Hamas Leader Killed

[Lisa558]

I wonder what the children of Gaza felt when they were surrounded by the blown up body parts of their families. No one to cover their eyes or safe place to bring them to.

The difference is that was unintentional, and largely the fault of the Islamic terrorists who use them as body amour.. The Muslim terrorists, on the other hand, TARGETED the innocent Jews.

 

[Coyote]

Well, and that is where things get legally interesting. It is not yet resolved, in international law, whether self-determination or whether territorial integrity of existing States takes precedence. So far, territorial integrity seems to be have a slight edge, as in: you can not force a State to give up sovereign territory in order to make room for self-determination.

I think (and it is cynical) that this also illustrates the limits of international law. If a state really wants a territory that isn’t currently part of it, it can manufacture reasons to create a conflict and take it by force, and assuming it is powerful enough, there is little the international community can do. (Russia with Ukraine, and also Georgia and Chechnya). In a similar way, if a state is holding on to territory that is not recognized as part of it’s state by the international community, there is little international law can actually do about it on behalf of the residents of that territory and their national ambitions if that state is powerful enough to say “no”. (Examples Israel/Palestine and China/Taiwan).

 

[Coyote]

That is so interesting (said authentically, not sarcastically). I think it is the opposite. Gaza is easy. Judea and Samaria is complicated.

Curious…why so?

 

[Lisa558]

Really?

Maybe you do.

I sure haven’t seen much of it.

But then again, I have condemned Hamas’ atrocities and done so over many years, that includes any terrorist attacks targeting civilians, period. My stand on this has been consistent for years but I doubt you would notice nor do I need to justify myself to you.

The terrorist attack intentionally targeting civilians was done by the Muslim terrorists. The Jewish government do not target civilians as part of their war strategy.

No moral equivalence.

 

[Shusha]

I think (and it is cynical) that this also illustrates the limits of international law.

Yep. 100.

If a state really wants a territory that isn’t currently part of it, it can manufacture reasons to create a conflict and take it by force, and assuming it is powerful enough, there is little the international community can do.

I'm not convinced that is true. Example (post-WWII) of a state which took part of another state's territory by force and has had that recognized and accepted by other states?

 

[Shusha]

In a similar way, if a state is holding on to territory that is not recognized as part of it’s state by the international community,

It doesn't work that way. Territory is transferred through legal pathways, not by "recognition". Recognition is irrelevant with respect to territorial integrity.

there is little international law can actually do about it on behalf of the residents of that territory and their national ambitions if that state is powerful enough to say “no”.

Yes. This is what I mean when I say territorial integrity of a State has more weight in international law than self-determination. You can't force a State to give up territory. Even if the people of that territory want to secede from the State. The State has to agree. But it is a contentious point of international law that has yet to be resolved.

 

[Coyote]

How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes​

Uh huh.

Yup. My thought too given the scarcity of your condemnations. I’m glad we are on the same page here in how we regard each other.

Numbers​

The main criticisms I’ve read about the Gaza Health Ministry figures (and this is just what I remember without actually going to the sources) are that some of the numbers (male to female ratios) changed once bodies were actually ID’d and that the nature of the conflict and level of wholesale destruction made it extremely difficult to maintain accurate figures. In addition, the figures provided were quite likely an undercount given that there are many bodies still buried in rubble that can’t be retrieved.

A recent analysis of verified victims (ID’d presumably) over a 6 month period found 70% of them to be women and children. That isn’t much different than the Gaza health ministry.

Israel is trying to make the claim that tbe combatant to civilian ratio is closer to 1:1 but that does not hold up under examination: Civilian casualties in Gaza: Israel’s claims don’t add up - AOAV

At this point, it would seem the Gaza Health Ministry figures are relatively accurate (as accurate as anything can be under those conditions) and that is coming from more than one source.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Really?

Maybe you do.

I sure haven’t seen much of it.

But then again, I have condemned Hamas’ atrocities and done so over many years, that includes any terrorist attacks targeting civilians, period. My stand on this has been consistent for years but I doubt you would notice nor do I need to justify myself to you.

Really? You routinely condemn all Israelis for the criminal actions of a few, despite the fact these criminals are arrested and prosecuted, but you claim Palestinians have no responsibility for any of Hamas' atrocities, despite the fact the Palestinians celebrate these atrocities.

You even argue that the Palestinians' relentless efforts to kill Jews should be no obstacle to giving them a state. You claim to be opposed to Hamas atrocities but then claim these atrocities are completely irrelevant. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[Shusha]

Curious…why so?

Gaza already has a defined territory and a complete segregation of population. Gaza did (until recently cough) have a government. Israel has already formally ceded that territory. Generally, Israelis have no cultural interest in Gaza. There are no contentious concerns with holy sites. Limited security concerns with respect to territory. Abundant resources and an obvious path to a workable economy.

Judea and Samaria are deeply relevant to Israelis as a matter of culture and history. Holy sites. No easily defined border. Arabs and Israelis living in close proximity in "mixed" territory. Security concerns. Jerusalem. Jordan Valley. Way, way more complicated.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I wonder what the children of Gaza felt when they were surrounded by the blown up body parts of their families. No one to cover their eyes or safe place to bring them to.

Hopefully they will feel disappointed in their parents for putting them in this position.

 

[Shusha]

Yup. My thought too given the scarcity of your condemnations. I’m glad we are on the same page here in how we regard each other.




The main criticisms I’ve read about the Gaza Health Ministry figures (and this is just what I remember without actually going to the sources) are that some of the numbers (male to female ratios) changed once bodies were actually ID’d and that the nature of the conflict and level of wholesale destruction made it extremely difficult to maintain accurate figures. In addition, the figures provided were quite likely an undercount given that there are many bodies still buried in rubble that can’t be retrieved.

A recent analysis of verified victims (ID’d presumably) over a 6 month period found 70% of them to be women and children. That isn’t much different than the Gaza health ministry.

Israel is trying to make the claim that tbe combatant to civilian ratio is closer to 1:1 but that does not hold up under examination: Civilian casualties in Gaza: Israel’s claims don’t add up - AOAV

At this point, it would seem the Gaza Health Ministry figures are relatively accurate (as accurate as anything can be under those conditions) and that is coming from more than one source.

That recent analysis only examined some of the fatalities and there are reasons of data collection that would lead one to understand that these percentages can't be applied over the whole. Hang on. I read an article on this a while ago. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[Coyote]

Yep. 100.

I'm not convinced that is true. Example (post-WWII) of a state which took part of another state's territory by force and has had that recognized and accepted by other states?

One example would be Russia and Crimea. There are a number of countries that recognize Crimea as part of Russia.

 

[Coyote]

Hopefully they will feel disappointed in their parents for putting them in this position.

You are disgusting. No surprise you would view it that way. Do you say that about the parents of Israeli children living in the occupied territories when a terrorist bombs them? Do you blame tbe parents for putting them in that situation?

Of course you don’t. That would require applying consistent standards.

 

[Lisa558]

You are disgusting. No surprise you would view it that way. Do you say that about the parents of Israeli children living in the occupied territories when a terrorist bombs them? Do you blame tbe parents for putting them in that situation?

Of course you don’t. That would require applying consistent standards.

There are no occupied territories.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't work that way. Territory is transferred through legal pathways, not by "recognition". Recognition is irrelevant with respect to territorial integrity.

Yes. This is what I mean when I say territorial integrity of a State has more weight in international law than self-determination. You can't force a State to give up territory. Even if the people of that territory want to secede from the State. The State has to agree. But it is a contentious point of international law that has yet to be resolved.

So how does that work with Israel’s occupied territories? They are not Israel’s territory and their peop,e want self determination. Israel is not being asked to give up any of its territory (and no, I don’t agree that those are part Israel’s territory proper).

This actually just made me realize something. In a prior question, you asked for examples of a state that had taken territory by force since WW2 and then had it recognized by other states and I listed Crimea as an example, but another example would also be Israel and the Golan Heights.

 

[Coyote]

There are no occupied territories.

Tell that to the Israeli High Court.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So how does that work with Israel’s occupied territories? They are not Israel’s territory and their peop,e want self determination. Israel is not being asked to give up any of its territory (and no, I don’t agree that those are part Israel’s territory proper).

This actually just made me realize something. In a prior question, you asked for examples of a state that had taken territory by force since WW2 and then had it recognized by other states and I listed Crimea as an example, but another example would also be Israel and the Golan Heights.

So how does that work with Israel’s occupied territories? They are not Israel’s territory

Who owned the territory?

 

[Coyote]

So how does that work with Israel’s occupied territories? They are not Israel’s territory

Who owned the territory?

Why has Israel referred to it as occupied territory?

Why is the native population (non-Israeli citizen) under military law instead of Israeli civil law then?

Why does the Israeli High Court refer to it as occupied territory?

Why does international law consider it occupied territory?

 

[Shusha]

So how does that work with Israel’s occupied territories?

There are no occupied territories.

They are not Israel’s territory

They are Israel's sovereign territory.

and their peop,e want self determination.

And Israel is willing to cede territory under appropriate conditions.

Israel is not being asked to give up any of its territory

Of course it is.

(and no, I don’t agree that those are part Israel’s territory proper).

Yes, I know you don't agree. But there is no legal basis for your belief. If you have a legal basis for the division of the Mandate for Palestine into two separate sovereign territories, please simply name the treaty which outlines the boundaries of each.

This actually just made me realize something. In a prior question, you asked for examples of a state that had taken territory by force since WW2 and then had it recognized by other states and I listed Crimea as an example, but another example would also be Israel and the Golan Heights.

Crimea had a referendum, did it not? (I am in NO way an expert on Russia/Ukraine!)

The Golan Heights is legally part of Syria. You will get no argument from me on that point. Though I do accept the reasons why Israel has to hold that territory and I believe it can be justified under current conditions.

 

[Coyote]

There are no occupied territories.

They are Israel's sovereign territory.

Totally disagree there.

And Israel is willing to cede territory under appropriate conditions.

Of course it is.

Yes, I know you don't agree. But there is no legal basis for your belief. If you have a legal basis for the division of the Mandate for Palestine into two separate sovereign territories, please simply name the treaty which outlines the boundaries of each.

I think I will end up completely derailing this thread even further if that is possible, if I pursue this but I recall RoccoR argued this somewhere here. We won’t agree on this

Crimea had a referendum, did it not? (I am in NO way an expert on Russia/Ukraine!)

The Golan Heights is legally part of Syria. You will get no argument from me on that point. Though I do accept the reasons why Israel has to hold that territory and I believe it can be justified under current conditions.

But, the US recognized Golan Heights as part of Israel under Trump…

I think Crimea’s “referendum” was a bit like the Russian Election jokes:

One of Putin's ministers come to see him.​

"Sir, I have good news and bad news."​

Putin sighed and said, "tell me the bad news."​

"The bad news is that no-one voted for you in the election."​

Putin stood, his face flushed with anger. "Well, what's the good news?"​

The minister cowered before answering, "you won anyway!"​