Haditha. Not the first. Won't be the last

[Psychoblues]

Young soldiers kill people for a living. They are encouraged by their higher ranking officers. They kill for self protection, for the name of some high minded military objective, they kill for each other, some even kill for sport. Let the courts work all this out?

Young soldiers kill as ordered. Otherwise they fear they may not reach old age. Young soldiers kill and many kill again. Most don't know why, some just like killing. Either way, killing on the battlefield of a war justified or not is just battlefield killing to them.

Young soldiers die young. They may live on physically for decades. They may spiritually die quite young. There is no confidence in the questions of WARTIME KILLING. Either way, the American populace demonstrates over and over again, WAR VETERANS are not veterans at all unless they are dead. Many are, one way or another.


Psychoblues


Psychoblues

 

[CSM]

Young soldiers kill people for a living. They are encouraged by their higher ranking officers. They kill for self protection, for the name of some high minded military objective, they kill for each other, some even kill for sport. Let the courts work all this out?

Young soldiers kill as ordered. Otherwise they fear they may not reach old age. Young soldiers kill and many kill again. Most don't know why, some just like killing. Either way, killing on the battlefield of a war justified or not is just battlefield killing to them.

Young soldiers die young. They may live on physically for decades. They may spiritually die quite young. There is no confidence in the questions of WARTIME KILLING. Either way, the American populace demonstrates over and over again, WAR VETERANS are not veterans at all unless they are dead. Many are, one way or another.


Psychoblues


Psychoblues

I am really trying to make sense of this post. Despite the generalities, I think I see what you are trying to say. Yes, war is a horrible thing and yes some pay a horrible price and yes, sometimes it appears that citizens of this country are unappreciative of service members contributions (alive or dead).

 

[Mariner]

been an army in history that committed no war crimes. The excellent book "Achilles in Vietnam" analyzes the "berserk" state, and old English word that captures the loss of moorings that can lead to very courageous behavior at times, and very wrong behavior at other times, weaving Vietnam Vets' stories with the Iliad.

Unfortunately, in our current war, our current official justification for being there is a moral one--to bring peace and democracy to a country after removing its dictator from power. Hence the moral aspects of our actions as warriors are much more important than in the average war; it's paramount that we project moral authority.

Hence the severe damage that Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Bagram (in Afghanistan, where we tortured at least two entirely innocent men to death), and Guantanamo (which even high-ranking military officers are now saying should be closed) to our reputation and purpose.

Mariner.

 

[GotZoom]

Young soldiers kill people for a living. They are encouraged by their higher ranking officers. They kill for self protection, for the name of some high minded military objective, they kill for each other, some even kill for sport. Let the courts work all this out?

Young soldiers kill as ordered. Otherwise they fear they may not reach old age. Young soldiers kill and many kill again. Most don't know why, some just like killing. Either way, killing on the battlefield of a war justified or not is just battlefield killing to them.

Young soldiers die young. They may live on physically for decades. They may spiritually die quite young. There is no confidence in the questions of WARTIME KILLING. Either way, the American populace demonstrates over and over again, WAR VETERANS are not veterans at all unless they are dead. Many are, one way or another.


Psychoblues


Psychoblues

One day you might post something that actually demonstrates that you know what you are talking about.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

been an army in history that committed no war crimes. The excellent book "Achilles in Vietnam" analyzes the "berserk" state, and old English word that captures the loss of moorings that can lead to very courageous behavior at times, and very wrong behavior at other times, weaving Vietnam Vets' stories with the Iliad.

Unfortunately, in our current war, our current official justification for being there is a moral one--to bring peace and democracy to a country after removing its dictator from power. Hence the moral aspects of our actions as warriors are much more important than in the average war; it's paramount that we project moral authority.

Hence the severe damage that Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Bagram (in Afghanistan, where we tortured at least two entirely innocent men to death), and Guantanamo (which even high-ranking military officers are now saying should be closed) to our reputation and purpose.

Mariner.

Severe damage? Everyone knows abu graib is farce. Thinking this is doing SEVERE DAMAGE to our image is just liberal wishful thinking.

 

[dmp]

I'm not dead. I promise.

 

[nukeman]

Severe damage? Everyone knows abu graib is farce. Thinking this is doing SEVERE DAMAGE to our image is just liberal wishful thinking.

Unfortunately we can see through the deception and know for a fact what is real. When you have other countries that only hear the bad of the US and how evil we are than I have to say that yes this can be severe damage to our image.. Is it justified damage?? Hell no.... It only takes one incident of bad to overwhelm a year of good.. \

Look at it this way if something good happens to you, you will tell maybe 5 people but if something bad happens you will tell everyone that listens. So any bad press in the international environment is bad for the US.

It is a shame that we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.. What our government needs to start telling these outraged countries is

1. Look in the mirror.
2. Get over it
3. GO FUCK YOURSELF:dev1:
4 Try and handle all the evil in the world without the US...

 

[Mariner]

Can you explain what you mean that Abu Ghraib is a farce and that other countries should "just get over it"?

If we're good, we're good because our actions are good. Are you arguing that we did nothing wrong at Abu Ghraib, or that other should be able to read our minds and see that we are "good" despite our actions to the contrary?

Or are you arguing that our actions at Abu Ghraib are so small compared to all the good we do that they should just be ignored?

If Americans were the victims of similar treatment by any other countryor entity in the world, would you be similarly forgiving? If your relatives were victims of such behavior, would you say, "oh, that was just a farce," or "get over it"? I very much doubt it.

IN any case, you must know you're in a pretty small minority in your opinions--the vast majority of Americans, including military people and political leaders of both parties, have condemned Abu Ghraib and acknowledged that it stained our reputation permanently and did untold damage to the moral underpinnings of our occupation of Iraq.

Mariner.

 

[5stringJeff]

Severe damage? Everyone knows abu graib is farce. Thinking this is doing SEVERE DAMAGE to our image is just liberal wishful thinking.

The Jews did it, right?

 

[Annie]

Can you explain what you mean that Abu Ghraib is a farce and that other countries should "just get over it"?

I wouldn't call it a 'farce', but not atrocities either. Too much was made of the incidents, those that perpetrated them should be and were punished. Of course with what the media did, other than chopping off their heads, no punishment would have been enough.

If we're good, we're good because our actions are good. Are you arguing that we did nothing wrong at Abu Ghraib, or that other should be able to read our minds and see that we are "good" despite our actions to the contrary?

'We' or even 'our military' did not perform those acts. A few people that never should have been working in a prison; several had already been disciplined in civilian jails for similar misdeeds; were the ones who did those acts. If blame should be shared with 'higher ups' it's that those abuses of earlier instances were not noted and the people removed from those positions.

Or are you arguing that our actions at Abu Ghraib are so small compared to all the good we do that they should just be ignored?

If Americans were the victims of similar treatment by any other countryor entity in the world, would you be similarly forgiving? If your relatives were victims of such behavior, would you say, "oh, that was just a farce," or "get over it"? I very much doubt it.

We have been and we did 'get over it' with punishments meted out.

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html

IN any case, you must know you're in a pretty small minority in your opinions--the vast majority of Americans, including military people and political leaders of both parties, have condemned Abu Ghraib and acknowledged that it stained our reputation permanently and did untold damage to the moral underpinnings of our occupation of Iraq.

Mariner.

As I said, there is no quibbling that they deserved punishment, especially those that used dogs, but too much was made of it, with blanket condemnation of the military.

 

[dilloduck]

been an army in history that committed no war crimes. The excellent book "Achilles in Vietnam" analyzes the "berserk" state, and old English word that captures the loss of moorings that can lead to very courageous behavior at times, and very wrong behavior at other times, weaving Vietnam Vets' stories with the Iliad.

Unfortunately, in our current war, our current official justification for being there is a moral one--to bring peace and democracy to a country after removing its dictator from power. Hence the moral aspects of our actions as warriors are much more important than in the average war; it's paramount that we project moral authority.

Hence the severe damage that Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Bagram (in Afghanistan, where we tortured at least two entirely innocent men to death), and Guantanamo (which even high-ranking military officers are now saying should be closed) to our reputation and purpose.

Mariner.

The reputation of America as a country will always suck around the world. Trying to act in a manner that will make anyone like it is truly insane.

 

[Gunny]

Young soldiers kill people for a living. They are encouraged by their higher ranking officers. They kill for self protection, for the name of some high minded military objective, they kill for each other, some even kill for sport. Let the courts work all this out?

Young soldiers kill as ordered. Otherwise they fear they may not reach old age. Young soldiers kill and many kill again. Most don't know why, some just like killing. Either way, killing on the battlefield of a war justified or not is just battlefield killing to them.

Young soldiers die young. They may live on physically for decades. They may spiritually die quite young. There is no confidence in the questions of WARTIME KILLING. Either way, the American populace demonstrates over and over again, WAR VETERANS are not veterans at all unless they are dead. Many are, one way or another.


Psychoblues


Psychoblues

Pure fucking hogwash. The same percentage of criminals exist within the military as do without. Which, represents about the same 10 percent who commit war crimes.

Nothing excuses war crimes nor the criminals; however, they DO NOT represent the military as a whole. They just get more media attention from bleeding heart liberal morons such as yourself who attempt to paint a one-sided, villifying picture of something you don't know a damned thing about.

I have seen with my own eyes FAR MORE commit completely selfless acts of kindness, and or go to the aid of a buddy at a risk to their own lives.

If you were what you continually claim to be, you would KNOW that.

 

[Psychoblues]

I do know that, GunnyL. But, you have a problem I can't fix. You are either ignorant or stupid. I can help educate you but I can't do a damn thing about your stupidity.

Psychoblues

Pure fucking hogwash. The same percentage of criminals exist within the military as do without. Which, represents about the same 10 percent who commit war crimes.

Nothing excuses war crimes nor the criminals; however, they DO NOT represent the military as a whole. They just get more media attention from bleeding heart liberal morons such as yourself who attempt to paint a one-sided, villifying picture of something you don't know a damned thing about.

I have seen with my own eyes FAR MORE commit completely selfless acts of kindness, and or go to the aid of a buddy at a risk to their own lives.

If you were what you continually claim to be, you would KNOW that.

 

[Gunny]

I do know that, GunnyL. But, you have a problem I can't fix. You are either ignorant or stupid. I can help educate you but I can't do a damn thing about your stupidity.

Psychoblues

Your response speaks for itself. Nonsensical and irrelvevant to any REAL facts.

Go back to your porn site. At least they all like you THERE.

 

[Psychoblues]

American GI's are expected tp perform. This is instilled in every operation (regardless of law or political implication) that they perform. They perform admiribly when they simply follow orders. This is no excuse for murder but it does implicate loyalty towards a command or order given them.

Perhaps the insisting of the PTB (Powers That Be) to resist such immoral and flagrant violation of international and humanistic rights was exactly encouraged?

I've been in WAR. Killing is no stranger to me. Is there somewhere lurking a judicial advocate that is intent upon prosecuting ME for my actions while in uniform?

The soldiers must answer for themselves with the understqanding that they performed as ordered or at least demonstrated.

GunnyL, I thinketh you an abomination with great hopes your ideology is rejected and that you are not representative of our present military.


Psychoblues

Your response speaks for itself. Nonsensical and irrelvevant to any REAL facts.

Go back to your porn site. At least they all like you THERE.

 

[Annie]

American GI's are expected tp perform. This is instilled in every operation (regardless of law or political implication) that they perform. They perform admiribly when they simply follow orders. This is no excuse for murder but it does implicate loyalty towards a command or order given them.

Perhaps the insisting of the PTB (Powers That Be) to resist such immoral and flagrant violation of international and humanistic rights was exactly encouraged?

I've been in WAR. Killing is no stranger to me. Is there somewhere lurking a judicial advocate that is intent upon prosecuting ME for my actions while in uniform?

The soldiers must answer for themselves with the understqanding that they performed as ordered or at least demonstrated.

GunnyL, I thinketh you an abomination with great hopes your ideology is rejected and that you are not representative of our present military.


Psychoblues

The Haditha 'atrocities' appear to be not. Haven't you been reading today? You did see the TIME correction a couple days ago?

 

[Psychoblues]

Not the first, won't be the last?

The further atrosities of WAR will be forthcoming. I am ashamed the WAR itself is illegal and not indicative of true American objectives or values. I continue to be dissappointed that American values lose credibility due to political buying power and general American lack of truth and education.


Psychoblues

 

[musicman]

Unfortunately, in our current war, our current official justification for being there is a moral one--to bring peace and democracy to a country after removing its dictator from power.

Is it?

Consider, for a moment, the glorious possibility that "our current war" involves a hell of a lot more than Iraq; that an American Chief Executive has deemed Iraq a wise strategic point from which to begin actually participating in a war that was declared on Western Civilization over twenty-five years ago; that "our current political justification" is the survival of the freedoms you now - so casually - enjoy.

Consider, further, that he is accomplishing this over the nonstop, hysterical shrieking of an opposition party (and its press lapdogs) who have demonstrated that they are essentially the enemies of America; that their quest for power is so all-consuming, they couldn't give a flying shit for American servicemen, American interests, or America's well-being.

Add to that the hostility of a vicious, ungrateful world (particularly Europe - where the strategy for dealing with bad people remains, "roll over and show them a good time; maybe then, they'll go away. Seems to be working as well for them as it did in the 1930s, too). Are you beginning to get the idea that there's something a bit larger going on than what's shown in the gleefully negative MSM/DNC tidbits you consume so eagerly? Thought not.

 

[musicman]

The Haditha 'atrocities' appear to be not. Haven't you been reading today? You did see the TIME correction a couple days ago?

Did you see the Headline of this thread?
Not the first, won't be the last?

The further atrosities of WAR will be forthcoming. I am ashamed the WAR itself is illegal and not indicative of true American objectives or values. I continue to be dissappointed that American values lose credibility due to political buying power and general American lack of truth and education.

I guess that's a "no, I didn't see the TIME correction", Kathianne!

 

[CSM]

American GI's are expected tp perform. This is instilled in every operation (regardless of law or political implication) that they perform. They perform admiribly when they simply follow orders. This is no excuse for murder but it does implicate loyalty towards a command or order given them.

Perhaps the insisting of the PTB (Powers That Be) to resist such immoral and flagrant violation of international and humanistic rights was exactly encouraged?

I've been in WAR. Killing is no stranger to me. Is there somewhere lurking a judicial advocate that is intent upon prosecuting ME for my actions while in uniform?

The soldiers must answer for themselves with the understqanding that they performed as ordered or at least demonstrated.

GunnyL, I thinketh you an abomination with great hopes your ideology is rejected and that you are not representative of our present military.


Psychoblues

I have been to war too....so what? Who the hell are you to judge anyone? I suspect that your "war" is more in your own mind than anyplace else.