Hamas Leader Killed

[Shusha]

It should be but the REALITY is it isn’t and never has been a requirement for recognition.

It is. The State must make a declaration to abide by the obligations of the UN. The UN Security Council has to sign off before a new State is presented for vote into the UN at the GA. (Nine affirmative votes and no veto from the permanent members).

Is there a country which was actively belligerent towards another State which was admitted to the UN anyway?

It was also not required of Israel.

It was. Israel was not accepted into the UN until after she signed Armistice Agreements with Egypt and Jordan.

There have been multiple instances where Palestinians have agreed in principle with a two state solution without dismantling Israel and the remaining arguments are territorial or “right of return”. Likewise there are many recognized states at war with their neighbors who remain recognized. I think holding recognition based on this requirement is a device to draw out the process until logistically, it becomes impossible. Give them a state, something they can build or lose, hold them to the same requirements of any other state. Currently, this requirement is a double standard.

The remaining arguments must be solved before Palestine can be a State.

 

[Shusha]

Numerous states exist with contested territories, so mutual recognition dependent on complete peace is a not consistent requirement for statehood.

I do not believe this to be true, neither on a factual nor legal basis. But recognize I might be wrong, as I am not an expert on every country in the world. Can you give an example of a State which came into existence without having a defined territory? (Leaving aside Israel and Palestine for the moment).

 

[Shusha]

Gaza seperate from the West Bank then?

Yes. That is a current "facts on the ground" reality. The two populations share certain ideologies, but their realities and their politics are vastly different. Why not a four-state solution? (Israel, Jordan, Gaza, Palestine). And if, in the future, Gaza and Palestine want to form some sort of united alliance or merge into one country, whose to stop them?

Relating to Gaza, it is clearly not working.

It is very clearly not working to achieve Gaza's independence and statehood. So why are they continuing to perpetrate violence on Israel?

States can form out of separatist movements but they can also form out irreconcilable conflict and violence (examples that come to mind are North and South Sudan, Serbia/Bosnia). In none of those cases did they have to achieve that standard first, but they should be HELD to that standard once they have a state.

I'm not sure that is true. Sudan and South Sudan had a civil war, then a peace treaty with autonomy, then a referendum for secession, then independence and Statehood.

Gaza and Palestine should be at step 3 of that 4-step process. The civil war should be over. Move on to the peace process. Continued violence is not going to settle the questions of territory and return.

 

[daveman]

It’s only “a few” members of IDF torturing and raping detainees. It’s only a few settlers killing Palestinians. It’s only a few using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Hell, it’s Palestinians…what is wrong with that!

…. wait….THAT’s different. Go figure. Double standards are so messy aren’t they?

They are. That's why I try to avoid them.

The difference between us I condemn atrocities no matter who commits them. You can't seem to be bothered to condemn Hamas' war crimes.

 

[daveman]

Horse shit is right. You. Lie.

I have unequivocally and consistently opposed terrorism and the targeting of civilians for any reason and my posting history shows this.

You? I have no idea what you support and no longer care. If you can’t be honest, you are no longer worth the time.

If you're being honest right now, I apologize. I haven't seen your condemnations, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[daveman]

Because…..

1) antisemitic leftists have MADE it about Jews. I don’t hear any of you marching around campus yelling Death to Muslims or assaulting Muslims on campus as a result of the Israel-Hamas war.

2) the reason Israel is singled out for condemnation is BECAUSE it is a Jewish-majority country.

Also, because Hamas, Hezbollah, and other Muslim extremists justify their actions with the tenets of Islam.

 

[Lisa558]

If you're being honest right now, I apologize. I haven't seen your condemnations, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

The difference is that the Jewish government does not target innocent civilians, while the leaders of the Muslims in Gaza specifically HUNT for innocent civilians in order to torture them to death, often being forced to watch their babies being burned or cooked alive, before they themselves get slaughtered.

Coyote cannot discern the difference.

 

[daveman]

If you're being honest right now, I apologize. I haven't seen your condemnations, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

But I have to add that you seem to take Hamas' press releases at face value, despite having been proven to be liars time and again.

 

[Lisa558]

P.S. I spoke to an IDF soldier who had to cover the eyes of the children he rescued from safe rooms so they wouldn’t see the dismembered body parts, including heads, strewn about the garden.

 

[Coyote]

It is. The State must make a declaration to abide by the obligations of the UN. The UN Security Council has to sign off before a new State is presented for vote into the UN at the GA. (Nine affirmative votes and no veto from the permanent members).

Interesting, though it is problematic that a permanent member can veto it even if there is clear majority support. That adds a political dimension to statehood. Also, this a requirement for UN recognition of statehood, not statehood itself isn’t it!

Is there a country which was actively belligerent towards another State which was admitted to the UN anyway?

Actively belligerent or unresolved conflicts involving both? I actually don’t know if any have been.

It was. Israel was not accepted into the UN until after she signed Armistice Agreements with Egypt and Jordan.

The remaining arguments must be solved before Palestine can be a State.

What if the state does not wish to resolve those conflicts with the would be state?

 

[Coyote]

P.S. I spoke to an IDF soldier who had to cover the eyes of the children he rescued from safe rooms so they wouldn’t see the dismembered body parts, including heads, strewn about the garden.

I wonder what the children of Gaza felt when they were surrounded by the blown up body parts of their families. No one to cover their eyes or safe place to bring them to.

 

[Coyote]

But I have to add that you seem to take Hamas' press releases at face value, despite having been proven to be liars time and again.

Actually, I’m pretty skeptical in what comes from Hamas itself. However, the Gaza Health Ministry has a good methodology and reputation for accuracy … good enough for Israel to use. They do not differentiate between combatants and non-combatants but that is openly stated.

So if you are claiming I take Hamas “press releases” at “face value” (or any value) you are again lying.

 

[Coyote]

The difference is that the Jewish government does not target innocent civilians, while the leaders of the Muslims in Gaza specifically HUNT for innocent civilians in order to torture them to death, often being forced to watch their babies being burned or cooked alive, before they themselves get slaughtered.

Coyote cannot discern the difference.

There you go…”Muslims” again. Not Hamas…”the Muslims in Gaza”.

 

[Coyote]

They are. That's why I try to avoid them.

The difference between us I condemn atrocities no matter who commits them. You can't seem to be bothered to condemn Hamas' war crimes.

Really?

Maybe you do.

I sure haven’t seen much of it.

But then again, I have condemned Hamas’ atrocities and done so over many years, that includes any terrorist attacks targeting civilians, period. My stand on this has been consistent for years but I doubt you would notice nor do I need to justify myself to you.

 

[Shusha]

What if the state does not wish to resolve those conflicts with the would be state?

Well, and that is where things get legally interesting. It is not yet resolved, in international law, whether self-determination or whether territorial integrity of existing States takes precedence. So far, territorial integrity seems to be have a slight edge, as in: you can not force a State to give up sovereign territory in order to make room for self-determination.

 

[Shusha]

Interesting, though it is problematic that a permanent member can veto it even if there is clear majority support. That adds a political dimension to statehood. Also, this a requirement for UN recognition of statehood, not statehood itself isn’t it!

Correct. This is UN membership, not statehood. For statehood you need: a territory, a population, a government, and ability to interact with other states.

 

[Coyote]

Yes. That is a current "facts on the ground" reality. The two populations share certain ideologies, but their realities and their politics are vastly different. Why not a four-state solution? (Israel, Jordan, Gaza, Palestine). And if, in the future, Gaza and Palestine want to form some sort of united alliance or merge into one country, who’s to stop them?

Always possible, I think we’ve even discussed something along that line before.

It is very clearly not working to achieve Gaza's independence and statehood. So why are they continuing to perpetrate violence on Israel?

Hamas is extremist group with an ambition that goes beyond achieving a nation or independence. Achieving national autonomy might be in the Palestinian interest but I don’t think it is Hamas’ goal which is to create a larger regional conflict.

I'm not sure that is true. Sudan and South Sudan had a civil war, then a peace treaty with autonomy, then a referendum for secession, then independence and Statehood.

Ah, ok.

Gaza and Palestine should be at step 3 of that 4-step process. The civil war should be over. Move on to the peace process. Continued violence is not going to settle the questions of territory and return.

Gaza is complicated.

What about West Bank?

 

[daveman]

Actually, I’m pretty skeptical in what comes from Hamas itself. However, the Gaza Health Ministry has a good methodology and reputation for accuracy … good enough for Israel to use. They do not differentiate between combatants and non-combatants but that is openly stated.

So if you are claiming I take Hamas “press releases” at “face value” (or any value) you are again lying.

How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers​

 

[daveman]

Really?

Maybe you do.

I sure haven’t seen much of it.

But then again, I have condemned Hamas’ atrocities and done so over many years, that includes any terrorist attacks targeting civilians, period. My stand on this has been consistent for years but I doubt you would notice nor do I need to justify myself to you.

Uh huh.

 

[Shusha]

Gaza is complicated.

What about West Bank?

That is so interesting (said authentically, not sarcastically). I think it is the opposite. Gaza is easy. Judea and Samaria is complicated.