CDZ Gun deaths in all states per capita

[Vagabond63]

And who exactly defines what "good reason" is?

If I say because it's a handy tool is that "good reason"?

If I say because I want to carry it. Is that "good reason"?

You people like being treated like children

See post #1,111
As for being treated like children, We're not the ones throwing tantrums because someone wants to make us register the fact that we have a favourite toy, sorry gun.

 

[Captain Caveman]

It doesn't do nothing......it it the inch the anti-gunners will use to take a mile as they now use the police to target normal gun owners......the Red Flag law opening was the goal....if they could get the AR-15 too, that would have been icing on the cake..but the wiggle room for their legal warfare teams to go after normal people is a huge win for them.

The basis of your argument is that you expect instant results or it's flawed, hence my signature. As more Americans want safety v guns, overtime, more steps will happen until the Achilles Heal is removed, the 2nd Amendment, and then future steps will reduce gun incidents further. We will be all dead and gone by then because it's a long process.

You need to get away from this binary thinking.

 

[Blues Man]

See post #1,111
As for being treated like children, We're not the ones throwing tantrums because someone wants to make us register the fact that we have a favourite toy, sorry gun.

But then again you like being told what you "need" by the government.

You will never understand Americans and their attitudes that the government is there to serve them not the other way around.

 

[Open Bolt]

Unfortunately pal, it's out of your control, and as you can see from my Freedom and Liberties thread, your idea that guns means freedom is a fallacy, but you will keep peddling fallacies.

That is incorrect. Facts and history are not fallacies.

It is a historical fact that keeping and bearing arms is a key right of free people.

The reason it's out of your control, is that massacres don't pander to your whims, and as it takes decades, even a century or two, you will be long gone with your old cranky gun fetishes that's harming America.

Future generations of American will love freedom too.

As more Americans want safety v guns, overtime, more steps will happen until the Achilles Heal is removed, the 2nd Amendment, and then future steps will reduce gun incidents further. We will be all dead and gone by then because it's a long process.

That's a pretty horrible fantasy that you have about the future.

Luckily it is only a fantasy. Our Second Amendment is going to last until the end of time itself.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

As for being treated like children, We're not the ones throwing tantrums because someone wants to make us register the fact that we have a favourite toy, sorry gun.

What good does registration do?

 

[Captain Caveman]

That is incorrect. Facts and history are not fallacies.

It is a historical fact that keeping and bearing arms is a key right of free people.



Future generations of American will love freedom too.



That's a pretty horrible fantasy that you have about the future.

Luckily it is only a fantasy. Our Second Amendment is going to last until the end of time itself.

Unfortunately, your interpretation of freedom is your opinion, the vast majority of the planet thinks otherwise. So you need to understand that.

The second thing you need to understand is that society's customs, the culture, the borders, the laws etc.. don't remain static to your will, they change and it creates history as those elements I spoke about evolve. And unfortunately for you, they won't evolve to your liken.

So trying to abruptly claim that America is going to comply with a snap shot of your own beliefs and wants, a continue like that forever and a day, is very naive and funny of you. If a kid said it, you would say, "Aww, isn't that cute".

 

[2aguy]

The basis of your argument is that you expect instant results or it's flawed, hence my signature. As more Americans want safety v guns, overtime, more steps will happen until the Achilles Heal is removed, the 2nd Amendment, and then future steps will reduce gun incidents further. We will be all dead and gone by then because it's a long process.

You need to get away from this binary thinking.

No.....it won't result in results no matter how long they are in place...

Americans use their guns to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings and mass public shootings.....they are also seen as a way to prevent the democrat party brown shirts, blm, and antifa, from burning and looting your businesses and homes, and from murdering you and your family....this is why more and more blacks, hispanics and women are buying and carrying guns in record numbers...

You don't understand the issues...

 

[2aguy]

Unfortunately, your interpretation of freedom is your opinion, the vast majority of the planet thinks otherwise. So you need to understand that.

The second thing you need to understand is that society's customs, the culture, the borders, the laws etc.. don't remain static to your will, they change and it creates history as those elements I spoke about evolve. And unfortunately for you, they won't evolve to your liken.

So trying to abruptly claim that America is going to comply with a snap shot of your own beliefs and wants, a continue like that forever and a day, is very naive and funny of you. If a kid said it, you would say, "Aww, isn't that cute".

The second thing you need to understand is that society's customs, the culture, the borders, the laws etc.. don't remain static

You just described Europe and the influx of violent, 3rd world males who have now taken over the drug trade from Britain to Sweden.........and they don't care about western culture, values, traditions or laws, and they don't respect your police....

As they fight over drug turf, they are going to need guns.....and you won't be able to stop the flood..

 

[Open Bolt]

Unfortunately, your interpretation of freedom is your opinion,

That is incorrect. It has been a historical fact for thousands of years.

the vast majority of the planet thinks otherwise. So you need to understand that.

I doubt that is true. But to the extent that it is true, those people are wrong.

The second thing you need to understand is that society's customs, the culture, the borders, the laws etc.. don't remain static to your will, they change and it creates history as those elements I spoke about evolve. And unfortunately for you, they won't evolve to your liken.

That is incorrect. Americans have always cherished freedom, and Americans will continue to do so until the end of time.

And we aren't the only ones. There is a stretch of countries from Finland to Switzerland who also will continue to demand their freedom.

So trying to abruptly claim that America is going to comply with a snap shot of your own beliefs and wants, a continue like that forever and a day, is very naive and funny of you. If a kid said it, you would say, "Aww, isn't that cute".

That is incorrect. I have a very sound sense of America's attitudes. We will cherish the Second Amendment forever.

 

[Captain Caveman]

What good does registration do?

Helps police investigations. If a firearm type is identified, police can check those registered in a certain area of their alibi's because they own the same type of weapon. A found weapon's serial number will be on the registration and so on and so on.

Being registered means you've gone through a thorough back ground check; police record check, driving licence check, doctors check, and your supplied referees checked. It also means you can go on a relevent course when you register. It also means police know who to periodically check that gun cabinets are installed and secure when you renew the licence. There's no doubt many reasons, those are off the top of my head.

It may seem alien to Americans, but any change can be. People threw rubbish in the bin at home, and when the council gave everyone recycling bins, many whinged like gun nuts. As time went on, it's now a weird feeling if you put a recyclable item in general waste.

 

[2aguy]

Helps police investigations. If a firearm type is identified, police can check those registered in a certain area of their alibi's because they own the same type of weapon. A found weapon's serial number will be on the registration and so on and so on.

Being registered means you've gone through a thorough back ground check; police record check, driving licence check, doctors check, and your supplied referees checked. It also means you can go on a relevent course when you register. It also means police know who to periodically check that gun cabinets are installed and secure when you renew the licence. There's no doubt many reasons, those are off the top of my head.

It may seem alien to Americans, but any change can be. People threw rubbish in the bin at home, and when the council gave everyone recycling bins, many whinged like gun nuts. As time went on, it's now a weird feeling if you put a recyclable item in general waste.

No...gun registrations don't do any of that.....

Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.


As to solving crimes....it doesn't...
10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry

Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.
Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.


-----

https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry



Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.

Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?

Registries are expensive. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.

No gun recovered. If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even theoretically helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.

Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.
====
In the Pittsburgh Tribune Review: Pa. gun registry waste of money, resources - Crime Prevention Research Center

Gun-control advocates have long claimed that a comprehensive registry would be an effective safety tool. Their reasoning is straightforward: If a gun has been left at a crime scene, the registry will link the crime gun back to the criminal.

Nice logic, but reality has never worked that way. Crime guns are rarely left at crime scenes. The few that are have been unregistered — criminals are not stupid enough to leave behind a gun that’s registered to them. When a gun is left at the scene, it is usually because the criminal has been seriously injured or killed. These crimes would have been solved even without registration.

Registration hasn’t worked in Pennsylvania or other places. During a 2001 lawsuit, the Pennsylvania State Police could not identify a specific crime that had been solved through the registration system from 1901 to 2001, though they did claim that it had “assisted” in a total of four cases but they could provide no details.

During a 2013 deposition, the Washington, D.C., police chief said that she could not “recall any specific instance where registration records were used to determine who committed a crime.”

When I testified before the Hawaii State Senate in 2000, the Honolulu chief of police also stated that he couldn’t find any crimes that had been solved due to registration and licensing. The chief also said that his officers devoted about 50,000 hours each year to registering and licensing guns. This time is being taken away from traditional, time-tested law enforcement activities.

Of course, many are concerned that registration lists will eventually be used to confiscate people’s guns. Given that such lists have been used to force people to turn in guns in California, Connecticut, New York and Chicago, these fears aren’t entirely unjustified.

Instead of wasting money and precious police time on a gun registry that won’t solve crime, Pennsylvania should get rid of the program that we already have and spend our resources on programs that matter. Traditional policing works, and we should all be concerned that this bill will keep even more officers from important duties.


Bullet tracking..

Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."

The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."

 

[Captain Caveman]

No...gun registrations don't do any of that.....

Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.


As to solving crimes....it doesn't...
10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry

Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.
Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.


-----

https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry



Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.

Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?

Registries are expensive. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.

No gun recovered. If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even theoretically helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.

Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.
====
In the Pittsburgh Tribune Review: Pa. gun registry waste of money, resources - Crime Prevention Research Center

Gun-control advocates have long claimed that a comprehensive registry would be an effective safety tool. Their reasoning is straightforward: If a gun has been left at a crime scene, the registry will link the crime gun back to the criminal.

Nice logic, but reality has never worked that way. Crime guns are rarely left at crime scenes. The few that are have been unregistered — criminals are not stupid enough to leave behind a gun that’s registered to them. When a gun is left at the scene, it is usually because the criminal has been seriously injured or killed. These crimes would have been solved even without registration.

Registration hasn’t worked in Pennsylvania or other places. During a 2001 lawsuit, the Pennsylvania State Police could not identify a specific crime that had been solved through the registration system from 1901 to 2001, though they did claim that it had “assisted” in a total of four cases but they could provide no details.

During a 2013 deposition, the Washington, D.C., police chief said that she could not “recall any specific instance where registration records were used to determine who committed a crime.”

When I testified before the Hawaii State Senate in 2000, the Honolulu chief of police also stated that he couldn’t find any crimes that had been solved due to registration and licensing. The chief also said that his officers devoted about 50,000 hours each year to registering and licensing guns. This time is being taken away from traditional, time-tested law enforcement activities.

Of course, many are concerned that registration lists will eventually be used to confiscate people’s guns. Given that such lists have been used to force people to turn in guns in California, Connecticut, New York and Chicago, these fears aren’t entirely unjustified.

Instead of wasting money and precious police time on a gun registry that won’t solve crime, Pennsylvania should get rid of the program that we already have and spend our resources on programs that matter. Traditional policing works, and we should all be concerned that this bill will keep even more officers from important duties.


Bullet tracking..

Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."

The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."

Yes they do do that. That's why they are there, dummy.

 

[Captain Caveman]

That is incorrect. It has been a historical fact for thousands of years.



I doubt that is true. But to the extent that it is true, those people are wrong.



That is incorrect. Americans have always cherished freedom, and Americans will continue to do so until the end of time.

And we aren't the only ones. There is a stretch of countries from Finland to Switzerland who also will continue to demand their freedom.



That is incorrect. I have a very sound sense of America's attitudes. We will cherish the Second Amendment forever.

Unfortunately, your interpretation of freedom differs to the world, that's a fact. If you struggle with the issue, go see the thread on Freedoms and liberties. If you think it's guns, some idiot(s) has written something down that has duped you.

Thousands of years

 

[Captain Caveman]

The second thing you need to understand is that society's customs, the culture, the borders, the laws etc.. don't remain static

You just described Europe and the influx of violent, 3rd world males who have now taken over the drug trade from Britain to Sweden.........and they don't care about western culture, values, traditions or laws, and they don't respect your police....

As they fight over drug turf, they are going to need guns.....and you won't be able to stop the flood..

Yes, they fight over drugs. Did you know we're on a gun thread??

 

[Captain Caveman]

No.....it won't result in results no matter how long they are in place...

Americans use their guns to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings and mass public shootings.....they are also seen as a way to prevent the democrat party brown shirts, blm, and antifa, from burning and looting your businesses and homes, and from murdering you and your family....this is why more and more blacks, hispanics and women are buying and carrying guns in record numbers...

You don't understand the issues...

You don't understand basic life and you believe the most idiotic bullshit. But not only that, you repeat the bullshit.

 

[2aguy]

Yes they do do that. That's why they are there, dummy.

I just linked to why they don’t work….you should read the post.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, they fight over drugs. Did you know we're on a gun thread??

Yes….and what do the drug gangs use?

 

[Open Bolt]

Unfortunately, your interpretation of freedom differs to the world, that's a fact.

I am far from convinced that that is a fact. I doubt that you can establish that it is.

But if it really is a fact, then those other people are wrong.

America should force them to change their views and be like us.

If you struggle with the issue, go see the thread on Freedoms and liberties.

I've already addressed it.

If you think it's guns, some idiot(s) has written something down that has duped you.

No. I have not been duped by thousands of years of human history.

Keeping and bearing arms really has been a key right of free people for thousands of years.

Thousands of years

Yes. Keeping and bearing arms has been a key right of free people for thousands of years.

You don't understand basic life and you believe the most idiotic bullshit. But not only that, you repeat the bullshit.

That is incorrect. Everything that 2aguy says is true.

 

[Captain Caveman]

I am far from convinced that that is a fact. I doubt that you can establish that it is.

But if it really is a fact, then those other people are wrong.

America should force them to change their views and be like us.



I've already addressed it.



No. I have not been duped by thousands of years of human history.

Keeping and bearing arms really has been a key right of free people for thousands of years.



Yes. Keeping and bearing arms has been a key right of free people for thousands of years.



That is incorrect. Everything that 2aguy says is true.

Correct, you repeat 2aguy's bullshit. It must be out of the same NRA gun nut pamphlet

 

[Open Bolt]

Correct, you repeat 2aguy's bullshit.

Facts and reality are hardly BS.

It must be out of the same NRA gun nut pamphlet

Your namecalling is evidence that you cannot defend your ideology with facts or logic.