) return the hostages, and 2) honor a cease-fire for one year.

It's just a thought experiment on a very limited aspect of the conflict.

 

[Coyote]

Nothing similar to Israel. What countries are facing terrorist attacks funded by the Islamic Terror State of Iran?

Nothing similar?

Ukraine…which is facing a far worse existential threat against a much stronger enemy than Iran.
Taiwan and China…a balancing act.
South Sudan, struggling against multiple armed militia groups tearing it apart.
There are a number of armed conflicts around the world with militias and insurgency groups backed by outside states.

 

[Coyote]

Non-negotiables:

contiguous territory for each state (excluding Gaza)
right of return is limited: Jews to Israel, Arabs to Palestine (family reunification excepted)
mutual resource management
no forced ethnic cleansing (voluntary is fine)

How's that for a start?

Excellent! I was actually trying to think of things that have been obstacles in prior negotiations because they were “nonnegotiable” such as “right of return “.

Perhaps there should also be some form of compensation for those who feel they must leave because of changing sovereignty?

 

[Lisa558]

Nothing similar?

Ukraine…which is facing a far worse existential threat against a much stronger enemy than Iran.
Taiwan and China…a balancing act.
South Sudan, struggling against multiple armed militia groups tearing it apart.
There are a number of armed conflicts around the world with militias and insurgency groups backed by outside states.

And in none of those examples are there nationwide protests across America and Europe and Australia, with screams about “genocide,” and chants to kill those with the same ethnic heritage as the (perceived) perpetrator as there is with Israel and the Jews.

Double standards.

 

[Coyote]

And in none of those examples are there nationwide protests, with screams about “genocide,” and chants to kill those with the same ethnic heritage as the (perceived) perpetrator as there is with Israel and the Jews.

Double standards.

Now you are flailing all over the place with irrelevant nonsequiters. None of that has any bearing on what might be a comparable model for creating states.

 

[Lisa558]

Now you are flailing all over the place with irrelevant nonsequiters. None of that has any bearing on what might be a comparable model for creating states.

No, I’m pointing out that Israel has no comparables, given how villainized it is - and now determined people are to side against it.

 

[Ropey]

A Hamas Terrorist Leader assasinated?

And so...

Coyote is very angry.

It would seem that not enough Jews are dying for her liking. :|

 

[Coyote]

No, I’m pointing out that Israel has no comparables, given how villainized it is - and now determined people are to side against it.

I gave you a number of comparables of states with similar threats. You just choose not to see it. Ireland might be comparable but I don’t know enough to be sure. Religious factions, separatist movements, long history of violence and terrorism, legacy of British rule.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

It's just a thought experiment on a very limited aspect of the conflict.

Maybe we’re looking at this all wrong. With regard to the Arabs.

I’ve been delving into the Sykes Picot Agreement, and the notion of created artificial nation states. Syria, Jordan, Iraq, you name it. Carved out of the former Ottoman Empire. The Arabs want their Caliphate back. It’s rooted deeply into their psyche.

Lots of material there to sift through. To anyone who is interested.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Maybe we’re looking at this all wrong. With regard to the Arabs.

I’ve been delving into the Sykes Picot Agreement, and the notion of created artificial nation states. Syria, Jordan, Iraq, you name it. Carved out of the former Ottoman Empire. The Arabs want their Caliphate back. It’s rooted deeply into their psyche.

Lots of material there to sift through. To anyone who is interested.

What Caliphate? The Arabs have lived in Palestine for a long time, but they never had political control of Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Maybe we’re looking at this all wrong. With regard to the Arabs.

I’ve been delving into the Sykes Picot Agreement, and the notion of created artificial nation states. Syria, Jordan, Iraq, you name it. Carved out of the former Ottoman Empire. The Arabs want their Caliphate back. It’s rooted deeply into their psyche.

Lots of material there to sift through. To anyone who is interested.

Did you watch Caroline's show yesterday? She is predicting impending demise of all the countries in the region, Syria only being the first.