Hamas Leader Killed

[Shusha]

Why is the native population (non-Israeli citizen) under military law instead of Israeli civil law then?

Because Israel has been actively committed to preserving Arab Palestinian self-determination.

Why does the Israeli High Court refer to it as occupied territory?

Mostly for convenience. There are plenty of Israeli High Court documents which specifically reject that Israel has actually ceded territory, rather than being open to ceding territory.

Why does international law consider it occupied territory?

Twisted perversion of international law that demonstrates a uniquely applied version of "international law" only to Israel.

 

[Lisa558]

It’s actually “disputed territories,” and Israel is only one of several regions involved in such disputes. Odd how nobody seems to care about any of these others.

The Biggest Disputed Territories in the World

This article aims at introducing some of the world’s most disputed territories. The post will also talk about the sources of territorial disputes. Let’s find out the interesting reasons behind these disputes.

unacademy.com

 

[Shusha]

I think I will end up completely derailing this thread even further if that is possible, if I pursue this but I recall RoccoR argued this somewhere here. We won’t agree on this

Yeah. Everyone bails on this point. Because there is no possible legal perspective which divides the Mandate for Palestine into two sovereign territories (after Jordan was excluded). But this is the foundation of the issue. If you can't tell me where Israel ends and Palestine begins and give me a reasoning for your position, then you can't possibly claim "occupation". And yet you do.

 

[Lisa558]

As far as disputed territories, one cannot include Gaza since Jews vacated 20 years ago (and all the Gazans did during that time is indoctrinate their young to want to kill Jews, and launch rockets, with a build-up to the Oct 7 massacre.)

As far as East Jerusalem, how can Jews allow antisemitic Muslims intent on wiping out Israel live right in the city?

And as far as the West Bank, we have seen how Israel really needs to maintain a presence there for security reasons, although as I understand it, much of the area is off-limits to Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

Yeah. Everyone bails on this point. Because there is no possible legal perspective which divides the Mandate for Palestine into two sovereign territories (after Jordan was excluded). But this is the foundation of the issue. If you can't tell me where Israel ends and Palestine begins and give me a reasoning for your position, then you can't possibly claim "occupation". And yet you do.

There is no Palestine, is there?

 

[Coyote]

Because Israel has been actively committed to preserving Arab Palestinian self-determination.

Uh no. I do not buy that at all. Military law is much harsher with fewer rights and protections than civil law. This is in place because it is still legally considered occupied territory under international law…but…it is being eroded. Israeli citizens in occupied territory now enjoy the benefits of Israeli Civil law where they did not previously. They are not put under the military justice system.

Mostly for convenience. There are plenty of Israeli High Court documents which specifically reject that Israel has actually ceded territory, rather than being open to ceding territory.

Courts never do anything for convenience, they are usually very exact with meanings. They have to be.

Twisted perversion of international law that demonstrates a uniquely applied version of "international law" only to Israel.

I would disagree there. It is the same law that applies to others. If it is not occupied territory then the residents of that territory should not be treated as if it were and should be offered the same citizenship opportunities and priveleges of other Israeli’s. The way it is now seems to be a case of Israel wanting the benefits of both.

 

[Lisa558]

Uh no. I do not buy that at all. Military law is much harsher with fewer rights and protections than civil law. This is in place because it is still legally considered occupied territory under international law…but…it is being eroded. Israeli citizens in occupied territory now enjoy the benefits of Israeli Civil law where they did not previously. They are not put under the military justice system.




Courts never do anything for convenience, they are usually very exact with meanings. They have to be.


I would disagree there. It is the same law that applies to others. If it is not occupied territory then the residents of that territory should not be treated as if it were and should be offered the same citizenship opportunities and priveleges of other Israeli’s. The way it is now seems to be a case of Israel wanting the benefits of both.

You’re not suggesting that the Palestinians should be offered Israeli citizenship NOW, are you, after what their barbaric leaders did on Oct 7th? Most Palestinians supported the massacre. Why should Israel extend citizenship to people who want to wipe her out to sea?

 

[Coyote]

As far as East Jerusalem, how can Jews allow antisemitic Muslims intent on wiping out Israel live right in the city?

.

Muslims and Jews have lived together in Jerusalem for 1400 years without wiping each other out. And now, you don’t want to allow Muslims to live there anymore?

How nice.

 

[Lisa558]

Muslims and Jews have lived together in Jerusalem for 1400 years without wiping each other out. And now, you don’t want to allow Muslims to live there anymore?

How nice.

Did I say that? You sure like to twist words.

I said the PALESTINIANS - who want Jews killed. They are very different from the decent Muslims who are Israeli citizens.

 

[Coyote]

You’re not suggesting that the Palestinians should be offered Israeli citizenship NOW, are you, after what their barbaric leaders did on Oct 7th? Most Palestinians supported the massacre. Why should Israel extend citizenship to people who want to wipe her out to sea?

I’m talking about the West Bank at the moment, not Gaza. How long do you think Israel can continue a system with such completely different levels of rights and protections? Can Israel continue to call itself a democracy if it rules over a significant number of people who are not citizens of the land they occupy (despite being natives) and lack the basic rights, protections, freedoms and responsibilities that come with citizenship?

 

[Coyote]

Did I say that? You sure like to twist words.

I said the PALESTINIANS - who want Jews killed. They are very different from the decent Muslims who are Israeli citizens.

I’m not twisting anything. These are your exact words:

“As far as East Jerusalem, how can Jews allow antisemitic Muslims intent on wiping out Israel live right in the city?”

Those Muslims who have lived in Jerusalem for 1400 years are Palestinians. They have been living there since before Israel was a state and many have not been allowed Israeli citizenship.

 

[Lisa558]

I’m talking about the West Bank at the moment, not Gaza. How long do you think Israel can continue a system with such completely different levels of rights and protections? Can Israel continue to call itself a democracy if it rules over a significant number of people who are not citizens of the land they occupy (despite being natives) and lack the basic rights, protections, freedoms and responsibilities that come with citizenship?

How long will it take for the Islamic terrorists surrounding Israel to renounce their hateful ways? And for Iran to stop funding terrorist attacks against the Jews?

We need to see some real recognition from the Muslims in the disputed territories first. The ball is in their court.

 

[Lisa558]

I’m not twisting anything. These are your exact words:

“As far as East Jerusalem, how can Jews allow antisemitic Muslims intent on wiping out Israel live right in the city?”

Those Muslims who have lived in Jerusalem for 1400 years are Palestinians. They have been living there since before Israel was a state and many have not been allowed Israeli citizenship.

Yes, I am speaking of ANTISEMITIC Muslims - of which most are. The Muslims who are Israeli citizens are good ones, and appreciative of the nice life they have in Israel.

 

[Coyote]

How long will it take for the Islamic terrorists surrounding Israel to renounce their hateful ways? And for Iran to stop funding terrorist attacks against the Jews?

We need to see some real recognition from the Muslims in the disputed territories first. The ball is in their court.

Oh? It works both ways. The Palestinians, under the PLO, were willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist and to self determination.

Is it reciprocal?

 

[Shusha]

Uh no. I do not buy that at all. Military law is much harsher with fewer rights and protections than civil law. This is in place because it is still legally considered occupied territory under international law…but…it is being eroded.

If Israel applied Israeli law to Judea and Samaria it would be applying sovereignty over that territory. (Which it has every right to do and has not). The fact that Israel does not apply Israeli law over that territory is because Israel is leaving space for Arab Palestinian self-determination in that territory, pending agreements on boundaries and other issues.

Arab non-citizens in Israeli-controlled territories (by treaty agreement) are not provided with the same privileges as citizens of Israel. Obviously, since they are not citizens. They are provided with rights within the expectations of humanitarian law.

You can't at the same time argue for Israeli sovereignty and against Israeli sovereignty.

 

[Shusha]

Those Muslims who have lived in Jerusalem for 1400 years are Palestinians. They have been living there since before Israel was a state and many have not been allowed Israeli citizenship.

In point of fact, permanent residents of Jerusalem, regardless of ethnicity, are eligible for Israeli citizenship. It is false to say they are "not allowed". Most do not apply, but that is a far cry from they are "not allowed".

 

[Coyote]

Yes, I am speaking of ANTISEMITIC Muslims - of which most are. The Muslims who are Israeli citizens are good ones, and appreciative of the nice life they have in Israel.

You are quite adept at back tracking.

Only 5% of Israeli citizens in East Jerusalem have been able to obtain Israeli citizenship since 1967.

 

[Shusha]

There is no Palestine, is there?

Nah. I hate this argument. Israel has been committed to leaving space for an eventual second and third Arab Palestinian state in the territory of the Mandate for Palestine. And not for altruistic reasons, though there is certainly an element of that, but mostly for pragmatic and selfish reasons.

 

[Lisa558]

Oh? It works both ways. The Palestinians, under the PLO, were willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist and to self determination.

Is it reciprocal?

Israel made more than one offer, and the Palestinians rejected them because it required them to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and they hate Jews more than they want peace.

As far as the offer you are talking about, I’ll leave it to Shusha to explain why Israel didn’t take. It had to have been unreasonable.

 

[Lisa558]

Nah. I hate this argument. Israel has been committed to leaving space for an eventual second and third Arab Palestinian state in the territory of the Mandate for Palestine. And not for altruistic reasons, though there is certainly an element of that, but mostly for pragmatic and selfish reasons.

By “selfish,”: I take it you mean Israel wants to survive - and not be subjected to constant terrorists attacks.